Questa discussione ha avuto 94 risposte

[themikefest]

I like Ashley. She killed Wrex for me. Excellent. 

[DSiKn355]

Ash doesn't "hate" aliens. Hell, she can essentially become BFF's with Tali. A bit ignorant in the first game, maybe.

Her sentiments seem to be more similar to some kind of human nationalism, ala a Renegade Shepard. Racism has an element of assumed inferiority of other races that she doesn't really express. The dog and bear metaphor she uses doesn't express that the aliens are lesser or humans are superior, just that both will tend to look out for their own interests when push comes to shove. She will sharply criticize the Terra Firma guy more than nearly any other squadmate for the party being tolerant of casual racism and xenophobia if you bring her along.

There is the infamous "aliens and animals" comment, but IIRC one of the devs has explained that it is bugged, and she was only intended to say it when examining one the keepers.

 

 

There's various degrees of racism in the world especially in diverse countries (like mine), there's always a gray area and the lines between sensitivity and tolerance values.

 

I don't think Ashley fit as someone who is speciest. She never hold a pro-human attitude. While I don't agree with Ashley's comments on "people and animals" but that was born out of ignorance. But the distinction here, she doesn't hate aliens because they're non-human, she simply think they're not to be trusted. I believe that a person's opinion and views can change over time and had she become persistent in that ignorance, I would feel strongly about it. But on Virmire, she volunteered immediately to be with the Salarian team. That's a big change especially since she shed her xenophobic tendency without a slice of hesitation for the Salarians! That's a turning point for her as a character...  but I still sacrifice her anyway.

 

First of all can I say that I get the feeling none of you are people of colour to try and whitewash and make excuses for this behaviour.

 

Aoi you say Ash only had "reservations" towards the council races but was Wrex one of the council races? No he wasn't.

 

Q. Master Race (lol says it all) You say there is grey areas to racism? So times when you would allow it?

 

Let me put it like this....

 

IF I said I am a straight man who has a bi friend but cannot stand gay guys do you think I would not be called a homophobe?

 

All you two are doing is trying to make excuses for racism.

There is no grey area and no acceptable racism.

 

She is prejudice towards those of a different race which is racism whether you believe she has reason to be that way or not the fact remains that Ashley is racist lol.

[aoibhealfae]

First of all can I say that I get the feeling none of you are people of colour to try and whitewash and make excuses for this behaviour.

 

Aoi you say Ash only had "reservations" towards the council races but was Wrex one of the council races? No he wasn't.

 

Q. Master Race (lol says it all) You say there is grey areas to racism? So times when you would allow it?

 

Let me put it like this....

 

IF I said I am a straight man who has a bi friend but cannot stand gay guys do you think I would not be called a homophobe?

 

All you two are doing is trying to make excuses for racism.

There is no grey area and no acceptable racism.

 

She is prejudice towards those of a different race which is racism whether you believe she has reason to be that way or not the fact remains that Ashley is racist lol.

 

Racism, for me, span around prejudices born out of discriminatory socio-political privileges and classification according to race, class and religion. In my country, we have a lot of restrictive and very racist policies to protect 'special privileges' for select few (mostly monarchs) and people argue about politics all the time... which is always not about skin colors because we don't classify races based on their skintones. "people of color" is an American term. I'm not American. I'm Asian (as in I'm native-born Asian). I'm not white either. I'm what East Asian people like to call the people of my region as "poor dark-skinned dog" whenever they thought people couldn't understand their 'heavenly' languages. Trust me, had the people in my country don't learn to tolerate our differences and if we don't learn to change and instead choose to become severely offended just by some select ignorant few... my country could have several civil wars by now (which we don't). Its not a perfect system but everyone still learn to live together happily in a very diverse society. There's some bad eggs every now and then but generally, we don't think people deserve to die just because of their socialized prejudice. The worst case scenarios for these people was jail time. 

