73 réponses à ce sujet

[Quarian Master Race]

Why would the Reapers indoctrinate the batarians? They are a rouge state and have no relations with the other states, making them unsuitable for subterfuge. Their only use would be as cannon fodder ground troops, wherein it is better to use Reaper technology to "improve" them into Cannibals.

Cerberus troops have far too large a role as cannon fodder in ME3's campaign, but for the primary purpose of indoctrination (as opposed to conversion) in causing discord behind the front lines they are far better than the batarians, because humans are a council race with influence on the political system and military coordination of the Citadel Council.

Actually, the volus would have made a great indoctrinated race (no joke). Easy to defeat militarily, and you can have them make a bunch of suicidal financial/ economic decisions and bleed the Council races dry.

[grey_wind]

You can have the Batarians being another major enemy faction to replace Cerberus without making them an army of indoctrinated mooks.

 

Have the Reapers indoctrinate the Hegemony's leadership (either through the Leviathan of Dis or after they enter Sol). The Batarian army and people will do what the Hegemony tells them to do, especially if they get all that sweet, sweet Reaper tech that puts them at a military advantage over other Council races, and their participation in the war is framed with a "Torch Earth, screw humans, avenge our lost honour" kind of slant.

 

Throughout the game, you can have increasing reports of Batarian splinter groups as more and more of them realize the Hegemony has become complicit in what is actually a galactic extinction. Some of those N7 missions can have you aiding Batarian rebels against their loyalist forces. Depending on how you handle those missions, and other things like Balak's fate or your choice to warn the Batarians in Arrival, it can all finally culminate one of two ways:

- The Batarian army overthrows the indoctrinated Hegemony leadership and joins the galactic alliance or....

 - A weak rebellion fails miserably, and the Reapers wipe out the Batarians, turning them into an army of cannon fodder Cannibals

Much like the Miracle of Palaven, this doesn't even have to be shown. It can just be relegated to a codex entry and news report.

 

Throw in a Batarian squadmate (instead of friggin EDI or Vega) who is one of the first of his/her people to disagree with the Hegemony's alliance with the Reapers, and now we have the basis for some decent drama. 

[AlanC9]

But I think they could have been used as a brute force indoctrinated faction. They could have accounted for some of the ground troops you encounter on missions. At Mars for example you'd run into Batarians instead of Cerberus. Ditto for Sur'Kesh. 

I don't think it makes any sense to keep the existing missions with a batarian faction. Cerberus is a minor military force with major intelligence advantages; a batarian faction would have less of the latter but more of the former, wouldn't it?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No. Cannibals  were cooltastic. I mean a human head and arm jammed on a Batarian torso with a Batarian head and a gun attached to it? How cool is that? And they stopped to eat other corpses, too! But Cerberus was boring. Hidden behind masks except for that one time. That could have been you, Shepard!

 

/sarcasm

[Han Shot First]

I don't think it makes any sense to keep the existing missions with a batarian faction. Cerberus is a minor military force with major intelligence advantages; a batarian faction would have less of the latter but more of the former, wouldn't it?

 

It depends.

 

If the Crucible plans on Mars are still the means to defeating the Reapers, and the genophage cure still requires Shepard going to Sur'Kesh to extract Eve...you would need to have someone attack. Of course the story could be written differently so that neither mission occurs, but I like both the Crucible (the idea..not the execution) and the genophage cure, so I'd keep them both in.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Why would the Reapers indoctrinate the batarians? They are a rouge state and have no relations with the other states, making them unsuitable for subterfuge. Their only use would be as cannon fodder ground troops, wherein it is better to use Reaper technology to "improve" them into Cannibals.

Cerberus troops have far too large a role as cannon fodder in ME3's campaign, but for the primary purpose of indoctrination (as opposed to conversion) in causing discord behind the front lines they are far better than the batarians, because humans are a council race with influence on the political system and military coordination of the Citadel Council.

Actually, the volus would have made a great indoctrinated race (no joke). Easy to defeat militarily, and you can have them make a bunch of suicidal financial/ economic decisions and bleed the Council races dry.

The Batarians have an enormous military/industrial complex and capacity to wage asymmetric warfare. Their fleet rivals that of the Humans, but the Hegemony's influence sprawls to the Terminus Systems, which means lots of pirates and slavers harvesting people for processing. The Hegemony is a delegated government (semi-autonomous nation-states fight for supremacy on Khar'Shan) so an Indoctrinated Hegemony could run the entire Batarian theater of the Reaper War without so much as lifting a finger.

