35 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

Should the new protagonist acy in a style similar to the paragon/renegade system like Shepard did, pr not? I spend some time reading posts from fans of Mass Effect and Dragon Age (without delving into unrelared spoilers) and we "complain" on how our characters act. Such as the character being too brutal or not brutal enough etc, I recently started watching Firefly after seeing the movie Serenity and took some inspiration from Mal (main character).

 

I found the character to be quite different among the "classic" heroes, as Mal portrayed a man not trying to be a hero, He was his own person, a Renegon if you get my meaning on that term. I am not saying the new protagonist should be like Mal, but take some inspiration from the character.

 

Extract from Wikipedia: "the character Malcolm Reynolds was the only definite character he had in mind when formulating the ensemble cast. He wanted a hero, but not a hero in the classic sense; someone that is "everything that a hero is not.".

 

It is hard to make sense of what I am trying to propose, but I hope we have the option to show a brutal and dark personality but within reason. And I do hope we do not get roped into a ME3 style of Shepard's behaviour showing forced emotion of regret and such which some of us prefered if it was an option to choose wether to express regret or a not-caring attitude.

[Lethaya]

I don't think DA should move onto a ME style Paragon/Renegade protagonist, no. The thing I love about Dragon Age, that, for me, makes it so different to the way ME is told, is that there is no obvious right or wrong decision (or at least the games don't TELL you if something is wrong, it's up to your own moral compass to figure it out). Mass Effect is more obvious, which isn't bad, but I like that overall the morality in DA feels more... gray. ME is a lot more direct.

 

As for what I'd want, I have no clue. Some personality? XD The Inquisitor was fine, but they made me really miss humorous options from DA2 or the sheer amount of options we were given in DA:O more than anything else. A balance between those two aspects would be nice, but I get how a protagonist with more of a... clean slate would be easier to write while still allowing players to maintain multiple head canon personality types.

 

Eh? XD

[RoboticWater]

As much as I like a robust roleplaying experience, I don't think BioWare's cinematic approach to RPG storytelling lends itself to incredibly diverse dialog options. Given the scope of their games, it might not be feasible to form so many quality interactions with a consistent voiced PC. I think their best bet might be to replicate a character like Geralt from the Witcher series, who is a defined character, yet relatively open to player input.

 

I'd rather know up front that the character isn't exactly me, but one with my conscience. I don't mean reduce the number of dialog options, but reduce each choice's scope. For example: in a conversation, the PC will get emotional by his or herself and the options would work within that. The "renegade" option would be scathing (I'd actually like BioWare to get rid of simple P/R dichotomy, but the words are still good descriptors), the "neutral" option would try to hide the emotion, and the "paragon" option would try to calm everyone down (or not exist given the scenario). The choices are still there, but aren't polar opposites.

 

The downside is, of course, technically less freedom with the PC, but I think the benefit of a solid main character whose more than just a monotone with questions or a bipolar lunatic would fit nicely within the kind of games BioWare like to make. Since the scope is relatively small, the writers and actors don't need to be so nebulous and have a much easier time reacting to the player's attitude.

 

As I said, I'm not opposed to roleplaying, I'm only suggesting that realistically, it's hard to make good stories with a lot of choices in them. Very few games have effectively pulled off diverse a PC while maintaining a solid core narrative (I've only ever seen Obsidian do it very well). I also don't mind a blank android that merely telegraph's the player's decisions as long the supporting cast is good enough, but I don't see why BioWare couldn't play around with a more defined main character.

[Larry-3]

I like the Paragon/Renegade system. I just wish it did not dictate what options are available during conversation. I think your morality should be how other people see you, not what you can say. For example: if you are mostly renegade with about 30% paragon, people will see you as rude and mean, but a softy inside. Or if you are mostly paragon with about 30% renegade, people would see you as a caring person who can become hostile if provoked.

