221 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Elsa]

See for me the whole conscription as punishment would make sense if there was indication of any actual punishment later on in the game. As it is you can't even punish Fiona, you can't even chastise her verbally. So the only difference between conscription and alliance seems to be a matter of perception and personal head-canon.

 

What I would have liked for role-playing reasons is a wartable mission that would actually address what it means to have the mages as free allies or conscripted. For example if conscripted you would get a report that some of your soldiers/templars are hitting or harassing a mage and have the option to dismiss or have them punished, or you would get a report that your resources are getting strained because the mages had a lot of children/elderly with them that have to be taken care of and your choice is to 'find a way to look after them' or 'put them to work' or something. If the mages are free allies you would get reports of them helping around Skyhold, volunteering for missions and other positive things. Or you might get a mission where one of the younger mages gets possessed and the mages are shown to deal with it themselves?

 

I guess what I'm saying is it would have been nice to get to see more of the consequences of these choices, both good and bad, instead of having to imagine things based on personal views and bias...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

That was Fiona's mistake, not the mages. Just talk with the mages at Redcliffe, and many of them will be unhappy with this new alliance. Should we punish an entire group for the mistakes of an single idiot? 

 

Precisely. Most of the mages you speak to definitely do not want the alliance with The Vints. 

 

Then there is the thing with the end product. Bright Hand vs College of Enchanters. 

 

Bright Hand, at best, will be nothing more than a university under the patronage of a religion. Notice I said patronage, because if you make Leliana as the Divine, she just forms the Bright Hand under the Chantry but does not have Templars. The other potential Divine candidates go further than patronage with Cassandra taking the path of benign authority and Vivienne the same old solution.This restricts academic potential for to do research to publish something that is seen as against the Chantry will either be discouraged or banned on grounds of heresy. What is more, who's to say the successors of Divine Victoria might not be worse ? 

 

The College of Enchanters, at best, can be something like the Arcane University or Hogwarts or College of Winterhold or Mages Guild. You can freedom, which means academic freedom and since the mages are together instead of duking it out like The Vints, there is tremendous potential for growth of scholarship. One of the reasons magic in Thedas is the way it is the lack of cooperation amongst its practitioners. College of Enchanters will allow this. 

[Lady Elsa]

 

Bright Hand, at best, will be nothing more than a university under the patronage of a religion. Notice I said patronage, because if you make Leliana as the Divine, she just forms the Bright Hand under the Chantry but does not have Templars. 

 

As far as I understand Lelliana doesn't form the Bright Hand. The ex-rebels choose to form the order themselves under the patronage of the Inquisition and not the Chantry. If the Inquisitor is a mage themselves then they can be seen as the leader or patron of the Order. Lelliana doesn't create any institutions for the mages which means non-inquisition mages are free to form their own or join the Bright Hand or whatever. The only difference between those endings is where Fiona and the ex-rebels end up - leading a college independent of everyone or remaining with the Inquisition and providing a good example to others...

 

The Inquisition's mages – the former rebels led by Grand Enchanter Fiona – are left with a choice

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they remain with the Inquisition and form a new college called the Bright Hand. To many, this new order represents the best of mages, an example for the rest of Thedas to follow.

[Jaison1986]

See for me the whole conscription as punishment would make sense if there was indication of any actual punishment later on in the game. As it is you can't even punish Fiona, you can't even chastise her verbally. So the only difference between conscription and alliance seems to be a matter of perception and personal head-canon.

 

What I would have liked for role-playing reasons is a wartable mission that would actually address what it means to have the mages as free allies or conscripted. For example if conscripted you would get a report that some of your soldiers/templars are hitting or harassing a mage and have the option to dismiss or have them punished, or you would get a report that your resources are getting strained because the mages had a lot of children/elderly with them that have to be taken care of and your choice is to 'find a way to look after them' or 'put them to work' or something. If the mages are free allies you would get reports of them helping around Skyhold, volunteering for missions and other positive things. Or you might get a mission where one of the younger mages gets possessed and the mages are shown to deal with it themselves?

 

I guess what I'm saying is it would have been nice to get to see more of the consequences of these choices, both good and bad, instead of having to imagine things based on personal views and bias...

 

There is one instance were that happens. If you make the mages allies and then have either Alexius or Erimond made tranquil, they will revolt, and there will be an war table mission to adress their protests. You can have Josephine send soldiers to surpress the mages and shut them up, have Leliana assassinate the leaders of the prostest wich will scare them off or have Cullen send both mages and templars to talk with the protesters and reason with them. Such an war table mission won't happen at all however, if you conscript the mages.

