221 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

The question remains.

Mages claimed they would not abuse their powers, that they could be trusted to police and govern themselves, that they had no intentions of placing mages in positions of power over normal people.

However, one year of freedom and there are mages in the Hinterlands who believe their magic entitles them to everything including the lives of others, the mage leadership has washed their hands of this problem and there is a Tevinter army ocuppying an arling in Ferelden.

Therefore, the mages broke every single one of their claims. Is this something that should be ignored?

Because that is allying with the mages implies.

 

I believe they could have solved those problems if the Templars weren't hounding to kill them and beating them down in the war. And they do get their act together and don't cause trouble, even as allies, when they no longer have Templars to fear because of the Inquisition's support.

[Poledo]

I believe they could have solved those problems if the Templars weren't hounding to kill them and beating them down in the war. And they do get their act together and don't cause trouble, even as allies, when they no longer have Templars to fear because of the Inquisition's support.

 

The templars were scattered, half of them corrupted to red lyrium. Then there are the psychos in the hinterlands warring with the other psycho mages in the hinterlands. These are not the mages in Redcliffe. The mages in Redcliffe were given refuge by the Arl or the crown. They were in no immediate danger at that time. Obviously Redcliffe could not be permanent but Fiona had no need to make a snap decision. She had time to ponder if selling themselves back into servitude after fighting so hard to be free was a real neato idea or not. She had time to think on whether evicting the very people who were sheltering her was a good idea or not.

 

Her decision makes no sense outside of the fact the writers needed it to fit what they wanted to accomplish. Sadly it just made an otherwise good character seem like a total twit.

[Kurt M.]

Not always true. I did both of those things and got Cassandra.

 

How? I really think conscription is for the best, but I really don't wanna lose Halamshiral's Amulet of Power for the Inquisitor

 

And I really don't want Vivienne as Divine.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The templars were scattered, half of them corrupted to red lyrium. Then there are the psychos in the hinterlands warring with the other psycho mages in the hinterlands. These are not the mages in Redcliffe. The mages in Redcliffe were given refuge by the Arl or the crown. They were in no immediate danger at that time. Obviously Redcliffe could not be permanent but Fiona had no need to make a snap decision. She had time to ponder if selling themselves back into servitude after fighting so hard to be free was a real neato idea or not. She had time to think on whether evicting the very people who were sheltering her was a good idea or not.

 

Her decision makes no sense outside of the fact the writers needed it to fit what they wanted to accomplish. Sadly it just made an otherwise good character seem like a total twit.

I think you should also remember that Fiona's first choice was to ally with the Inquisition but Alexius used time magic to ally with the mages two days after the breach opened. The desperation after the explosion plus infiltrating venatori supporting the alliance means that Fiona submitted to peer pressure. Still, I agree that is seems more like just an excuse to make people hate the mages and go to the Templars.

 

How? I really think conscription is for the best, but I really don't wanna lose Halamshiral's Amulet of Power for the Inquisitor

 

And I really don't want Vivienne as Divine.

Too bad Conscripting the mage pretty much assures Vivienne becomes Divine if you don't support someone else.

[Kurt M.]

Too bad Conscripting the mage pretty much assures Vivienne becomes Divine if you don't support someone else.

 

I did supported Cassandra in my last playthough! And yet that beotch became the Divine!

[MisterJB]

I believe they could have solved those problems if the Templars weren't hounding to kill them and beating them down in the war. And they do get their act together and don't cause trouble, even as allies, when they no longer have Templars to fear because of the Inquisition's support.

Ok so, we should ignore the fact they broke every assurance they gave, make up excuses for it and hope poverty or disease or manipulation or temptation or war or exploitation or banditry or a thousands other things that drive people to desperation and which are not Templars won't "make" them do it again?

[SgtSteel91]

Ok so, we should ignore the fact they broke every assurance they gave, make up excuses for it and hope poverty or disease or manipulation or temptation or war or exploitation or banditry or a thousands other things that drive people to desperation and which are not Templars won't "make" them do it again?

 

With the support of the Inquisition, no.

[Lady Elsa]

With the support of the Inquisition, no.

The inquisition can provide dedicated mage counsellors and therapists to help mages deal with stress and anger management. Same with templars come to think of it except with added rehab facilities. Thedas clearly needs some medical breakthroughs, Skyhold already has the surgeon lady, now we need some mental health professionals

 

I think I will have my Inky look into that...

[Jaison1986]

Ok so, we should ignore the fact they broke every assurance they gave, make up excuses for it and hope poverty or disease or manipulation or temptation or war or exploitation or banditry or a thousands other things that drive people to desperation and which are not Templars won't "make" them do it again?

