46 réponses à ce sujet

[JoeypTheGreat]

I am going to play a warrior tank.... What should I put my points into to make him good?

[DAO Lemon]

Most of the S&S Branch Tree (Shield & Sword)
Taunt/Threaten also.

Get 38/42 Strength to equip most of the good Gear

Modifié par DAO Lemon, 27 janvier 2010 - 03:38 .

[Critical_Error]

If you have Taunt and decent armor you can work the game. People like Massive, but Im fine with heavy (Evon the gReat's is really good imo).

[dkjestrup]

Okay, here we go, copied from my guide.

1) Weapon and Shield Tank

Weapon and Shield, generally known as SnS or Sword and Shield, is the best class for a tank. Basically, the goal of this character is to a) get aggro and stay alive for as long as possible.

Talents

Talents wise, like most warriors, you'll end up with pretty much every skill in the warrior/SnS trees. At low levels though, you need to chose. You have two real options at low levels. You can go straight for Taunt and Threaten, so your character keeps the aggro. However, you'll die fast. OR you can go straight for Shield Wall, to have higher armor and stay alive. Eventually, you'll want both.

You have two sustainables to chose between. Shield Wall and Shield Defense. Shield Wall gives you a big armor boost, so enemies do less damage. Shield Defense increases Defense, so you get hit less. It is really up to you. However, Shield Wall gives you immunity to knock down, with Shield Expertise. In my opinion, for a dex tank, Shield Wall is better at low levels, because your defense won't yet be high enough to dodge a lot of attacks. At higher levels, Shield Defense is better. But, against anything that does knockdowns, like Ogres, Dragons, etc, you want Shield Wall. Also, you should always have Threaten activated when you have it. Keep Shield Bash and Pummel off cooldown, to use as interupts for casters or grab/overwhelmers.

Specialisations

You want Templar/Champion, no doubt about it. Templar lets you wear Knight Commander Armor, for 40% spell resist, making Spell immunity possible with runes/spellward/ket to the city. The tier 2 Templar ability is also great for Curse of Mortality/Misdirection Hex. If your Mage has Glyph of Neutralization, though, it isn't necessary.

You want Champion for Rally+Motivate, which gives you a big defense and attack boost. It affects your whole party, too, which is awesome. Warcry+Superiority is also great, giving you an AoE knockdown, which can be used as an interupt.

Gear

Gearwise, it's simple. You want the biggest, strongest armor you can find. The best Armors are Juggernaught, for all-around usefulness, Evon the Greats is also very good (probably with Diligence gloves + boots) Knight Commanders, for casters, and Wade's Superior Dragonbone, for dragons. The Helm Corruption is brilliant for the final fight, with 75% spirit resistance.

Also, to meet 42 strength, you need the Ornate Leather Belt, Key to the City, Harvest Festival Ring, Helm of Honleath.

Weapons wise, use a dagger. That way you get increased damage from dexterity, which you'll be pumping anyways. For your shield, the best shield in the game is Howe's Shield, which you get during the Landsmeet part of the main quest. However this is very late in the game. Other good shields, which you can get earlier are Eamon's Shield, the Champions Shield*, and the Aeducan Shield*.

The best rings are the Key to the City, and Lifegiver. Ring of the Ages is also good, when you need fire resist. Spellward is imo the best Amulet, and the best belt is Andruils Blessing.

*Credit to Soteria, I had no idea of these. The Aeducan Shield requires you to be a Dwarven Noble. You can Pickpocket Vartag for the Champions Shield, which I'd say is the best pre-landsmeet shield in the game.

Stats

Stats wise, you want the minimum possible strength to wear the best armor, and everything else goes into dex. Lifegiver ring gives you plenty of constituition to survive grabs etc. I say 35 strength, because the gear I mentioned is easy to get (Key to the city, Helm of Honleath and Harvest Festival Ring) or cheap (Ornate leather belt). You could shave another 4 points off it with Vanguard and Andruils Blessing instead of the Ornate leather belt, but to get the Vanguard, you have to side with Caradin, making it not usable for everyone, and taking a long time to get, considering most people go to Orzammar last, that's a long way into the game. Andruils Blessing is really expensive, so I go with Ornate leather belt, which can be brought from Old Tegrin for less than a sovereign.