[Lady Elsa]

There is one instance were that happens. If you make the mages allies and then have either Alexius or Erimond made tranquil, they will revolt, and there will be an war table mission to adress their protests. You can have Josephine send soldiers to surpress the mages and shut them up, have Leliana assassinate the leaders of the prostest wich will scare them off or have Cullen send both mages and templars to talk with the protesters and reason with them. Such an war table mission won't happen at all however, if you conscript the mages.

Fair enough. I never got this since I never made anyone tranquil but its a good example of the type of missions I wish there were more of and would be present in both versions to give you a chance to deal with various issues that could realistically arise when so many diverse factions are brought together. They would also provide good opportunities to define your inquisitor's personality/views and to make it feel like your choices affect the people around you in positive or negative ways.

 

I guess I would have liked more interactions and choices with the people I recruit into the inquisition in general (not just companions) The little quests you get to do with Sutherland's gang and seeing how it affects them were among my favourites...

[Lumix19]

 

As far as I understand Lelliana doesn't form the Bright Hand. The ex-rebels choose to form the order themselves under the patronage of the Inquisition and not the Chantry. If the Inquisitor is a mage themselves then they can be seen as the leader or patron of the Order. Lelliana doesn't create any institutions for the mages which means non-inquisition mages are free to form their own or join the Bright Hand or whatever. The only difference between those endings is where Fiona and the ex-rebels end up - leading a college independent of everyone or remaining with the Inquisition and providing a good example to others...

 

The Inquisition's mages – the former rebels led by Grand Enchanter Fiona – are left with a choice

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they remain with the Inquisition and form a new college called the Bright Hand. To many, this new order represents the best of mages, an example for the rest of Thedas to follow.

 

I actually think the distinction between the Bright Hand and the reformed College is quite a stark one. As above the College seems to be similar to be akin to the Arcane University of Skyrim

 

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they leave the Inquisition and reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.

The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

Whereas the Bright Hand seems less of an academic one and more, I think, a military one. There also, in my mind at least, seems to be a difference between the ultimate fate of all the Southern mages in relation to these institutions. I'm not sure whether all the southern mages will wish to join the Bright Hand whereas I see the College as more something which mages will seek out and where they will congregate.

 

Totally my interpretation though since the epilogues are kind of vague.

[Lady Elsa]

I actually think the distinction between the Bright Hand and the reformed College is quite a stark one. As above the College seems to be similar to be akin to the Arcane University of Skyrim

 

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they leave the Inquisition and reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.

The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

Whereas the Bright Hand seems less of an academic one and more, I think, a military one. There also, in my mind at least, seems to be a difference between the ultimate fate of all the Southern mages in relation to these institutions. I'm not sure whether all the southern mages will wish to join the Bright Hand whereas I see the College as more something which mages will seek out and where they will congregate.

 

Totally my interpretation though since the epilogues are kind of vague.

 

Fair enough. I am not against the College ending per-se its just not my preferred one.

 

Yeah all the epilogues are really short/vague which leaves a lot up for interpretation and personal preference and something the writers probably intended. I don't claim that my version is any more correct since there is no evidence either way. All it says for sure is that the Bright Hand forms willingly under the Inquisition and that they become a good example of mages. 

 

That means that in my fem/mage pt I can head-canon that the rebels form the Bright Hand with her as their patron/leader. That she grows Skyhold into a college/sanctuary for all mages to gather/learn should they wish to. It is not military since she is a diplomat/peacemaker. This is entirely my own interpretation but there is nothing in the epilogues to contradict it...

 

 

So the difference in my case is that the Order is guided/overseen by my mage Inky and like-minded mages, whereas the College in the other ending is set up/lead (again I have to assume) by people like Fiona. I trust my Inky to do right by mages more than I do Fiona or any of her supporters so it is my preferred ending.

[Lumix19]

Fair enough. I am not against the College ending per-se its just not my preferred one.

 

Yeah all the epilogues are really short/vague which leaves a lot up for interpretation and personal preference and something the writers probably intended. I don't claim that my version is any more correct since there is no evidence either way. All it says for sure is that the Bright Hand forms willingly under the Inquisition and that they become a good example of mages. 

