49 réponses à ce sujet

[Spellbound7]

Magic in Dragon Age is supposed to fall into four categories: two schools or matter and two schools of energy. In Dragon Age: Origins we learn that those are Primal and Creation, and Spirit and Entropy. Dragon Age II added two other schools to the mix, but Inquisition did away completely with it and instead gave us Fire, Ice, Lightning and Spirit. That's, dare I say, uninspired. Why throw away cool established lore for a generic one?

 

Despite its creative misgivings, magical combat is functional. It works even though it's boring to have to cast the same thing over and over and over again. What doesn't really work, though, is the health potion mechanic – not because it's bugged, but because it feels pointless. What's the use behind it if I can just fast travel to camp and have it replenished fully?

 

tl;dr I don't like the magic in DA: I, so check down below for lore-friendly skill tree suggestions. Also health pots need to change.

 

The way I suggest changing combat is thusly:

• Triple base health.

• Guard no longer adds health but increases your armour rating.

• Barriers are nerfed but can be healed back up.

• Health potions have unlimited use but are now on cooldown for the entire party (30 seconds). Start at 2 charges. Perk upgrade adds 1 more charge.

• Make health potions regenerate health gradually on Nightmare difficulty.

 

I'd like to offer a more lore-friendly (to DA: O and DAII) approach to magic by returning to the four schools that were available in Dragon Age: Origins. I've tried to make it so a Mage can act as a tank (with spells that increase your threat level, for instance) or other roles. For example, if you mod the game so a Mage can use a bow, that can be viable if the right skills are picked to make an Arcane Archer type character.

 

Here are my musings.

 

(I know that without any modding tools, this will remain in the realm of fantasy, but I like to speculate and brainstorm)

 

Please feel free to contribute your ideas, suggest different skills for different trees (eg, an alternative to the upgrade for the spell Freezing Field), or just offer your two cents about a different approach altogether. I have also not touched the Specialisations, so if you wish me to, let me know (or offer your suggestions). Furthermore, this tackles the Mage only, so if you have thoughts on how that can be synergised with the other classes, I'd love to hear it.

 

Image by akizhao on DeviantArt [link]

 

 

All fire spells that apply BURNING have a chance to apply PANIC
Cold spells generate HEAT MANA, which stacks up to X times. Each charge increases magic damage by a small amount. Charges decay over time, as well as every time a spell is cast. Decay timer is reset when new charges are applied. Spells with No Cost attribute are unaffected.
All lightning spells have a chance to apply PARALYSIS.
Most Entropy spells apply ENTROPIC CHARGE.

 

 

 

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Thoughts?

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Nice, and it does fit the lore better, but I don't like unlimited potions or having to heal barrier. Leave potions and barrier alone. There is a lot of synergy and, the reversed Entropy is fascinating. It would make a mage a class you had to think to play more than it is now.

 

I and many others would enjoy it but, that isn't what EA wants, they want an easy to learn game that a new player who has never played a DA game before can launch and, be playing and, feel like they are doing well/winning in a mater of minutes. This would mean it would take a couple of hours and, several levels of building a mage before a player saw the returns, and it would mean having to plan the build.

 

I enjoy doing that, but too many want a point and click game now, one where they can choose one tree, get it all and, win easily. As I said, it would be a great option for hard and nightmare and, give seasoned players more reason to replay the game, but there would need to be a simple option for new and casual players too.

[wepeel_]

 

Magic in Dragon Age is supposed to fall into four categories: two schools or matter and two schools of energy. In Dragon Age: Origins we learn that those are Primal and Creation, and Spirit and Entropy. Dragon Age II added two other schools to the mix, but Inquisition did away completely with it and instead gave us Fire, Ice, Lightning and Spirit. That's, dare I say, uninspired. Why throw away cool established lore for a generic one?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this, never really understood the 'let's-rework-everything' idea that often accompanies a sequel. Beyond that, great effort with your post, though until the modding community is capable of such overhauls (which will not be for a long time, if ever), describing desired changes and ability trees in detail seems futile - it's not like BW will make any significant alterations at this point, much less exchange the entire magic/combat system.

