221 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Is that what happened? Wow, I was way off. I assumed that the "Fiona" in Val Royeaux was the Envy Demon, ala the Lord Seeker. I mean, it was already in Val Royeaux, yeah? The Lord Seeker Demon couldn't have gone that far, in that amount of time. How hard would it be, to do a switcheroo, to get the Inquisitor moving?

But then, does that make any sense? LOL I think I just make stuff up as I go.

It makes way more sense than everyone being affected by the time travel with the exception of the party.

[Patchwork]

I would conscript the mages on my canon run because they really messed up at Redcliffe but I want Leliana as Divine and the easiest way to get that is to form an alliance with the mages. But I don't like it, it's letting them get away with their stupidity and I hate the war table mission were you either have to send your people to help fix the arling or take out a loan to cover the damages done by the rebel mages. I'd have liked an option where the mages themselves try to make amends, sure it would be less successful and maybe you miss out on the tourney mission but at least they'd be taking responsibility for their own actions. Freedom doesn't mean you get to do whatever you like with no consequences.   

 

Vivienne isn't wrong when she says mages live in their mage verses templar/chantry bubble not considering wider world problems. I would have liked the alliance a lot more if it's the path that forces mages essentially grow up- figuratively move out of their parents place and start paying their own way. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

In Tevinter, the indentured servitude was supposed to be temporary, and in time, who knows, the mages might've become their own masters

And in the Circle, they can become respected Enchanters or Formari and make good lives for themselves.
 

in a country that idolizes mage and respects mages.

If by "mages" you mean "magisters," then yes.

 

Outside of their exclusive elite circle, though, mages are no better off than anyone else -- only difference is that they could mayyybe rise to the top someday. And what discrimination the mages may fear of from the Templars they will face from just about everyone in Tevinter, where they will be seen as dirty refugees from the south.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I would conscript the mages on my canon run because they really messed up at Redcliffe but I want Leliana as Divine and the easiest way to get that is to form an alliance with the mages. But I don't like it, it's letting them get away with their stupidity and I hate the war table mission were you either have to send your people to help fix the arling or take out a loan to cover the damages done by the rebel mages. I'd have liked an option where the mages themselves try to make amends, sure it would be less successful and maybe you miss out on the tourney mission but at least they'd be taking responsibility for their own actions. Freedom doesn't mean you get to do whatever you like with no consequences.   

 

Vivienne isn't wrong when she says mages live in their mage verses templar/chantry bubble not considering wider world problems. I would have liked the alliance a lot more if it's the path that forces mages essentially grow up- figuratively move out of their parents place and start paying their own way. 

 

I think you could also just conscript the templars instead.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I think you could also just conscript the templars instead.

. Not Everton wants to side with he Templars

[Vit246]

And in the Circle, they can become respected Enchanters or Formari and make good lives for themselves.

 

Perhaps in a new Circle. Not like the one run by the Chantry and its Templars.

[Ranadiel Marius]

I always thought the mages had no choice in allying with Tevinter? They were losing the war and it was a choice between Tevinter or death?

There has been discussion on the forums on this subject, and there is a potentially strong argument that the mages severely weakened their tactical position for no gain whatsoever by allying with Alexius. How strong depends on some factors which the game never touches upon.

[Vit246]

There has been discussion on the forums on this subject, and there is a potentially strong argument that the mages severely weakened their tactical position for no gain whatsoever by allying with Alexius. How strong depends on some factors which the game never touches upon.

Blame the writers. Bioware tends to do this sort of thing, I think.

[Raiil]

There has been discussion on the forums on this subject, and there is a potentially strong argument that the mages severely weakened their tactical position for no gain whatsoever by allying with Alexius. How strong depends on some factors which the game never touches upon.

 

It is a very poor tactical choice. And that happens when you're backed into the corner and you're not a strategist. Fiona isn't looking for victory at this point- she's looking for survival, for her people.

 

She's still dumber than a bag of dirty socks but I don't expect sound tactical advice from someone who hasn't been a soldier for like what, thirty years and didn't display all that much cunning beforehand. Fiona is worldly by mage standards but that's not exactly a high bar, is it?

[Iakus]

Perhaps in a new Circle. Not like the one run by the Chantry and its Templars.

Not one run by Tevinter either.

 

Liberati are only able to achieve the lowest rungs of mage society.  They'd still be an underclass even in a nation run by mages.

[SgtSteel91]

The way my Inquisitor can rationalize an alliance with the mages, is that a conscription (i.e. forced subjugation) might backfire with a group of people that has been fighting to get away from their system of subjugation for years.

 

That or give them a second chance to prove to the Inquisition they can organize themselves and won't cause trouble again. If they can't, then the Inquisition starts putting restrictions on them (that's the gist of the "Think of it as probation" option to tell Cullen). Then again, this was the reasoning of an optimistic Inquisitor who showed their enemies mercy and gave second chances.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Perhaps in a new Circle. Not like the one run by the Chantry and its Templars.

No need for a new one. The Circle as is offers that opportunity to its mages.