 

And the Council wouldn't know what hit them until much later.

[Han Shot First]

Why would the Reapers indoctrinate the batarians? They are a rouge state and have no relations with the other states, making them unsuitable for subterfuge. Their only use would be as cannon fodder ground troops, wherein it is better to use Reaper technology to "improve" them into Cannibals.

Cerberus troops have far too large a role as cannon fodder in ME3's campaign, but for the primary purpose of indoctrination (as opposed to conversion) in causing discord behind the front lines they are far better than the batarians, because humans are a council race with influence on the political system and military coordination of the Citadel Council.

Actually, the volus would have made a great indoctrinated race (no joke). Easy to defeat militarily, and you can have them make a bunch of suicidal financial/ economic decisions and bleed the Council races dry.

 

Are the Cannibals really an improvement though? I kind of view them as husks with guns. They are dangerous sure, but less so than a more intelligent enemy. In the lore on indoctrination it was mentioned that a slower and less brute force approach produced more capable servants. With the Cannibals any sense of free will or the pre-huskified identity has seemed to have been obliterated. They don't even seem to be capable of intelligent speech anymore.

 

That said you do raise an interesting point about the Reapers just indoctrinating the leadership. The Reapers could potentially just indoctrinate some of the upper echelons of the Batarian state, and fool the rest into thinking that the Reapers were an ally obliterating the Council species, but leaving the Batarians in control of the post-war galaxy. You'd have unindoctrinated Batarians essentially fighting for the Reapers for the reasons that Saren argued they should be supported.

[ZipZap2000]

Are the Cannibals really an improvement though? I kind of view them as husks with guns. They are dangerous sure, but less so than a more intelligent enemy. In the lore on indoctrination it was mentioned that a slower and less brute force approach produced more capable servants. With the Cannibals any sense of free will or the pre-huskified identity has seemed to have been obliterated. They don't even seem to be capable of intelligent speech anymore.

 

That said you do raise an interesting point about the Reapers just indoctrinating the leadership. The Reapers could potentially just indoctrinate some of the upper echelons of the Batarian state, and fool the rest into thinking that the Reapers were an ally obliterating the Council species, but leaving the Batarians in control of the post-war galaxy. You'd have unindoctrinated Batarians essentially fighting for the Reapers for the reasons that Saren argued they should be supported.

 

 

Cannibals fit a role though they're part of a group. When you're pinned down by Marauders and there's a Ravager about to fire a burst at you, the last thing you need is a couple of cannibals throwing grenades into your position. 

[themikefest]

The Batarians are better as a cannibal. I don't believe they can yell TAKING CASUALTIES as well as Cerberus

[Arcian]

They were underdeveloped enough in ME1 and left shady enough in ME2 for the first change to work IMO.

I'm not sure an organization who plasters their symbol on everything they own can be called "shady".

[Quarian Master Race]

The Batarians have an enormous military/industrial complex and capacity to wage asymmetric warfare. Their fleet rivals that of the Humans, but the Hegemony's influence sprawls to the Terminus Systems, which means lots of pirates and slavers harvesting people for processing. The Hegemony is a delegated government (semi-autonomous nation-states fight for supremacy on Khar'Shan) so an Indoctrinated Hegemony could run the entire Batarian theater of the Reaper War without so much as lifting a finger.

 

And the Council wouldn't know what hit them until much later.

But what is the need? Reapers already outgun and outnumber everyone else. They can easily control all of the former Batarian Hegemony assets while harvesting/ converting the batarians, as they already do in game. Even high ranking batarians don't have much use for subterfuge due to their Pariah state status (Balak/ his replacement has to sneak around the Citadel, dodging the authorities to do his dirty work, because they don't even have an embassy). The batarians would mostly be useful as cannon fodder, which is exactly what the reapers do to them anyway.

You could make the argument that allowing them to maintain some of their own mental faculties is preferable to being turned into mindless zombies, but they are only useable as cannon fodder either way. Whether they are allowed to keep their ships and minds or be turned into destroyer slushie and cannibals is pretty irrelevant, IMO. 