35 strength (including fade bonus)
Max dex
Base will
Base con
Base mag
Base cun

Modifié par dkjestrup, 27 janvier 2010 - 05:13 .

[tslmtslm]

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Fade_Wall

Type: Heavy Shield

Value: 6 Gold 0 Silver 0 Bronze

Material: Silverite (Tier 6)

Requires: 38 Strength

Defense: 6.0

Missile deflection: 9.0

Fatigue: 5.63%

Effects: +3 Defense

+20 Healing Spells

+1 Combat Stamina Regeneration

+25 Stamina

Description: This shield is charged with arcane energy. The user is infused as though otherworldly, but suffers a vague sense of disconnection that is very hard to shake.

[dkjestrup]

Fade Wall isn't that great. In my opinion. I'd rather have Howe's Shield, which has 6 defense and +12 more, so it has a total of 18 defense. It has -2 willpower though.



Earlier, the Champions Shield is great, with +9 defense for a total of +12 defense. Steal from Vartag.

[MOTpoetryION]

no need to build a tank just make one or both your rogues into a rogue / ranger and summon 1 or 2 tanks

[Zecele]

You want Champion for Rally+Motivate, which gives you a big defense and attack boost. It affects your whole party, too, which is awesome. Warcry+Superiority is also great, giving you an AoE knockdown, which can be used as an interupt.

I'd also add that the attack rating debuff from Warcry is nothing to sneeze at either. On my third playthrough I respecced Ohgren into a tank and took Champion as his first specialization and he fires off taunt + warcry on every pull. It makes a decent difference.

[Huma_Ames]

What are the best spell combinations to use to generate aggro early in the game? I seem to not be able to hold aggro from my dps party members.

[Ferelden Templar]

MOTpoetryION wrote...

no need to build a tank just make one or both your rogues into a rogue / ranger and summon 1 or 2 tanks

PC yes. X360 - you can only have one extra pet per party (Animate Dead and Ranger pets cancel each other out) - The blood puppet doesn't count however.

You can't command the pet in the 360 either.

I'm rebuilding a tank right now. I'm still trying to figure out the means to create a high enough  threat to avoid pulls by mages/archers.

What sustains do you guys run? Shield Defense + Shield Wall?

[LarryFine]

Ferelden Templar wrote...

MOTpoetryION wrote...

no need to build a tank just make one or both your rogues into a rogue / ranger and summon 1 or 2 tanks

PC yes. X360 - you can only have one extra pet per party (Animate Dead and Ranger pets cancel each other out) - The blood puppet doesn't count however.

You can't command the pet in the 360 either.

I'm rebuilding a tank right now. I'm still trying to figure out the means to create a high enough  threat to avoid pulls by mages/archers.

What sustains do you guys run? Shield Defense + Shield Wall?

When playing a SnS tank I could not keep aggro on multiple enemies.  I ran with threaten and shield wall and eventually rally.  I would use the threaten talent and 4 seconds later every mob I had just got to come after me would turn and start attacking the rest of my party.  Bioware made the mistake of failing to give the SnS any aoe talents

Start over scrap the SnS make a dual long sword warrior tank.  The simple problem for the SnS is that being a tank is supposed to be his job but he sucks at it.  The SnS line gives him great defense but it lacks any attacks to actually keep a large group of enemies attacking him/her.  As a dww I use taunt dual weapon sweep and whirlwind and usually I can kill the enemies directly in front of me and do enough damage to the rest who have surrounded me that they're not going anywhere.  From there my team and I simply systematically destroy whoever is left.   Over the next 3 levels I will finally get riposte, cripple, and punisher so I can finally start spamming weapon talents. 

Stat line for my level 20 SnS champion/templar with shield wall active and legion armor 42 str 50 dex 40 armor 110 defense with shield defense active 35 armor 115 defense 104 attack 81.8 damage 806 kills 86% hit rate 81 greatest damage dealt 161,105 total damage 33% of the parties damage.  Weapon is topsiders blade

Stat line for my level 15 dww serk/templar with dragonbone plate 50 str 36 dex 32 armor 91 def 124 attack *heroic offense is up* 44.9/45.6 damage 662 kills 95% hit rate 145,252 total damage 84 Greatest damage dealt 61% party damage.  Weapons are Aodh and the Vershaille axe

The bonus for using a shield does not even come close to outweighing the additional damage I get from dual wielding.  Until level 15 I relied purely on dual weapon sweep and flurry for my non standard attacks which goes against the dual axe credo of relying on talents to maximize the damage of the bigger weapons.  I have 100 physical resistance so knockdowns are not an issue.  Wynne is setup to heal anytime anyones health drops below 75% and morrigan is set to heal whenever anyones health drops below 50%.  I had far more difficulty keeping myself and my team alive when I played the SnS over my dww. 

