A question... If I wanted to conscript the Mages, exile the Wardens and reunite Celene and Briala... Can I get Cassandra as Divine?
Yes, but you will need to support her and make dialogue choices to up her approval. If you dont Vivienne will take the throne.
^ What he said. Whenever the topic of the Chantry or Divine comes up, show support for reformation and Cassandra being Divine. Otherwise Vivienne will snatch it right up
The ritual that Hawke did is a far-cry from human sacrifices. One cannot assume he would commit the latter with any certainty.
One can never be certain how others will react. All we can do is make a prediction based on available knowledge.
The facts are that, generally, one's family is vastly more important than strangers and that Malcolm has already proven he will break his ideals in order to protect them.
I very much doubt he'd let them die to spare the lives of strangers or even neighbours, in fact.
Great, it makes sense for my Dalish to support reformation and I want Leliana to be free to reunite with my Warden^ What he said. Whenever the topic of the Chantry or Divine, show support for reformation and Cassandra being Divine. Otherwise Vivienne will snatch it right up
One can never be certain how others will react. All we can do is make a prediction based on available knowledge.
The facts are that, generally, one's family is vastly more important than strangers and that Malcolm has already proven he will break his ideals in order to protect them.
I very much doubt he'd let them die to spare the lives of strangers or even neighbours, in fact.
Available knowledge also suggests that a mage does not necessarily require the sacrifice of another to work. The fact that the seals required Hawke's blood to work suggests that he used his own, so the only real issue for Malcolm would be simply having the label "maleficar" hang over him, rather than a straight up murderer. That's not much to weigh against the lives of his wife and unborn child.
With that in mind, we don't know if he would murder some innocent person to save his wife's life. It's possible that Leandra would despise him if he tried, or whatever. In the end, it doesn't matter, because this is far too speculative to be an effective argument. Just because he might perform an act he would otherwise disapprove of, doesn't mean that he's willing to do everything.
Doubt if you will, but doubt isn't proof.
One can never be certain how others will react. All we can do is make a prediction based on available knowledge.
The facts are that, generally, one's family is vastly more important than strangers and that Malcolm has already proven he will break his ideals in order to protect them.
I very much doubt he'd let them die to spare the lives of strangers or even neighbours, in fact.
I very much doubt that he would literally commit murder to save them. Again, trying to link the magic he worked to human sacrifice is a rather precarious leap.
On the other hand, we already know Vivienne isn't above murder when it would suit her, but we're fine letting her be the Divine.
One can never be certain how others will react. All we can do is make a prediction based on available knowledge.
The facts are that, generally, one's family is vastly more important than strangers and that Malcolm has already proven he will break his ideals in order to protect them.
I very much doubt he'd let them die to spare the lives of strangers or even neighbours, in fact.
One can also use one's own blood. What we know of Malcolm points to him being a decent man. I can see a decent man sacrificing himself for his family, but not anyone else.I agree with others, I think you're reaching on this one.
The parents, and neighbours are the ones who alert the templars sweetheart.
See how those children endanger their life while casting the spells in front of them.
I bet some think "my templar-senses are tingling!" when it comes to templars.
One can also use one's own blood. What we know of Malcolm points to him being a decent man. I can see a decent man sacrificing himself for his family, but not anyone else.I agree with others, I think you're reaching on this one.
Indeed. There's the story of the lovers Crescens and Seraphinian where Seraphinian offered his own blood to cure Crescens of a wasting disease.
Considering how badly Fiona put the nails on the coffin for the rebels by effectively enslaving herself and her mages to Tevinter, I feel conscription is the best option. I need direct oversight over the mages after that stunt because I do not at all trust Fiona with leadership.
I'm going to replay my canon playthrough because I want to re-make some decisions and in particular I'm thinking about conscripting the Mages insted of allying with them.
My Inquisitor is a human Mage, but she always respected the Circles as an institution for education and protection of the mages. Freeing them, especially after Fiona showed how they can be manipulated, isn't the best choice anymore.
Moreover, the conscription seems to be the best choice also in the epilogue, independently on who becomes Divine. I think I will go for Leliana this time, instead of Cassandra.
What's your opinion about the conscription?