[Spellbound7]

Nice, and it does fit the lore better, but I don't like unlimited potions or having to heal barrier. Leave potions and barrier alone. There is a lot of synergy and, the reversed Entropy is fascinating. It would make a mage a class you had to think to play more than it is now.

 

I and many others would enjoy it but, that isn't what EA wants, they want an easy to learn game that a new player who has never played a DA game before can launch and, be playing and, feel like they are doing well/winning in a mater of minutes. This would mean it would take a couple of hours and, several levels of building a mage before a player saw the returns, and it would mean having to plan the build.

 

I enjoy doing that, but too many want a point and click game now, one where they can choose one tree, get it all and, win easily. As I said, it would be a great option for hard and nightmare and, give seasoned players more reason to replay the game, but there would need to be a simple option for new and casual players too.

 

The thing is that Dragon Age was simplified to death. I understand that some people can't be bothered with the more complex stuff, but at the same time games like DotA 2 and LoL have a massive user base, and you can't get more complex than this genre. DA:I needs some complexity back.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this, never really understood the 'let's-rework-everything' idea that often accompanies a sequel. Beyond that, great effort with your post, though until the modding community is capable of such overhauls (which will not be for a long time, if ever), describing desired changes and ability trees in detail seems futile - it's not like BW will make any significant alterations at this point, much less exchange the entire magic/combat system.

 

Yeah, I forgot to mention I did this just for fun. I know that modding tools will be required for that to happen, but it does no harm to speculate, right?

I'll update my post.

[Rawgrim]

Here is an idea for a good change: Let magic be something mages use. Right now the warrior and the rogues uses plenty magic as well. Makes every class the same, really.

[Archerwarden]

Nice, and it does fit the lore better, but I don't like unlimited potions or having to heal barrier. Leave potions and barrier alone. There is a lot of synergy and, the reversed Entropy is fascinating. It would make a mage a class you had to think to play more than it is now.
 
I and many others would enjoy it but, that isn't what EA wants, they want an easy to learn game that a new player who has never played a DA game before can launch and, be playing and, feel like they are doing well/winning in a mater of minutes. This would mean it would take a couple of hours and, several levels of building a mage before a player saw the returns, and it would mean having to plan the build.
 
I enjoy doing that, but too many want a point and click game now, one where they can choose one tree, get it all and, win easily. As I said, it would be a great option for hard and nightmare and, give seasoned players more reason to replay the game, but there would need to be a simple option for new and casual players too.

And that is the problem.

(Edited to add the bold)

[Sartoz]

One

Senior EA game execs believe:

http://www.gameskinn...es-are-too-hard

 

Two

Senior EA execs want to reach as many players as possible. The casual players appear to be an untapped market. The casual players are interested in simplicity.

 

Three

EA execs believe the highest revenues come with console games. Consoles games are action oriented ones to capture interest. Maintaining interest means avoiding cerebral activity.

 

Four

Your request violates the above principles

 

[Spellbound7]

One

Senior EA game execs believe:

http://www.gameskinn...es-are-too-hard

 

Two

Senior EA execs want to reach as many players as possible. The casual players appear to be an untapped market. The casual players are interested in simplicity.

 

Three

EA execs believe the highest revenues come with console games. Consoles games are action oriented ones to capture interest. Maintaining interest means avoiding cerebral activity.

 

Four

Your request violates the above principles

 

People don't hate EA for nothing.

 

 

 

(I know that without any modding tools, this will remain in the realm of fantasy, but I like to speculate and brainstorm)

[Artwaltz]

Now this is the magic system that I've been looking forward to when I bought DA:I. Sadly, the way it is now, it would be too hard for the game devs to change it or make an improvement as big as this.