[Han Shot First]

I favor conscription for either faction, because both no longer deserve freedom. They are both equally responsible for the chaos, death & destruction of the Mage-Templar War. 

[AlexiaRevan]

Ally with Mages . because otherwise this whole 'War' would have been for nothing . 

 

But I do admit , conscripting them make them whine Less (same with templar) . And both side sucked anyway....

[Ryzaki]

The difference being that the leaders of the Templars are all dead or exiled by the end of that quest, so disbanding the Order and conscripting them doesn't seem to serve much purpose. Also, Ser Barris.

 

Eh it still does. It sends a message. Plus I couldn't wait for them to scramble and get themselves back in line.

[Addai]

All the law and order types miss the boat. The bottom line for me is what will get you the most out of your troops. Conscription for the templars is a no brainer IMO- they're a military organization whose chain of command has completely broken down. They'll respond best to a restored CoC. The mages are people who were prisoners all their lives and just wanted a chance at freedom, or were dragged into the war by others. Making them prisoners is recipe for resentment and more rebellion. Let them prove they can rule themselves while helping Thedas out of a jam, and you're more apt to get a good result, IMO.

[Han Shot First]

All the law and order types miss the boat. The bottom line for me is what will get you the most out of your troops. Conscription for the templars is a no brainer IMO- they're a military organization whose chain of command has completely broken down. They'll respond best to a restored CoC. The mages are people who were prisoners all their lives and just wanted a chance at freedom, or were dragged into the war by others. Making them prisoners is recipe for resentment and more rebellion. Let them prove they can rule themselves while helping Thedas out of a jam, and you're more apt to get a good result, IMO.

 

The mages lost any right to freedom when they turned on the people who have them shelter and seized the town of Redcliffe. They also willingly allied with the Venatori.

[NaclynE]

Why not Cassandra? She creates a new Circle with more freedom than ever, Mages govern themselves.

 

Well from my outcome of picking Cassandra as the divine I made a huge mistake where it seems like I really didn't end the war at all. I had Orlias act all uneasy despite Celene and Brialla ruling side by side. I had the mages split faction where some mages were all gung ho for the changes while other mages wanted a true resolution and wanted to start a mage VS mage war. Even with Cassandra being divine people don't know what to make of her and plan on "testing her abilities as divine" (potential wars, assassinations, and random plots). Bottom line with Cassandra from the ending I got I made a grevious mistake that defenetly will spawn a sequel type plot.

 

There has been discussion on the forums on this subject, and there is a potentially strong argument that the mages severely weakened their tactical position for no gain whatsoever by allying with Alexius. How strong depends on some factors which the game never touches upon.

 

Well it seemed like it was touched well enough. From what Fiona said they were getting there butts kicked by the templars and were losing numbers. They did have reinforcements on there way (she mentions where from) but they were going to take forever to show up in this pivitol part of the war. She felt like she needed to make a quick decision by turning to outside factions so she went to Alexius. However when Alexius discusses stuff with your inq his "true plans" get exposed which leaves her like wtf. To me this wasn't a 'bad writing' thing at all. I think people need to explore all of the dialog trees. I still don't understand the hatemail for Fiona but yeah she idioted by going to a tevintir magistrate and say "help us?" and expect everything to be all hunky-doorie for the decision she made. 

 

It is a very poor tactical choice. And that happens when you're backed into the corner and you're not a strategist. Fiona isn't looking for victory at this point- she's looking for survival, for her people.

 

She's still dumber than a bag of dirty socks but I don't expect sound tactical advice from someone who hasn't been a soldier for like what, thirty years and didn't display all that much cunning beforehand. Fiona is worldly by mage standards but that's not exactly a high bar, is it?

 

Agreed. She was fighting a losing battle where the templars were winning so she made a stupid decision because she had no choice. I can see why Vivianne feels she's not a good leader but the funny thing is why didn't anyone else take up the reigns?

 

All the law and order types miss the boat. The bottom line for me is what will get you the most out of your troops. Conscription for the templars is a no brainer IMO- they're a military organization whose chain of command has completely broken down. They'll respond best to a restored CoC. The mages are people who were prisoners all their lives and just wanted a chance at freedom, or were dragged into the war by others. Making them prisoners is recipe for resentment and more rebellion. Let them prove they can rule themselves while helping Thedas out of a jam, and you're more apt to get a good result, IMO.

 

Well....making the templars not equal partners to me would cause issues because like you said how mages are prisoners and shouldn't be treated like prisoners i feel like the templars should keep their feel of control. When I made Vivianne divine it seemed like she put the templars in check which they didn't mind and saw mages equal to themselves. From the ending I got it almost sounded like the templars became holy enforcers. Unlike Cassandra's ending it didn't cause any discontent and have the templars split into two templar factions.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The mages lost any right to freedom when they turned on the people who have them shelter and seized the town of Redcliffe. They also willingly allied with the Venatori.

 

To be fair, this is almost entirely Fiona's fault. Talk to the mage NPC's at Redcliffe, they almost all act as if this is a really bad idea and all feel betrayed by their leader for selling them to Tevinter behind their backs. 