It made more sense when we had to invest points into Charm in Mass Effect 1. Just because you are fully renegade does not mean you cannot say something nice.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Paragon renegade is too situational. Considering how unpredictable the paraphrase method is, the P/R system just obfuscates things more.

Just be rid of it, make charisma a skill, and have three options(or more if necessary to change the tone) again.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I liked how it was handled in the first Mass Effect, where Renegade was often a pragmatic choice, making for more interesting and challenging decisions. As they progressed through ME 2 and ME 3, it seemed like they could have switched the names for "Nice" and "Jerk," and it would have been more accurate.

[God]

Let's chuck the whole morality system please. It puts to much pressure on the writers to make the universe adhere to childish black and white values.

[Steelcan]

Heroically

[Lady Artifice]

I'm not really so sure, Renegade Shepard has received seriously inconsistent characterization, imo. Sometimes, if you go full Renegade, they seem like a brilliant pragmatist, and sometimes a thoughtless and brutish thug. 

[KaiserShep]

Heroically

 

DAVID GREATLY APPROVES

[Larry-3]

I liked how it was handled in the first Mass Effect, where Renegade was often a pragmatic choice, making for more interesting and challenging decisions. As they progressed through ME 2 and ME 3, it seemed like they could have switched the names for "Nice" and "Jerk," and it would have been more accurate.

Nice is basically an offshoot of the word paragon, and jerk is basically an offshoot of the word renegade.

[Larry-3]

If you are a rude person, people will see you as a rude person; if you are a nice person, people will see you as a nice person. That is what the morality system should be used for. I like the paragon/renegade system -- I really do -- I just believe that BioWare is using it for the wrong reasons. It should dictate how people respond to you; not how you respond to them. BioWare could even tie it in to the romances. For example: some girls would like paragons more, while other prefer renegades.

[Wulfram]

I'm not really so sure, Renegade Shepard has received seriously inconsistent characterization, imo. Sometimes, if you go full Renegade, they seem like a brilliant pragmatist, and sometimes a thoughtless and brutish thug. 

 

Well it's the players job to characterise their Shepard.  If the Renegade option in this case doesn't fit your Shepard, then pick something else.

 

Only real problem I think is when you get two extreme options, so if you don't want your pragmatic renegade to go all brutish they have to go all lovey dovey Paragon.

[katamuro]

The problem was that either the choices are not that different from each other or sometimes the short version is quite far off from what is actually said. There needs to be clearer line between the dialogue choices and clearer indication of what is being actually said. 

On that the DA2 version of the wheel thing was quite good, the paragon choices were paragon, renegade were renegade and the middle one was hilarious. Despite how it ended DA2 is worth playing just for the various character interactions you get and Hawke is still my favourite out of all the DA game heroes.

[Abelas Forever!]

I don't mind paragon/renegade system. Even though there isn't that kind of system in DA series I would still say that you could quite easily see which one of the choices are paragon and which ones are renegade so the choices aren't that grey in DA. Anyway I'm interested in seeing even more grey choices in future games and it would be nice to have a neutral option in conversations in addition to paragon/renegade. I also don't want that my PC will flirt unless I choose to flirt. Playing as female Shepard and talking to Jacob or James was quite weird because Shepard was flirting all the time and I couldn't prevent that. So it would be nice to have more control over your tone in conversations.

 

I think the renegade options have become even less renegade in ME3.  I started playing ME3 after a break and I feel that choosing renegade options makes most sense in most situations and I would say that they are normal responses not renegade. In most situations paragon choices feel too nice and inappriate. I hope this changes in next ME. I don't want to play pure evil characters but I think the paragon choices have become too good and you could easily become everybody's best friend. I guess I'm hoping that you could not always be everybody's best friend even if you choose paragon choices all the time. So it would be nice that depending on your actions different people would approve/dissapprove and that would determine their reaction to you like in DA series. I would expand this to allies so that if you have chosen certain choices then you can't ally with them. For example you could ask their help but they wouldn't help you. Of course this makes things quite complicated but I think some day this is possible. In DA this is done so that you will have to choose between two choices but I would expand it so that your actions in other missions or who are your friends would affect this.