 

That means that in my fem/mage pt I can head-canon that the rebels form the Bright Hand with her as their patron/leader. That she grows Skyhold into a college/sanctuary for all mages to gather/learn should they wish to. It is not military since she is a diplomat/peacemaker. This is entirely my own interpretation but there is nothing in the epilogues to contradict it...

 

 

So the difference in my case is that the Order is guided/overseen by my mage Inky and like-minded mages, whereas the College in the other ending is set up/lead (again I have to assume) by people like Fiona. I trust my Inky to do right by mages more than I do Fiona or any of her supporters so it is my preferred ending.

Perfectly understandable. I guess in future games we'll see exactly what the writers meant by those epilogues.

[Jaison1986]

Perfectly understandable. I guess in future games we'll see exactly what the writers meant by those epilogues.

 

I'm afraid we might only get mentions of what is happening with the mages, considering we are getting many mentions that DA games might be set in the nothen nations, away from places such as Orlais and Ferelden.

[Poledo]

I'm afraid we might only get mentions of what is happening with the mages, considering we are getting many mentions that DA games might be set in the nothen nations, away from places such as Orlais and Ferelden.

 

I think the mage/templar thing has mostly played out now - at least as far rivalry or treatment of each other is concerned. I'm sure Mages and Templars will both having prominent roles without being the prominent issue at hand.

[Lumix19]

I'm afraid we might only get mentions of what is happening with the mages, considering we are getting many mentions that DA games might be set in the nothen nations, away from places such as Orlais and Ferelden.

Yes I'm hoping for Tevinter myself. I don't mind information shared through codex entries though, some are nicely informative whilst still being hilarious.

[Iakus]

 

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they leave the Inquisition and reform the College of Enchanters as a new order.

The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems.

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

What's really interesting is that, minus the Chantry oversight, this is pretty much why the Circles formed in the first place.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

As far as I understand Lelliana doesn't form the Bright Hand. The ex-rebels choose to form the order themselves under the patronage of the Inquisition and not the Chantry. If the Inquisitor is a mage themselves then they can be seen as the leader or patron of the Order. Lelliana doesn't create any institutions for the mages which means non-inquisition mages are free to form their own or join the Bright Hand or whatever. The only difference between those endings is where Fiona and the ex-rebels end up - leading a college independent of everyone or remaining with the Inquisition and providing a good example to others...

 

The Inquisition's mages – the former rebels led by Grand Enchanter Fiona – are left with a choice

When Leliana disbands the Circles, they remain with the Inquisition and form a new college called the Bright Hand. To many, this new order represents the best of mages, an example for the rest of Thedas to follow.

 

 

Ah. I see. Thank you for the correction. Interesting. So they voluntarily choose to remain and it is not forced upon them. 

 

But how does on roleplay as a Mage Trevelyan who dislikes Templars & the Chantry's involvement and conscripts the Rebel Mages ? I am RP-ing as that kind of character now but don't know how to justify wanting to be free of Chantry influence and favoring conscription of Rebel Mages. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

But how does on roleplay as a Mage Trevelyan who dislikes Templars & the Chantry's involvement and conscripts the Rebel Mages ? I am RP-ing as that kind of character now but don't know how to justify wanting to be free of Chantry influence and favoring conscription of Rebel Mages. 

 

Perhaps an inquisitor that conscripts the mages as punishment for the sheer incompetence and irresponsibility they displayed? The inquisitor could be all for mage freedom, but also believe that freedom comes with responsibility.

[Addai]

What's really interesting is that, minus the Chantry oversight, this is pretty much why the Circles formed in the first place.

Only in Tevinter. In southern Thedas the Chantry created the Circles as an alternative to genociding all mages, which is what some Chantry folk wanted to do but they realized they needed some spare mages for Blights.

[Poledo]

Ah. I see. Thank you for the correction. Interesting. So they voluntarily choose to remain and it is not forced upon them. 

 

But how does on roleplay as a Mage Trevelyan who dislikes Templars & the Chantry's involvement and conscripts the Rebel Mages ? I am RP-ing as that kind of character now but don't know how to justify wanting to be free of Chantry influence and favoring conscription of Rebel Mages. 

 

Because the Chantry failed and the templars were allowed to perform some heinous acts upon many mages. It's easy to want to separate from that. Conscripting the mages does not mean you will treat them the same way - and after seeing what they allowed to happen in Redcliffe, you can consider it a choice made in a moment of anger and disgust. Not just for what they did by betraying Redcliffe's trust and evicting the Arl, but by what their ignorance could have allowed to happen if Alexius had not been stopped by the inky.