 

I don't think Ashley deserve to die just because she say something very ignorant and offensive. She can say whatever she wants but I would only react negatively to her if she try to act on her prejudice. Once, she did kill Wrex and I reacted by letting her die on Virmire. But she didn't kill Wrex because he's a Krogan. She killed him because he tried to kill Shepard. If Garrus, Tali or Liara tried to kill Shepard, Ashley would kill them too. Not because of her prejudice but because its her job. Had she intended to kill every aliens in sight or sabotage the salarians just because she have an irrational hate against aliens, I would be alright to call her a racist ******. Which she isn't. 

Ashley isn't the only xenophobic person and there are displays of racism among your squadmates. ME2's Miranda justify a lot of Cerberus past actions, she's all about sending Veetor and Legion to Cerberus and she's all about "its for humanity's best interest". Tali have severe prejudice against all AI especially Geth and we hardly see her interact with EDI until ME3 and even when she's warming up to Legion, she don't fully trust Legion either. Grunt is very happy about his learned memories of torturing turians and learned hate for turians. Wrex didn't think much about Salarians either except for Mordin (and the Dalatrass was all "please don't cure the krogans because they're so primitive and violent" <-- that's plain racist). Liara still think Asari is way superior than every other race (all those time killing husks and she don't think them as human and then suddenly Asari turned to Banshees and omg its the end of the world for her. And she moaned about how everyone is being so insensitive to her plight). Javik is much worst than Liara and he was more offensive than Ashley since he kept calling EVERYONE as primitives and he is mean to EDI and Legion because of his prejudice against all synthetics. So, why do we tolerate all these but not with Ashley? Was aliens being racist to other aliens isn't a form of racism? 

[Quarian Master Race]

Q. Master Race (lol says it all) You say there is grey areas to racism? So times when you would allow it?

 

My username is an in joke among myself and some other users on the MP forum, but don't let that stop you from jumping to conclusions just as you did with my ethnicity (Karelian-Russian if you must know). I didn't say anything like that (racism is grey), because I don't consider Ashley's perspectives to be based upon racism. I characterized it as an analouge to nationalism, which is based upon adherence to cultural/legal/social values rather than physical racial differences (though those differences can be used as justification to view a nation or culture as superior to another as well, ala fascism). As an example, Ashley expresses concern at Garrus because he essentially works for a foreign governemnt that has engaged in hostilites against humans in the past, and now he has access to sensitive human military information, a reasonable cause for concern. She doesn't go on about how he's a "damn cuttlebone" <(actually, that line is Jacob's, and that is probably closer to racism) or something irrelevant like that.

anyway, the post below yours already hit most of the points I wished to make. I hope you don't consider the synthetics in universe to be a race or species, because then you precious Tali is probably one of the most racist characters in the series by your definition. In addition to the other examples that were mentioned by aoibhealfae which would fit your definition, Garrus is a pretty racist character in ME1 as well, what with his open disparaging of Wrex's and Tali's people during elevator conversations. I hardly think you are being objective with Ashley in this regard, as she's hardly alone in expressing such attitudes.

[DSiKn355]

You're missing a big part of the overall story for simply ignoring her.

 

She's supposed to represent a lot of humans. Humans have only been in contact with aliens for a few decades. It's not Star Trek. It's completely new territory for humanity. She doesn't hate aliens, but like many humans, has a paranoid and "go it alone' mentality.

 

But whatever. Do what you want. I'm not the biggest Ash fan. Just saying.

 

I don't see it as "Missing a big part of the story" as the general human consensus is never brought up.

 

Plus there is always Cerberus for that ignorant mindset lol.

 

 

@Q.Master Race

 

It's this simple.

 

I am playing my own game.

I prefer to choose the company I keep.

It was her or Kaiden.

 

So I chose to kill her. Just like I kept Wrex alive because I liked him.

 

Just like I killed Miranda on the suicide mission just because she was a bit ch and I didn't trust her.

 

And I am sorry I mistook you for Aoi as you can see the quote underneath about racism and a grey area.

 

There's various degrees of racism in the world especially in diverse countries (like mine), there's always a gray area and the lines between sensitivity and tolerance values.

 

 

 

Personally as a mixed race person who has had experience with dealing with racism, I have zero tolerance for that kind of ignorant behaviour so I prefer not to be around it and when given the choice will exercise my right to get rid of those that feel "it's ok" to be ignorant.