As long as I'm a warrior there will never be a sns warrior in my team again.  If the idea of going back didn't repulse me so much as I'd already started my dww completely over because I didn't like his original setup I'd ditch templar and choose champion instead.  Next level Wynne will get haste and I'll toss on precise striking and watch the damage/death count skyrocket.

Modifié par LarryFine, 30 janvier 2010 - 04:50 .

[Theramond]

JoeypTheGreat wrote...

I am going to play a warrior tank.... What should I put my points into to make him good?

Go all dex/defense for your build. Focus on getting a defense score of 150+ asap, using attributes (dex), equipment (with +defense), and spells (heroic defense).

LarryFine wrote...

Stat line for my level 20 SnS champion/templar with shield wall active and legion armor 42 str 50 dex 40 armor 110 defense with shield defense active 35 armor 115 defense 104 attack 81.8 damage 806 kills 86% hit rate 81 greatest damage dealt 161,105 total damage 33% of the parties damage.  Weapon is topsiders blade

Your 110-115 defense score is a bit low. I suggest getting it up to 150 anyway you can, use shield defense, Howe's sheild, heroic defense. Maybe a respec would help too.

Modifié par Theramond, 31 janvier 2010 - 04:44 .

[LarryFine]

[quote]LarryFine wrote...

Stat line for my level 20 SnS champion/templar with shield wall active and legion armor 42 str 50 dex 40 armor 110 defense with shield defense active 35 armor 115 defense 104 attack 81.8 damage 806 kills 86% hit rate 81 greatest damage dealt 161,105 total damage 33% of the parties damage.  Weapon is topsiders blade

[/quote]

Your 110-115 defense score is a bit low. I suggest getting it up to 150 anyway you can, use shield defense, Howe's sheild, heroic defense. Maybe a respec would help too.

The Science of Tanking

[/quote]

Those were my characters stat at Fort Drakon as I went through the door to fight the arch demon. 

The Stats of my dww are with me having finished redcliffe, the urn, and the broken tower,  I'm just about to head into the deep roads on paragon her of kind/anvil of the void.  The only companion quest I've finished so far is Leliana.  I never did Wynne's or Stens personal sidequest.

I've been pumping nothing but str on my dww although I've heard doing 2 str 1 dex is a good plan too.

I don't think I'm going to use the templar armor so I wish I hadn't chosen templar for my second spec.  When it said a huge amount of mental resistance I was figuring more than 20.  I don't care about mages Leliana is set to use AoS on any mage.  The reaver or champion would have probably been a better idea.  I may go back and see exactly how much I would have to replay to change my spec.

[mosspit]

@Theramond: Thanks for the indepth information. Clearly substantial time and effort is invested.

Question: Do you have the %-to-be-hit formula? Why do you think a parabolic relationships wrt dex/def exist?

[Theramond]

mosspit wrote...

@Theramond: Thanks for the indepth information. Clearly substantial time and effort is invested.
Question: Do you have the %-to-be-hit formula? Why do you think a parabolic relationships wrt dex/def exist?

I don't have the formula. I was trying to find the formula to confirm this study. I believe that as defense increases there is a cumulative effect which can be visually represented as a parabolic curve on a graph. The results of the two experiments clearly indicated this. Also, many players suggested that something like this was occuring, that dexterity works by increasing returns or something to that effect. I don't remember the exact words. Click here to see the original thread.

Modifié par Theramond, 31 janvier 2010 - 05:06 .

[dkjestrup]

It's obvious why there's a parabolic trend with increased defense. If go from being hit 50% of the time to 49% of the time, you will last 2% longer on average (1/50 = 0.02). If you go from being hit 20% of the time to being hit 19% of the time, you will last 5% longer on average (1/20 = 0.05).



There, that's why higher defense is important.