[Lady Elsa]

Ah. I see. Thank you for the correction. Interesting. So they voluntarily choose to remain and it is not forced upon them. 

 

But how does on roleplay as a Mage Trevelyan who dislikes Templars & the Chantry's involvement and conscripts the Rebel Mages ? I am RP-ing as that kind of character now but don't know how to justify wanting to be free of Chantry influence and favoring conscription of Rebel Mages. 

 

The other posters gave some good reasons - a decision made out of anger is pretty plausible depending on Inky's personality

 

My mage Trevelyan was anti-chantry in so far as she thought the chantry really screwed up when it came to managing both mages and templars. 

 

She also thought the rebellion was a mistake/badly timed and made things worst. She wants mages to have independence but not through violence. The rebels are not representative of all Thedas mages, many of them did not even vote for rebellion in the first place but they followed Fiona, either out of fear or meekness and none of them stood up to her.

 

As a player I can have sympathy for them but my mage was not there in Asunder, nor was she in the rebellion, she also comes from a liberal Circle. All she sees is an incompetent leader and her followers who have made poor choices and caused a lot of damage. Desperation can be a mitigating circumstance but it is not an excuse. She feels the rebels need to be held accountable, to take responsibility for their actions, to earn her's and the Inquisition's trust. I play her as 'firm but fair' type character. I think with this kind of stuff  its important to separate what you as the player know of events and groups and what your character knows and has experienced...

 

Also there is no in-game reason to think that conscription means you treat them badly, to me it is more like 'immediate trust' vs 'letting them earn it'

[MisterJB]

That was Fiona's mistake, not the mages. Just talk with the mages at Redcliffe, and many of them will be unhappy with this new alliance. Should we punish an entire group for the mistakes of an single idiot? 

No.

Should we ignore the fact mage freedom led to violence, mage refusing to police themselves and the spread of Tevinter influence?

[Lumix19]

No.
Should we ignore the fact mage freedom led to violence, mage refusing to police themselves and the spread of Tevinter influence?

Ignoring of course that the mage freedom epilogue implies none of this.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Ignoring of course that the mage freedom epilogue implies none of this.

And conveniently forgetting all the Templar abuses that caused the rebellion in the first place.

[MisterJB]

Ignoring of course that the mage freedom epilogue implies none of this.

I am referring to the events of the game. Mages were free and there was a war, they washed their hands of mages attacking the people of the Hinterlands and a Tevinter occupied a portion of Ferelden.

[SgtSteel91]

Or that the majority of Mages never wanted to start a war, they just wanted to vote to govern themselves, and the Templars were the ones who were made it one.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I am referring to the events of the game. Mages were free and there was a war, they washed their hands of mages attacking the people of the Hinterlands and a Tevinter occupied a portion of Ferelden.

And the Templars conveniently didn't care about the ones who left to kill anyone regardless of whether they were mages or not, forget how the leadership was corrupt beyond reason, or how the Templars were the ones who started the war when they started to turn the circles into actual prisons or how they tried to imprison or kill mages simply for having a meeting and a vote. Ah, that templar hypocrisy.

[ElementalFury106]

Ah. I see. Thank you for the correction. Interesting. So they voluntarily choose to remain and it is not forced upon them. 

 

But how does on roleplay as a Mage Trevelyan who dislikes Templars & the Chantry's involvement and conscripts the Rebel Mages ? I am RP-ing as that kind of character now but don't know how to justify wanting to be free of Chantry influence and favoring conscription of Rebel Mages. 

 

Easily. I was a Mage Trevelyan and I didn't think twice between allying or conscripting the Mages. They absolutely did not earn an alliance after the damage they caused. Fiona could not be allowed to continue leading the Mages as free allies.

 

Being a Mage myself just made Trevelyan more aware of why most Mages need oversight. The consequences of their mistakes are astronomical. It took an actual Mage to truly understand that Mages do not deserve true freedom, yet.

[MisterJB]

The question remains.

Mages claimed they would not abuse their powers, that they could be trusted to police and govern themselves, that they had no intentions of placing mages in positions of power over normal people.

However, one year of freedom and there are mages in the Hinterlands who believe their magic entitles them to everything including the lives of others, the mage leadership has washed their hands of this problem and there is a Tevinter army ocuppying an arling in Ferelden.

Therefore, the mages broke every single one of their claims. Is this something that should be ignored?

Because that is allying with the mages implies.