 

But that's me

 

Some people believe there is a certain level of racism which is ok apparently but to me racism is racism no matter how underhanded you try to be with it lol

[DSiKn355]

It's General Williams' granddaughter. i.e. First Contact War related stuff. It's a big part of the overall lore. And a big part of the whole series is about humanity's struggle to find a place and identity in the wider galactic community, and the various ways they've gone about it. And the infighting that follows.

 

Cerberus has nothing to do with her. She's anti-Cerberus. 

 

I'm a mixed race person myself btw (Eurasian), and experienced real racism as well. You don't have the upper hand here, for that. I think it's OK if you don't want Ash on the team, but she's more complicated than this. The whole series is, for that matter.. it's not that black and white. 

 

For all the first contact war, whoevers granddaughter.... none of it actually matters when playing the game.

It's a big part if you are reading all materials (books/comics/codex) and it is referenced a lot then fine. But that isn't the case with the game.

 

I safely completed the trilogy without knowing the ins and outs of the first contact war no problem.

I never felt like I had missed anything at all.

 

I am not mentioning my ethnicity for "a upper hand" lol.

It merely a reasoning behind my point and here I show you the hypocrisy....

 

Ashley's reasoning for her prejudice is fine but my reasoning for not tolerating prejudice isnt?

 

Cerberus has the same views pro human (apparently) but just go about it in a more extreme method right?

 

It's as complicated as you want to make it my friend.

[aoibhealfae]

I don't see it as "Missing a big part of the story" as the general human consensus is never brought up.

 

Plus there is always Cerberus for that ignorant mindset lol.

 

 

@Q.Master Race

 

It's this simple.

 

I am playing my own game.

I prefer to choose the company I keep.

It was her or Kaiden.

 

So I chose to kill her. Just like I kept Wrex alive because I liked him.

 

Just like I killed Miranda on the suicide mission just because she was a bit ch and I didn't trust her.

 

And I am sorry I mistook you for Aoi as you can see the quote underneath about racism and a grey area.

 

 

Personally as a mixed race person who has had experience with dealing with racism, I have zero tolerance for that kind of ignorant behaviour so I prefer not to be around it and when given the choice will exercise my right to get rid of those that feel "it's ok" to be ignorant.

 

But that's me

 

Some people believe there is a certain level of racism which is ok apparently but to me racism is racism no matter how underhanded you try to be with it lol

 

Everyone deals with racism and discrimination at one point in their life, regardless whether you're a minority or a majority among your demographic. There's various context of what other people see as "racism" which you might not think as offensive, for instance, labeling people by their skin tone is very racist and derogatory in my culture. Yet, I don't blindly accuse internet people who do that as ignorant and racist just because I thought it wasn't a norm to me. (because living near the equator meant everyone came in all variety of shades of color so classifying someone's race based on that is redundant and as if skin whitening business isn't already bad as it is)

 

And I never say that I am okay with people staying in ignorance nor do I endorse them. Like it or not, ignorant people can unlearn their ignorance. The best way you could do was to educate them to unlearn the prejudice and help them grow up as a person. Shaming someone with just a singular name because of their ignorance would only perpetuate their ignorance even more. And bigotry is even harder to eradicate.

[DSiKn355]

 

No. Because you're killing her specifically for this reason. When she doesn't do the same to others. You're not even giving her time. It's just instant death when something makes you uncomfortable.

 

Like I said, I don't care if you don't like her. I don't always want her around either. But don't try to justify it like it's some moral crusade.

 

 

 

It's the subtext of the series. Always there floating over many things. And you're supposed to know some of it. It's not Gears of War. It's an RPG as well. This isn't a series for people who don't care about the world or background.

 

 

Give her time? She has until Virmire which is pretty much near the end of the game lol.

In ME2 there is little to no contact with her if I allowed her to live.

So I would need to wait until ME3 to then see a change?

And I am somehow gonna be aware of this from ME1 right? lol

 

Maybe it's me but usually in the rpg's I play the information is given to me and it doesn't require me hunting through walls of text to get it.