 

And when the templars do the exact same things, what is your excuse?

[SgtSteel91]

The inquisition can provide dedicated mage counsellors and therapists to help mages deal with stress and anger management. Same with templars come to think of it except with added rehab facilities. Thedas clearly needs some medical breakthroughs, Skyhold already has the surgeon lady, now we need some mental health professionals

 

I think I will have my Inky look into that...

 

This seriously. Imo, the Circles were never a place that had any sort of psychiatric support for Mages. I would say it added stress to Mages with the Templars constantly monitoring them necks and ready to kill all of them, the Cantry's doctrine all but blaming Mages for the world's trouble and having that and being told that all their life, and allowing punishments like solitary confinement, which can seriously cause mental problems.

[Boost32]

And when the templars do the exact same things, what is your excuse?

there should be no excuse, if a templar breaks their vow they should be court martialed

[Jaison1986]

there should be no excuse, if a templar breaks their vow they should be court martialed

 

That's the thing, that hardly happens. Alrik and Ser Karras never got court martialed for being rapists. It took an outsider to put them down, or the templar knight that ignored royal orders and attacked the grey wardens for Anders conscription. Did we ever saw an templar criminal getting punished for abuses without the protagonist intervention? Even the most pro templar players have to admit the having the circle under the Inquisition supervision is more appealing then handing the mages over to the templars, that have been proved to be corrupt and malicious time and again.

[thesuperdarkone2]

That's the thing, that hardly happens. Alrik and Ser Karras never got court martialed for being rapists. It took an outsider to put them down, or the templar knight that ignored royal orders and attacked the grey wardens for Anders conscription. Did we ever saw an templar criminal getting punished for abuses without the protagonist intervention? Even the most pro templar players have to admit the having the circle under the Inquisition supervision is more appealing then handing the mages over to the templars, that have been proved to be corrupt and malicious time and again.

Don't forget how the Seekers, the people who are supposed to stop Templar corruption, knew about what Meredith was doing but chose to ignore it. How many other similar cases of corruption were ignored? Considering Inquisition outright revealed that Templar leadership was corrupt as hell, that pretty much proves the Templars were a corrupt institute before Inquisition. Finally glad to be rid of it.

 

Also, if people say mages can't police mages, then the Chantry can't police itself which pretty much means templar abuses are inevitable

[SgtSteel91]

That's the thing, that hardly happens. Alrik and Ser Karras never got court martialed for being rapists. It took an outsider to put them down, or the templar knight that ignored royal orders and attacked the grey wardens for Anders conscription. Did we ever saw an templar criminal getting punished for abuses without the protagonist intervention? Even the most pro templar players have to admit the having the circle under the Inquisition supervision is more appealing then handing the mages over to the templars, that have been proved to be corrupt and malicious time and again.

 

And when we see it happen, it's Samson getting thrown out of the Order because he was helping a Mage send letters to a lover.

[thesuperdarkone2]

And when we see it happen, it's Samson getting thrown out of the Order because he was helping a Mage send letters to a lover.

Don't forget the codex entry for Templars outright says that the Chantry prefers fantical templars to moral templars. In other words, the Chantry would prefer someone like Meredith or Lambert to someone like Evangeline or Barris. 

 

Putting fanatics in positions of power over people is just a recipe for disaster.

[Boost32]

That's the thing, that hardly happens. Alrik and Ser Karras never got court martialed for being rapists. It took an outsider to put them down, or the templar knight that ignored royal orders and attacked the grey wardens for Anders conscription. Did we ever saw an templar criminal getting punished for abuses without the protagonist intervention? Even the most pro templar players have to admit the having the circle under the Inquisition supervision is more appealing then handing the mages over to the templars, that have been proved to be corrupt and malicious time and again.

No we dont, the templars clearly needs a better oversight. And I dont think the Circles should be handled by the Inquisition, its a paramillitary force and could very well abuse the mages powers. The Chantry, to me, its the better choice to handle the Circles andI think the templars are necessary to counter bad mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

No we dont, the templars clearly needs a better oversight. And I dont think the Circles should be handled by the Inquisition, its a paramillitary force and could very well abuse the mages powers. The Chantry, to me, its the better choice to handle the Circles andI think the templars are necessary to counter bad mages.

If you think the Chantry can police itself, why can't mages police themselves?

[Boost32]

If you think the Chantry can police itself, why can't mages police themselves?

sorry i didnt understand what you mean bt the Chantry can police itself, the Chantry is a religious institution, why it should police itself? Or do you mean why I think its better for the Chantry to police the mages instead of mages watching themselves?