 

Just a suggestion though, why not make Barrier available at the start of game. Like, you don't need to spent 1 tactics point to reach it.

[TaHol]

OP is right for starters. This games combat fails anyway in so many ways, magic is only one sufferer (and healing pots...how convenient is that you find supply caches even in fade. They simply had no idea of what they were trying to accomplish.)

 

I  can't agree with the statement that it is GAMERS who want and need games to be made simple. Because I have witnessed the opposite, daily basis in MMO's. Maybe some of them are simple. I come from games were people spent hours and hours in perfecting their builds and learning combos, trying to find the optimal build. I know people who trained their combos for days. The Secret World has a skill-system that needs you to be a NASA-engineer to get everything out of it. I know people who calculate their builds with excel. And these games are popular enough to make profit. In TERA even my healer had a 25 skills to use. And I had to learn to use them all, while reacting to situation that was different in every run. Shitfest waited if I did not. And yes, even TERA has been dumbed down now, badly. People left the game in masses after that. Developer still keeps dumping down. People are still leaving TERA. This is a sad state of affairs. Game gets "simpler", people who actually would play the game for long time will leave it.

 

People don't want games to be simple. It is EA and likes who have this false belief that people want games to be simple. And at the same time to add "challenge" they add mechanics that only add frustration in players, or break the game. It is like they have no idea what people really want.

[200Down]

One

Senior EA game execs believe:

http://www.gameskinn...es-are-too-hard

 

Two

Senior EA execs want to reach as many players as possible. The casual players appear to be an untapped market. The casual players are interested in simplicity.

 

Three

EA execs believe the highest revenues come with console games. Consoles games are action oriented ones to capture interest. Maintaining interest means avoiding cerebral activity.

 

Four

Your request violates the above principles

You just HAD to post that link to ruin any hint of confidence I had in EA left didn't you........

[Spellbound7]

Now this is the magic system that I've been looking forward to when I bought DA:I. Sadly, the way it is now, it would be too hard for the game devs to change it or make an improvement as big as this.

 

Just a suggestion though, why not make Barrier available at the start of game. Like, you don't need to spent 1 tactics point to reach it.

 

I'm not sure myself, actually, though in all honesty I'm not entirely satisfied with how I arranged the Spirit tree, so I probably move things around and see if I can get Barrier on the first row. Thanks for pointing that out

 

OP is right for starters. This games combat fails anyway in so many ways, magic is only one sufferer (and healing pots...how convenient is that you find supply caches even in fade. They simply had no idea of what they were trying to accomplish.)

 

I  can't agree with the statement that it is GAMERS who want and need games to be made simple. Because I have witnessed the opposite, daily basis in MMO's. Maybe some of them are simple. I come from games were people spent hours and hours in perfecting their builds and learning combos, trying to find the optimal build. I know people who trained their combos for days. The Secret World has a skill-system that needs you to be a NASA-engineer to get everything out of it. I know people who calculate their builds with excel. And these games are popular enough to make profit. In TERA even my healer had a 25 skills to use. And I had to learn to use them all, while reacting to situation that was different in every run. Shitfest waited if I did not. And yes, even TERA has been dumbed down now, badly. People left the game in masses after that. Developer still keeps dumping down. People are still leaving TERA. This is a sad state of affairs. Game gets "simpler", people who actually would play the game for long time will leave it.

 

People don't want games to be simple. It is EA and likes who have this false belief that people want games to be simple. And at the same time to add "challenge" they add mechanics that only add frustration in players, or break the game. It is like they have no idea what people really want.

 

Yeah, it is kinda sad the way EA is going about things. I love the Dragon Age franchise, and to see it so dumbed down makes me wonder what the next installment will be like. People love complexity. I cited DotA and LoL as my examples, but just look at all the MMOs out there. Heck, EVE is a thing that people love. I understand that complexity can scare newcommers, but DA:I is the THIRD INSTALLMENT in a franchise. It already has a dedicated fanbase. Dumbing it down to bring in new people just alienates that existing support structure.