[Lumix19]

The mages lost any right to freedom when they turned on the people who have them shelter and seized the town of Redcliffe. They also willingly allied with the Venatori.

Don't make this into another argument about whether the mages were brainwashed or not. And as above the point is not about rights (though I disagree with you completely) but what will give you the better result. And even Blackwall states that nobody likes working for their captors.

[SgtSteel91]

To be fair, this is almost entirely Fiona's fault. Talk to the mage NPC's at Redcliffe, they almost all act as if this is a really bad idea and all feel betrayed by their leader for selling them to Tevinter behind their backs. 

 

To be fair to Fiona, her options were safety and protection of her people from the Templars, then allowed to live free in a land where Mages aren't hated after being indentured servants for 10 years, including herself (she was a sex slave in her childhood and suffers PTSD from it, it's telling how desperate the situation was if she has that trauma and still agreed to be made a servant). Compared that to squatting indefinitely in a village where Mage animosity would be great in a land where the people were growing to dislike the Mage's presence because it was brining the war to their doorsteps, with no where else to go if they were to leave that village, and where any chance for peace in Southern Thedas evaporated with the Divine at the Conclave explosion, I can understand Fiona wanting to protect her people in desperation.

 

Add that Alexius went to a point in time where that desperation would be very high and had agents posing a refugees push Fiona into taking the deal (I really think that Mage in the Tavern who was in favor of the deal was one of those agents).

 

And that's all before Alexius starts raving about The Elder One becoming a God and Mages ruling the world, at which point Fiona says "You can't involve my people in this!" I would bet money if Alexius hadn't tried to erase you from time and gave up when you came back from the future, Fiona would have fought beside you to take down the Venatori, just like Ser Barris does with the Red Templars.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I prefer to ally with either the mages or the templars.

 

I am someone who is very big on freedom and individuality so naturally, the classical libertarian in me says no-no to conscription. I am also big on second chances, seeing as I have been granted a few myself. 
 

Putting someone under your hook and thumb is never a viable long term solution. Ever. I have lived most of my life under people trying to put me under their hook and thumb. It failed and all that ever did was make me resent these very people for quite a while before forgiving them. 

 

Additionally, in my mind, if you conscript either the mages or templars, you are stuck down a specific viewpoint. What do I mean by this ? I mean if you conscript them you clearly take the law and order approach. Now that is all nice and fuzzy but what happens when you move beyond mages or templars ? What about the Grey Wardens ? What about Orlesian rulers ? Will your law and order philosophy hold then ? Will you banish the Wardens ? I mean, you did not believe in second chances sufficiently to ally with either mages or templars so why do it for the Wardens ? Will you only ally with Gaspard since he is the potential ruler that is all about law and order. 

 

If you ally with either the mages or templar, it shows that you believe in second chances. It shows you as a ruler who have some ideals, some compassion that is worth standing up for. It also allows you more choices that do not contradict with your Inquisitor's personal philosophy. 

 

My reasons for allying with either the mages or templar, for sparing the Wardens, for freeing Thom Rainier, can be summarized by this dialogue. 

 

Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. 
Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them. 

[Addai]

The mages lost any right to freedom when they turned on the people who have them shelter and seized the town of Redcliffe. They also willingly allied with the Venatori.

The templars likewise attack the people of Redcliffe, according to the elven healer.

[Lady Elsa]

If you ally with either the mages or templar, it shows that you believe in second chances. It shows you as a ruler who have some ideals, some compassion that is worth standing up for. It also allows you more choices that do not contradict with your Inquisitor's personal philosophy. 

 

My reasons for allying with either the mages or templar, for sparing the Wardens, for freeing Thom Rainier, can be summarized by this dialogue. 

 

That's a completely valid point of view. 

 

However I think characters can have complex motivations as well as personal biases and can react to different choices/situations based on that and what is going on at the moment? For me this makes them more like real people. 

 

Most of the choices in DA games do not fall under a strict good/evil or order/freedom spectrum. The choices are not all equal to each other either. For example if the choice for the mages was between taking them into the Inquisition to give them another chance or allowing the Fereldan ruler to exile them from the country to face whatever (a choice similar to the Wardens) I would pick taking them in. However the situation of the two groups are not the same so I don't see the inconsistency. Likewise for Orlais, I don't see how backing Celene or Gaspard has anything to do with mages or wardens. My character might simply be unwilling to let Celene die or might think Gaspard is more competent, or they might be an elf and back Brialla purely because of her stance on elves? They might let Blackwall atone simply because he has been a friend/lover or because he is a capable fighter who can still contribute? Or they might let him rot because they can't forgive what he did or  because freeing him makes the inquisition look corrupt.

 

Everyone has their own views and preferences in role-playing so I don't think there is any right or wrong choice, only what feels good/right for the player and the character they are playing...

[Jaison1986]

The mages lost any right to freedom when they turned on the people who have them shelter and seized the town of Redcliffe. They also willingly allied with the Venatori.

 

That was Fiona's mistake, not the mages. Just talk with the mages at Redcliffe, and many of them will be unhappy with this new alliance. Should we punish an entire group for the mistakes of an single idiot?