[BioWareM0d13]

Chuck the morality system.

 

Having said that, the range of responses to any situation is always going to limited to two basic character types even if they are no longer referred to as paragon or renegade. Word budgets are going to place limits on the variations of the main character that can be written.

 

As to what sort of character the protagonist should be...I think that depends in large part on the character's background and backstory. If the character is from a military background like Shepard, the two basic character types should be someone cut from the same cloth as Jean Luc Picard from Star Trek: The Next Generation and the other Jack Bauer in space. Ruthless actions shouldn't be about committing evil for it's own sake, but rather it should be in pursuit of accomplishing the mission or achieving some greater good. What used to be called renegade, should be more about ruthless pragmatism than mustache-twirling evil. A psychotic would not last long in the Alliance and would not realistically be in the position your character finds himself or herself at the start of the game.

 

But what if the character isn't in the Alliance? With a pirate or a mercenary the range of responses to any situation should change. The two basic character types could then be the lovable rogue..think Han Solo in the first Star Wars film, or someone completely without a moral compass.  While a selfish mass-murderer couldn't work as an N7, it would work for a pirate. 

[Epyon]

We do need more settings rather then everything bad being Renegade and good being Paragon. A morality system should have meters for Shepard's xenophobia, willingness to kill, loyalty to the Council, loyalty to the Alliance and so on.

[Larry-3]

Dragon Age II possesses red, blue, and violet options on its dialogue wheel...

Red: Renegade/Aggressive
Blue: Paragon/Diplomatic
Violet: Mixed of both/Humorous

[This is the End My Friend]

- It should be soft and cuddly.
- With lots of firepower.
- Its eyes should be telescopes.
No.
Periscopes.
No.
Microscopes! Can you come back to me? It should be full of surprises.
- It should never stop dancing.
 

[Kabooooom]

Should the new protagonist acy in a style similar to the paragon/renegade system like Shepard did, pr not? I spend some time reading posts from fans of Mass Effect and Dragon Age (without delving into unrelared spoilers) and we "complain" on how our characters act. Such as the character being too brutal or not brutal enough etc, I recently started watching Firefly after seeing the movie Serenity and took some inspiration from Mal (main character).

I found the character to be quite different among the "classic" heroes, as Mal portrayed a man not trying to be a hero, He was his own person, a Renegon if you get my meaning on that term. I am not saying the new protagonist should be like Mal, but take some inspiration from the character.

Extract from Wikipedia: "the character Malcolm Reynolds was the only definite character he had in mind when formulating the ensemble cast. He wanted a hero, but not a hero in the classic sense; someone that is "everything that a hero is not.".

It is hard to make sense of what I am trying to propose, but I hope we have the option to show a brutal and dark personality but within reason. And I do hope we do not get roped into a ME3 style of Shepard's behaviour showing forced emotion of regret and such which some of us prefered if it was an option to choose wether to express regret or a not-caring attitude.

Mal is a reluctant hero. Characters like that are actually my favorite sort of hero. It isn't that they are "paragon" or "renegade", but that they don't WANT to be heroes. They have their own plans, their own lives, but ordinary people placed in extraordinary situations can sometimes rise to the occasion and be extraordinary. That's Mal.

That wouldn't work for Shep or a character like him for a lot of reasons. First off, he is a space marine, and a reluctant hero personality wouldn't work. He is a warrior and a protector by trade. Secondly, he is an avatar of the player. More control over his personality should be granted to the player via dialogue options.

But, those dialogue options should not be "paragon" or "renegade". It forces a black and white, infantile and simplistic view of morality on the writing of the story. That's why my Shep inevitably ends up paragade. Sometimes, choosing a paragon option is correct, and sometimes choosing a renegade option is correct.