Cerberus makes far more sense as it already has its fingers in everything the upper echelons of a council race, the Alliance and humanity, does and can thus serve in roles that standard Reaper troops (or batarians) can't. Of course, any Council race would have worked equally well but Cerberus was convenient for the writers

The only use in making the batarians indoctrinated would be to provide a 4th/5th type of mook to kill, which they could have done with any and all races (except maybe quarians and drell, due to tiny numbers and insular populations). What makes the batarians preferable to other Pariah non council races, like vorcha, geth or krogan? The batarians would just become another enslaved mook race like the geth do, with no use outside of providing more things to shoot at, which cannibals do just fine.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

But what is the need? Reapers already outgun and outnumber everyone else. They can easily control all of the former Batarian Hegemony assets while harvesting/ converting the batarians, as they already do in game. Even high ranking batarians don't have much use for subterfuge due to their Pariah state status (Balak/ his replacement has to sneak around the Citadel, dodging the authorities to do his dirty work, because they don't even have an embassy). The batarians would mostly be useful as cannon fodder, which is exactly what the reapers do to them anyway.

You could make the argument that allowing them to maintain some of their own mental faculties is preferable to being turned into mindless zombies, but they are only useable as cannon fodder either way. Whether they are allowed to keep their ships and minds or be turned into destroyer slushie and cannibals is pretty irrelevant, IMO. 

Cerberus makes far more sense as it already has its fingers in everything the upper echelons of a council race, the Alliance and humanity, does and can thus serve in roles that standard Reaper troops (or batarians) can't. Of course, any Council race would have worked equally well but Cerberus was convenient for the writers

The only use in making the batarians indoctrinated would be to provide a 4th/5th type of mook to kill, which they could have done with any and all races (except maybe quarians and drell, due to tiny numbers and insular populations). What makes the batarians preferable to other Pariah non council races, like vorcha, geth or krogan? The batarians would just become another enslaved mook race like the geth do, with no use outside of providing more things to shoot at, which cannibals do just fine.

 

The Reapers' strategy in-game failed hard. Conventionally they'd probably win, but with the element of surprise, it'd be a more Arrival-type scenario where Shepard or no, they just blaze through and destroy everything.

 

They don't control all the former Hegemony assets. The Hegemony's reach extends far beyond traditional Batarian space, and the Batarians are the most powerful race in the Terminus. Their grasp is geographically enormous, but they don't capitalize on it for whatever reason.

[Massa FX]

For what it's worth... the Hegemony was doomed. Disliked by all. Perhaps more than any other race.. even the Vorcha. <maybe>. I can't see them "infiltrating" any organization with sleeper agents.

 

Humans (IMHO) are considered new players on the block, curious, uppity, demanding and impetuous. They are disliked by other races, but respected and accepted.

 

Humans will rule the galaxy in a future MEU with Super Shepard uniting everyone.  

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think there should have been multiple Indoctrinated forces, who had at their base some sort of sympathetic origin. One, I think this would have helped build up the Reapers as a more intelligent and sinister antagonist, rather than a bunch of faceless robots who just shoot lasers at the ground. Additionally, I think it would help build up tension throughout the game that even close friends could be manipulated, versus whatever we get with Cerberus.

 

For example, perhaps the Reapers don't invade the Batarians but rather feeds off the animosity between them and the rest of the galaxy, offering them the technology (which ultimately Indoctrinates them) to invade and weaken the rest of the galaxy. Perhaps, initially, we see the Batarians proud of fight the other races but slowly turn to horror and regret as they see what their deal with the Reapers had turned them into.

 

Maybe on Sur'Kesh, instead of Cerberus, we have a group of Salarians (who we briefly find out were working on Reaper artifacts) sabotage the exchange with Eve on the basis of some well explained rational on why curing the genophage would be a bad idea. Maybe, at the end we don't actually know if they were Indoctrinated.

 

The Citadel Coup could be an attack from Indoctrinated refugees who made their way onto the station.

[Han Shot First]

One thing might have been interesting would have been for an indoctrinated faction that was worshiping the Reapers as gods. Religious awe of the Reapers was one of the symptoms of indoctrination mentioned in the lore. An interrogation of a captured indoctrinated human or alien could have been interesting, if he/she was spouting pious devotion to his/her mass-murdering gods. It would also help explain some of the horrors inflicted on the population by these thralls. Prisoners being indoctrinated are being shown the light, others processed for ascension are being uplifted to godhood, others processed into husks or other Reaper creatures are unbelievers and infidels receiving their righteous punishment, ect.

 

Reaper cultists might have made for an interesting indoctrinated faction. You could have Batarians initially, and multiple races later. Maybe one of the gameplay classes could have been a suicide bomber. While some were firing at you with weapons, other indoctrinated cultists with explosives strapped to them would charge you.