[DanteYoda]

Great feedback.

[Spellbound7]

Spirit tree has been updated. There are a lot of changes to it, so please let me know what you think. I'm particularly concerned about the upgrade to Mend (Aleviate) as I'm not sure it would be really useful since you can just Dispel or Spell Purge to remove debuffs. Also all healing spells are now channelled. Having insta-heal kinda feels too easy

[McPartyson]

I must say this is something like a presentation you give to your work. Did you do this at work while not doing any actual work and getting paid to do it?

[Auztin]

I could go along with that except unlimited health potions besides that great presentation.Kudos.

[Spellbound7]

 

I must say this is something like a presentation you give to your work. Did you do this at work while not doing any actual work and getting paid to do it?

 

No.

 

I could go along with that except unlimited health potions besides that great presentation.Kudos.

 

 

The reason for the unlimited potions is because healing spell are present in the Spirit tree. Since mana replenishes itself, you basically have unlimited heals out of combat. This makes no real difference for potions. Enabling you to heal all the time means you can actually forgo a healer in the party, but a sufficiently long cooldown means you cannot spam it in combat and have to be wise as to it's use. You could make healing potions cost Elfroot or smthng to create, but I guess that's up to balancing should that idea ever manage to get this far.

 

I'm open to suggestions though. This system is far from being perfect

[Spellbound7]

I had nothing to do today... so I updated it. I know this is not gonna get made, but w.e, I had fun.

 

General:

• Updated the wording on some spells and fixed typos.

 

Creation:

• Galvanism changed to improve most active Creation spells. Some existing effects have been moved to Galvanism (like increasing number of bounces on Chain Lightning)
• Lightning Strike now a to Chain Lightning upgrade. It's a spell addition, meaning upgraded Chain Lightning gives you a new spell instead of modifying it. Both spell share the same cooldown.
• Lightning Strike replaced with Storm Infusion.

 

Spirit

• Draining Spirit renamed Devouring Spirit and is now single-target. Upgrade changed to Death Knell.
• Spirit-Coat upgrade, Soul Marrow, changed.

 

Entropy

• Mind Rot upgrade, Affliction, changed.

 

Yes, I like the way Blizzard does patch notes.

[eyezonlyii]

I actually love this. I didn't read through all of the spells and trees, but from what I did, it's great. What I would like to see added, (not necessarily from you, though it would be cool) are two weapon trees for mages. Something like a staff tree and a barehanded tree. That's actually something that bothered me about the game, especially playing a qunari mage. At the beginning, all mages can tell Cassandra that they don't need a staff to cast spells, but the game makes you have one anyway. Then later, when talking to either Bull or Vivienne, you can mention that you were trained by an ex-Saarabas. But from what we saw in DA2, the Saarabas didn't have a staff (maybe he dropped it or something), but from the lore we get, they aren't really adept at magic anyway, so the qunari probably don't invest in them. 

 

But if you could mock those up, I would be super excited.

[Enigmatick]

This is really good, names aside I would love to see magic handeled like this.

 

On closer inspection that heat mana mechanic sounds like an unecessary resource.

 

I'm not sure how to feel about the estus flasks you proposed.

[Epzaos]

What about the specializations?

We definitely need that Blood Magic back.

[Enigmatick]

What about the specializations?

We definitely need that Blood Magic back.

He was just focusing on the 4 main schools as said in the OP.

[eyezonlyii]

What about the specializations?

We definitely need that Blood Magic back.

I don't think so. Not until they can really get into how people would react to a blood mage, which is the entire reason it was cut from this game. Plus, blood magic is the OP of OP (considering mages are OP in the lore) and thus would make the warrior and rogue peasants...er characters obsolete.

[Enigmatick]

Wait, considering absorb heat's changes shouldn't it just be called Cone of Cold now?

[eyezonlyii]

Also, what program was this made in? In Design?