Larryfine, you must be doing something wrong, if you're having problems with a SnS tank. You have Taunt, and if you really need to, Threaten, to keep aggro. I honestly have no idea how you can't keep aggro with that. With 32 strength and the rest into dex, you will have absurdly high defense at the end of the game, with Howes Shield, Shield Defense (with expertise/mastery) and extremely high dex. If you're still having problems keeping the aggro, spec Reaver and get Frightening Appearance. Armor wise, the best are probably Blood Dragon or Evon the Greats + diligence Gloves + Boots, but to be honest, the difference is minimal, and the most important thing is looking good



Dual Wield warriors can't touch SnS tanks. You have Shield Defense, and a shield (Howes Shield has +18 defense, Champions Shield has +12) that give you absurd defense. You also have knock-down immunity with Shield Wall, which is great against Ogres, Dragons etc.

[mosspit]

@Theramond and dkjestrup: I maybe shd have state that I have looked thru your previous comments. That will save time from retyping the information lol.

The reason I am puzzled about the parabolic relationship is that these relationship are very unstable. There will just go higher and higher without a ceiling/cap so to speak.

However, there is a probability cap. Atks will always miss a tank if hes "100% missable" (I really hope I know what I am talking about and if you guys can understand me.) If the state is reached, additional dex invested will not change much as the tank will already be "100% missable"

Finding the formula for hit rate will be useful. I suspect there is a randomizer somewhere in there.

[Lord Phoebus]

IIRC attack formula is (check the Wiki or the Missing Manual):
(attacker's attack-opponent's defense+URV(0,100)>50)?hit:miss

So if your defense is more than 50 points higher than your opponent's defense he can't hit you.

It seems in this game that most enemies don't have an attack that's much better than 80 or 90, a few go up to 100. Roughly speaking this means the enemies hit rate against you is proportional to 140-(your defense). It's a linear scaling but you appear to get better returns at higher levels when you start looking at hit rates relative to previous values e.g. (1-(140-53)/(140-50))=3% decrease vs. (1-(140-137)/(140-134))=50% decrease.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 31 janvier 2010 - 12:07 .

[Theramond]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

IIRC attack formula is (check the Wiki or the Missing Manual):
(attacker's attack-opponent's defense+URV(0,100)>50)?hit:miss

So if your defense is more than 50 points higher than your opponent's defense he can't hit you.

It seems in this game that most enemies don't have an attack that's much better than 80 or 90, a few go up to 100. Roughly speaking this means the enemies hit rate against you is proportional to 140-(your defense). It's a linear scaling but you appear to get better returns at higher levels when you start looking at hit rates relative to previous values e.g. (1-(140-53)/(140-50))=3% decrease vs. (1-(140-137)/(140-134))=50% decrease.

Can you post a link to this formula? I tried looking for it, but I'm not familiar with the above sites you mentioned.

[Timortis]

For average white mobs, my experience with many solo characters is that 150 defense is the mark where you almost never get hit. For boss level mobs, it varies. For example, with a dex Rogue at 159 defense, the Genlock Forgemaster in the Deep Trenches could hit me, I switched some gear around and at 167 defense he had a harder time. On the other hand, Branka couldn't hit me at all etc. Some yellow random encounter mobs seem to have better attack than some bosses. Also, those who have Perfect Striking and use it can hit you for a while even with high defense.

[Theramond]

Modifié par Theramond, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:41 .

[soteria]

I don't know why people are saying 115 is too low. It's high enough for what I think is the hardest fight in the game. Sure, you'll get hit sometimes, but I found that unless I was just killing stuff really slow Alistair was still plenty tough @115.

[dkjestrup]

m14567 wrote...

This will come across as heresy but tank builds, or at least sword and shield ones, are a waste of time in this game. Unless you love playing s&s warriors, a s&s warrior is simply less effective than dw from my experience. The places where a s&s warrior has the advantage over a dw are so few in the game and additional party members can almost always mitigate those places anyway.

Given that people say that 2h are better than dw then it simply isn't worth it to play s&s unless you want to be less effective or have some compelling reason to play s&s.

Sword and shield warriors are never less effective than dual wield warriors at tanking. They have flanking immunity, +18 extra defense from Howes Shield, and either Shield Defense, for higher defense, or Shield wall, for higher armor, defense and knockdown immunity.

I really don't understand this. Sure, Dual Wield warriors are great, but they're not the be-all-end-all characters.