[Lady Elsa]

 

This seriously. Imo, the Circles were never a place that had any sort of psychiatric support for Mages. 

 

The Circles and by extension the Chantry never seemed to provide psychiatric support for anyone, mage or templar, which imo contributed to a lot of the problems. The Harrowing was meant to be a kind of stress test for mages but it comes off as too extreme, especially with the whole failure=death, not to mention creating more fear/resentment between the two groups. Tranquillity is just a terrible option, period.

 

Likewise the Templars might have been a different case altogether had they had regular counselling and evaluations. The whole 'preference for religious fanatics' when it came to recruiting pretty much guaranteed they would end up with a lot of basket cases... 

 

Ideally these are all things that need to be reformed no matter what side was supported...

[SgtSteel91]

 

The Harrowing was meant to be a kind of stress test for mages but it comes off as too extreme, especially with the whole failure=death, not to mention creating more fear/resentment between the two groups. Tranquillity is just a terrible option, period.

 

 

It doesn't help that the Harrowing is kept a secret so Mages can't even prepare themselves for such a test and, if you agree with Solas, it creates an unneeded fear of Sprits.

[MisterJB]

And when the templars do the exact same things, what is your excuse?

I'm not making up excuses for anyone. Why have all mage supporters but one tried to redirect blame onto the Templars rather than answer whether we should ignore the fact the mages broke every assurance they gave people and worse, reward them with an alliance?

 

 

That's the thing, that hardly happens. Alrik and Ser Karras never got court martialed for being rapists.

They took steps to ensure they wouldn't be discovered which means they feared punishment which means Templars who break the rules are, indeed, punished.

 

Did we ever saw an templar criminal getting punished for abuses without the protagonist intervention?

Did we ever see mages policing each other? No.

Well, that means they can't ever. That is the standard you use for Templars, after all.

 

Even the most pro templar PLAYERS have to admit the having the circle under the Inquisition supervision is more appealing then handing the mages over to the templars, that have been proved to be corrupt and malicious time and again.

More appealing for whom, exactly?

 

Also, an alliance does not place the Circle under the supervision of the Inquisition.

[MisterJB]

It's the freaking Middle Ages. There is no such thing as psychiatric help.

[Jaison1986]

 

I'm not making up excuses for anyone. Why have all mage supporters but one tried to redirect blame onto the Templars rather than answer whether we should ignore the fact the mages broke every assurance they gave people and worse, reward them with an alliance?

 

 

They took steps to ensure they wouldn't be discovered which means they feared punishment which means Templars who break the rules are, indeed, punished.

 

Did we ever see mages policing each other? No.

Well, that means they can't ever. That is the standard you use for Templars, after all.

 

More appealing for whom, exactly?

 

Also, an alliance does not place the Circle under the supervision of the Inquisition.

 

 

The point these people make is that the mages wouldn't resort to these foolishness if the templars didn't drove them to desperate acts.

 

Not aways done hidden thought. Meredith had an squad that openly murdered defenseless civilians for showing symphaty to mages. Again, never held accountable and it took Hawke to kill them.

 

Maybe we never saw mages policing themselves because the Chantry never gave them an chance to start with. If you give them freedom by divine Leliana, guess what? They are doing well enough without coming to blows with the common people.

 

I was not talking about an alliance, but conscription.

[Lady Elsa]

It's the freaking Middle Ages. There is no such thing as psychiatric help.

 

I realize this and my first post was more musing than serious.   The latter post was more of the ideal world/what if variety. Still its obvious that many characters and factions in the story suffer from trauma or could otherwise benefit from some form of support even if modern-type-therapy is implausible...

 

I mean don't our pcs usually have to deal with/fix everyone's personal issues anyway? They could start their own training

 

Also I seem to remember a sanatorium mentioned in DA2? Some place Bertrand is sent to?

[Hazegurl]

Is the Bright Hand described as a replacement for the college of Enchanters though? My impression was that it is an Order voluntarily formed by the ex-rebels as part of the Inquisition.  Lelliana disbands the circles so the mages outside the Inquisition and future mages a technically free to form their own institutions? My personal headcanon was that my mage Inky leads the new Order and turns a part of Skyhold into a college/mage snactuary which other mages are free to join. The epilogues are pretty vague though...

That's my headcanon when I conscript the mages and pick Leliana as Divine.  I have Your Trainer teaching Rift Magic at Skyhold and A Mage tower. So I picture my Mage IQ leading The Bright Hand. I certianly wouldn't trust Fiona to lead.