[ImaginaryMatter]

One thing might have been interesting would have been for an indoctrinated faction that was worshiping the Reapers as gods. Religious awe of the Reapers was one of the symptoms of indoctrination mentioned in the lore. An interrogation of a captured indoctrinated human or alien could have been interesting, if he/she was spouting pious devotion to his/her mass-murdering gods. It was also help explain some of the horrors inflicted on the population by these thralls. Prisoners being indoctrinated are being shown the light, others processed for ascension are being uplifted to godhood, others processed into husks or other Reaper creatures are unbelievers and infidels being receiving their righteous punishment, ect.

cultists (of multiple races I suppose) might have made for an interesting indoctrinated faction.

 

I would have loved the cultists. People willingly throwing themselves on the Dragon Teeth (speaking of which, where did those go in ME3?), would have been prety enjoyably disturbing.

[SwobyJ]

THAT'S what I wanted!

[Massa FX]

You guys...

 

You've found another dropped game element. The missing spires (teeth). Too many plot holes to keep tack of...

 

However, I didn't even think about them until this thread. 

[NeroonWilliams]

You guys...

 

You've found another dropped game element. The missing spires (teeth). Too many plot holes to keep tack of...

 

However, I didn't even think about them until this thread. 

The Dragon's Teeth were explained to have been a tool that the Geth used to create Husks during the mission on Horizon in ME2.  The Collectors weren't using them.

[Display Name Owner]

Maybe it could've been done so that the Batarian leadership were indoctrinated by... something. It would probably require a fair few changes to ME2 (not that that would be the worst thing in the world) to justify it. But anyway, it could've been so the Batarian leaders were indoctrinated into deciding to use Reaper tech and the Reaper war as an opportunity to get one over on Humanity while everyone's too messed up to do anything about it.

 

But, I don't know. For one thing I think they'd have to include some Batarians totally opposed to all that to balance it out, as I don't really like the idea of a 100% villainous species. Plus, as sick as I am of Cerberus and think ME3 had 3x too much of them, I don't know if ME3 should lose the 'Control vs. Destroy' angle, and I don't know if it'd work with anyone but TIM. But again, if ME2 were done differently who knows?

[Arcian]

The Dragon's Teeth were explained to have been a tool that the Geth used to create Husks during the mission on Horizon in ME2.  The Collectors weren't using them.

Dragon's Teeth were found on the Derelict Reaper, which was never visited by any geth except Legion. The ship was 37 million years old. Ergo, Dragon's Teeth in ME1 were Reaper tools given to the geth by Sovereign. The Collectors have their own technology to create husks, or they use Dragon's Teeth and they're simply not shown on screen in ME2.

[Mister J]

On second thought, it just had to be Cerberus. While I still think of mysterious Cerberus as better than evil Cerberus, the Illusive Man's desire for power and control just makes him the most likely person to disregard the warnings that Legion was talking about: by taking the enemies technology you develop along the paths they desire. Thus he easily became a tool for the Reapers, doing the same thing they did: turning people into husks and whatnot.

 

What still doesn't make any sense though is all the 'you opened my eyes', 'we need some friendly faces', 'he used you': all the retroactively turning Illusive Man in doctor Evil before ME3. He only became that after taking the Collector base or the remains of it. The absolute worst part is James Vega telling that his mission of saving a colony from the Collectors was betrayed by a Cerberus mole. That is bloody Tomb Raider Underworld levels of plotholes and no sense making!

[Han Shot First]

I don't think it makes any sense to keep the existing missions with a batarian faction. Cerberus is a minor military force with major intelligence advantages; a batarian faction would have less of the latter but more of the former, wouldn't it?

 

I just realized I misunderstood your post in my earlier reply. 

 

We don't really know enough about Batarian intelligence services to say that they are less adept at spycraft than Cerberus. On the other hand Cerberus at times seemed to veer into Mary Suedom in that department, so perhaps it should just be assumed.

 

But even so I think the Batarian intelligence services being less adept than Cerberus wouldn't rule out the possibility of the Batarians attacking Mars or the STG base on Sur'Kesh. As an indoctrinated faction they'd ultimately be getting their marching orders from the Reapers, who likely would be capable of gaining intelligence on the Mars archives or the genophage cure (thanks to indoctrinated sleeper agents) even if the Batarians weren't.