I'm planning to do exactly this! My Quiz is exactly like yours too! She believes there needs to be a better institution for mages than the current circle but some kind of circle system nonetheless. She also thinks it shouldn't be controlled by the chantry but by mages and that it should be a place for education, not a prison. This is how I'm going to change her decision without changing her character;
Being sweet, kind-hearted and a mage herself, she initially planned to ally with them (despite her personal belief) when Fiona first approaches her in Val royeaux. That all changed when she saw the grisly future their recklessness wrought. She reluctantly decides that the best way to protect them (from themselves and others) is to temporarily conscript them. She doesn't like that she's done this but she sees no other choice. This decision combined with Leliana becoming Divine results in a epilogue that best suits this kind of character I think. When she became the Inquisitor she said she wanted to be a good example for mages, I like that the resulting epilogue alludes to what she said in her speech;
When Leliana disbands the Circles, they remain with the Inquisition and form a new college called the Bright Hand. To many, this new order represents the best of mages, an example for the rest of Thedas to follow.
I headcanon that she becomes a grand enchanter figure as well as head of the Inquisition. She also makes sure the mages are never mistreated and have a haven where they are protected, can learn and are treated with kindness and respect. So a tough love decision that results in the mages willingly staying with the Inquisition and forming a new and better college. I like it, I like it a lot .
I'm going to replay my canon playthrough because I want to re-make some decisions and in particular I'm thinking about conscripting the Mages insted of allying with them.
My Inquisitor is a human Mage, but she always respected the Circles as an institution for education and protection of the mages. Freeing them, especially after Fiona showed how they can be manipulated, isn't the best choice anymore.
Moreover, the conscription seems to be the best choice also in the epilogue, independently on who becomes Divine. I think I will go for Leliana this time, instead of Cassandra.
What's your opinion about the conscription?
That isn't a good reason. Anyone can be manipulated. All this shows is that the mages are just as human as everyone else and that Bioware sucked at storytelling when making this quest. I simply don't understand how you can think that a system which denies mages their freedom and which proved that it cannot work is a good solution? The mages rebeled because they were sick and tired of being denied their freedom. The mages will always eventually rebel against the Circle system. Thus the only long term solution is abolishing the Circles and using those resources to offer free education for all Thedasians.
Considering how badly Fiona put the nails on the coffin for the rebels by effectively enslaving herself and her mages to Tevinter, I feel conscription is the best option. I need direct oversight over the mages after that stunt because I do not at all trust Fiona with leadership.
Neither do the rest of the mages who Fiona does not speak for. I mean how stupid do you have to be to agree to be enslaved by Tevinter? I'm sorry but that was horrible writing by Bioware.
All the law and order types miss the boat. The bottom line for me is what will get you the most out of your troops. Conscription for the templars is a no brainer IMO- they're a military organization whose chain of command has completely broken down. They'll respond best to a restored CoC. The mages are people who were prisoners all their lives and just wanted a chance at freedom, or were dragged into the war by others. Making them prisoners is recipe for resentment and more rebellion. Let them prove they can rule themselves while helping Thedas out of a jam, and you're more apt to get a good result, IMO.
Yeah because that worked out sooooo well for Alistair,Anora and Teagun. 
Yeah because that worked out sooooo well for Alistair,Anora and Teagun.
Fiona believed they were about to be wiped out by templars and those three apparently aren't able to protect their own people, let alone the rebel mages. So all bets were off. If the Inquisition gets to that point, I hope you don't think all those people milling around Skyhold are just going to let themselves be massacred because you told them they're conscripted.
Fiona believed they were about to be wiped out by templars and those three apparently aren't able to protect their own people, let alone the rebel mages. So all bets were off. If the Inquisition gets to that point, I hope you don't think all those people milling around Skyhold are just going to let themselves be massacred because you told them they're conscripted.
And we've already established she's a terrible leader who makes awful judgments,Well most people don't expect treason from a group they're sheltering and we'll just ignore the huge army they brought with them to kick the mages out in a timely manner,If they don't appreciate my saving them from the consequences of their idiocy well I hear the Hissing Wastes are very accommodating.to hated vagabonds with no where else to go. 
Kind of a moot point anyway since I'm pretty sure I killed them all after I conscripted the Templars. 
And we've already established she's a terrible leader who makes awful judgments,Well most people don't expect treason from a group they're sheltering and we'll just ignore the huge army they brought with them to kick the mages out in a timely manner,If they don't appreciate my saving them from the consequences of their idiocy well I hear the Hissing Wastes are very accommodating.to hated vagabonds with no where else to go.
Kind of a moot point anyway since I'm pretty sure I killed them all after I conscripted the Templars.
What huge army is that?
I'm just speaking practically, people will do what they need to in order to survive, and not everyone can count on a Mary Sue PC to save them. Anyway I was talking about getting the best out of the people you lead. If you think you can do that by puffing your chest, go on ahead.