The ONLY way a background personality like Mal would really work for an otherwise blank slate protagonist would be if the main character was not a space marine, but instead a smuggler, mercenary, explorer or similar type of character who just wants to do what they do without being the savior of the galaxy. Such characters are particularly good when they actually resist rising to the occasion and saving the day, but ultimately do so anyways. It makes them more human. More relatable.

[wright1978]

I don't want repeat of forced characterisation and forced emotion seen in me3.
I'm not particularly tied to the paragon-renegade morality system. I never one to stick to a single route but pick the option that best suited the situation.i think there should at times be brutal options available, at other times practical, at other diplomatic. Hope there's middle option as well if there's two extremes.

[Lady Artifice]

Well it's the players job to characterise their Shepard.  If the Renegade option in this case doesn't fit your Shepard, then pick something else.

 

Only real problem I think is when you get two extreme options, so if you don't want your pragmatic renegade to go all brutish they have to go all lovey dovey Paragon.

 

Of course, but the issue I'm talking about is more a matter of flavor than substance. I wanted to play a Shepard that was, entirely, a ruthless jerk. But I wanted him to be an intelligent ruthless jerk, and sometimes that came across brilliantly. Other times, it didn't, and it wasn't always in ways someone could tell from the wording of the dialogue option. 

 

I'm thinking of moments like expressing distrust of Nihlus, and having no other reason to give than, "He's a Turian." That's fine, and thanks to the mutual tension between Humans and Turians it does actually convey potentially more sentiment than just speciesism. But I would have preferred the option to distrust him because Shepard distrusts the council and their Spectres. Not because they're aliens, but because they're politicians. 

 

It's not really meant as an earnest criticism. I'm aware of the problem of resources and word budgets, and the fact that not every dialogue option can make the PC say exactly what I want. It's just that I felt a lot more cohesion within the character of my Paragon Shepard than I did my Renegade. With her, it felt like playing the same character throughout. With him, it felt like he had something of a personality disorder. Even if that's entirely my responsibility, I found the responsibility significantly easier to handle in the case of Paragon Shepard. 

[Dunmer of Redoran]

No morality, just approval.

 

Having good/evil morality is only possible if the story includes a moral force that defines good and evil. Mass Effect doesn't have that, so it doesn't work. Dragon Age doesn't, either, since even divine forces have ambiguous goals and abilities and there is no singular omnipotent definer of right and wrong.

 

Leave things up to the people around the player character to decide. But give me a way to talk my way into approval, out of disapproval (or vice-versa if I play my cards wrong) based upon my character's ability to negotiate.

[Han Yolo]

Violet: Mixed of both/Humorous

 

Yes!!!! Give me snark!!! Like, Hawke level of snark! Pwetty Pleeeeease?

[Abelas Forever!]

No morality, just approval.

 

Having good/evil morality is only possible if the story includes a moral force that defines good and evil. Mass Effect doesn't have that, so it doesn't work. Dragon Age doesn't, either, since even divine forces have ambiguous goals and abilities and there is no singular omnipotent definer of right and wrong.

 

Leave things up to the people around the player character to decide. But give me a way to talk my way into approval, out of disapproval (or vice-versa if I play my cards wrong) based upon my character's ability to negotiate.

I want also approval system instead of morality system. While I like DA way of approval system it still isn't perfect because you can't increase your approval just by talking to people and you can't explain your actions to your companions if you have done something that they disapprove. So I think my ideal approval system would be something that you already described which is that you could talk yourself into approval/ out of disapproval depending on your ability to negotiate. Although I would make some modifications on that such as it would be easier for you to explain your actions to your friends/LI (those who already have high approval) and it would be harder for you to explain your actions to those who has high disapproval. Of course there might be situations where you just can't talk yourself out of disapproval/into approval even though you are very good at negotiating if you have done something that your companion could never tolerate.

Modifié par SilentShadowsNew, 12 mars 2015 - 09:03 .