She can even side with Corypheus in Order to survive, she is a excelent leader!What huge army is that?
I'm just speaking practically, people will do what they need to in order to survive, and not everyone can count on a Mary Sue PC to save them. Anyway I was talking about getting the best out of the people you lead. If you think you can do that by puffing your chest, go on ahead.
Her actions decreased the quality of her people's tactical position, did nothing to improve their tactical position, increased their number of enemies, and all for the low low price of ten years of military service! People will do what they have to do in order to survive, however Fiona's decision to commit tactically suicide is sort of the opposite of that.What huge army is that?
I'm just speaking practically, people will do what they need to in order to survive, and not everyone can count on a Mary Sue PC to save them. Anyway I was talking about getting the best out of the people you lead. If you think you can do that by puffing your chest, go on ahead.
She can even side with Corypheus in Order to survive, she is a excelent leader!
Her action can lead her people to destruction, her actions led them to amar they couldnt win and while they can get freedom , its only dumbluck, nothing about her leadership skill.
I'm not interested in your Fiona haterade, it's beside the point and boring.
Her actions decreased the quality of her people's tactical position, did nothing to improve their tactical position, increased their number of enemies, and all for the low low price of ten years of military service! People will do what they have to do in order to survive, however Fiona's decision to commit tactically suicide is sort of the opposite of that.
Going to Tevinter is not tactical suicide. If I were a human among the mage rebels, I'd have packed my bags for the Imperium long before this.
Wow, thats a great reasoning.I'm not interested in your Fiona haterade, it's beside the point and boring.
You are right, going to TI is not tactical suicide. But they don't go to TI. They take over a castle in a location where they have no supply or reinforcement lines. Regardless of whether Fiona was in on that or not before it happed, the moment it did happen, it was obvious that Alexius didn't care about her people and therefore could not be trusted to uphold whatever deal he made with her. Of course she then proceeds to not try and save her people and just whimpers like a kicked puppy.Going to Tevinter is not tactical suicide. If I were a human among the mage rebels, I'd have packed my bags for the Imperium long before this.
You know, I read a letter in game that is relevant to this discussion. The letter was written by Samson - I obviously chose the mages. Samson wrote that he joined with Corypheus because the Chantry wouldn't give him a second chance. Then when I went back to Cullen with the letters, Cullen told the story about how he used to share quarters with Samson in the Kirkwall Templars. Samson was kicked out for passing message. He ended up begging or turning tricks on the street because the Chantry said "****** off" and he was a Templar lyrium addict.
I felt horrible.
While I chose the mages and offered them alliance because of how I've seen people react to, and endure, real-life conscription (military draft), I really wish that I could have given the Templars and Samson a second chance too.
This game seems to be a lot about second chances. There are so many instance in which we're compelled to chose who gets a second chance and who doesn't.
You know, I read a letter in game that is relevant to this discussion. The letter was written by Samson - I obviously chose the mages. Samson wrote that he joined with Corypheus because the Chantry wouldn't give him a second chance. Then when I went back to Cullen with the letters, Cullen told the story about how he used to share quarters with Samson in the Kirkwall Templars. Samson was kicked out for passing message. He ended up begging or turning tricks on the street because the Chantry said "****** off" and he was a Templar lyrium addict.
I felt horrible.
While I chose the mages and offered them alliance because of how I've seen people react to, and endure, real-life conscription (military draft), I really wish that I could have given the Templars and Samson a second chance too.
This game seems to be a lot about second chances. There are so many instance in which we're compelled to chose who gets a second chance and who doesn't.
Actually, Corypheus most likely killed him for failure if you sided with the Templars. So, you actually give Samson a chance to do some good if you side with the mages.
Just to complement what thesuperdarkone said, there is a códex about a report to Calpernia, where is said Samson no longer leads the Red Templars.Actually, Corypheus most likely killed him for failure if you sided with the Templars. So, you actually give Samson a chance to do some good if you side with the mages.
There's a whole other thread, fifty pages worth, of nonstop Fiona spew.Wow, thats a great reasoning.
This is a free forum, I can post my opinion just like you can.
While preparing to retreat, likely across the water.You are right, going to TI is not tactical suicide. But they don't go to TI. They take over a castle in a location where they have no supply or reinforcement lines. Regardless of whether Fiona was in on that or not before it happed, the moment it did happen, it was obvious that Alexius didn't care about her people and therefore could not be trusted to uphold whatever deal he made with her. Of course she then proceeds to not try and save her people and just whimpers like a kicked puppy.
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