 

Everyone deals with racism and discrimination at one point in their life, regardless whether you're a minority or a majority among your demographic. There's various context of what other people see as "racism" which you might not think as offensive, for instance, labeling people by their skin tone is very racist and derogatory in my culture. Yet, I don't blindly accuse internet people who do that as ignorant and racist just because I thought it wasn't a norm to me. (because living near the equator meant everyone came in all variety of shades of color so classifying someone's race based on that is redundant and as if skin whitening business isn't already bad as it is)

 

And I never say that I am okay with people staying in ignorance nor do I endorse them. Like it or not, ignorant people can unlearn their ignorance. The best way you could do was to educate them to unlearn the prejudice and help them grow up as a person. Shaming someone with just a singular name because of their ignorance would only perpetuate their ignorance even more. And bigotry is even harder to eradicate.

 

You are now talking about real life teaching the ignorant.

Where in the game (ME1) can I do this with Ashley?

 

And when you say "labeling people by their skin tone" what do you mean exactly?

Is it saying "black man" is racist where you are from?

[DSiKn355]

You don't have to wade through that. But it'd do some good if you did. You're not playing yourself. You're playing a Soldier who should be familiar with his own people's history.

 

She tells you some things herself though. It sounded like you cut her off before that. Like the minute something made you uncomfortable, you decided to kill her and stop talking. lol

 

And then you think that makes you better.. when she doesn't kill aliens herself. You're making her level of intolerance into something it is not. She's casual about it, and is actually willing to think about things.

 

Well when my options are her that requires me to think about how she could potential be a better person and Kaidan who has done nothing wrong and is generally understand then "kill her" becomes the only option really lol.

 

Whats with the "And then you think that makes you better.." its not a contest and I aint trying to score points.

 

It's very simple. I don't like her, I get given a choice she dies or kaidan does, so I choose her to die end of story.

 

You people then wanna complain and convince me I am wrong for killing her based on the deciding factor of she is racist/ignorant/prejudice/whatever lol.

 

And when playing a role its the character and his history that is most important to know. not general history unless it plays a part in your role. And mine wasn't descended from a line of alliance officers so alliance history is not vital to my heritage or role.

[Madrict]

Kaidan

Miranda

Garrus

James

Tali

[aoibhealfae]

Is it saying "black man" is racist where you are from?

Do you think you can simply call everyone as "black" or "white" in a society filled with very diverse ethnic groups where everyone in a single ethnicity can be both shades and somewhere in between? Can you differentiate a dark-skinned Aboriginal Asians (negrito is an ethnic group here), dark-skinned Indian, dark-skinned Malay, dark-skinned mixed-race Asian, dark-skinned American from African-decent or dark-skinned African from Africa region?  Can you differentiate a native east asian and southeast asian of east asian descent simply by their skin color? There's a lot of Asians who are naturally light and pale skin as well even without the help of whitening skincare (<-- which is still a booming cosmetic business) and yet people don't call them "white".

 

Calling a person by any color is acknowledging their skin more than them as an individual. Judging a person prematurely based on their looks is always a bad thing anyway. There's a lot of bad profanities in several languages that emphasis on color like "hitam legam" (black) or "banana" (yellow on the outside, white in the inside) or "yellow" which means pervert in chinese etc. And yes, all these are racist stereotypes here. Asians are proud people with their own rich history and culture and traditions and people here generally like you to acknowledge them by their ethnic roots and customs rather than their looks. Even east asians (from Korea, Japan and China) are very diverse lots with their own rich cultures and yet people like to think them as homogeneous because to many, its way too easy to classify people that way. To a degree, assimilation and deculturization do happen and it does have its pros and cons as well and living among these groups doesn't make you immune to bigotry or racist sentiments either.

The term "people of color" itself is an appropriation for diverse ethnic groups of the world, which is why you hardly heard the term being used outside US. It didn't make sense for me to treat racism superficially because it is complex and variable across cultures and I have to treat it as such. And it does not make sense for me to treat Ashley's prejudice as black and white. Beside the voice actress herself is what you termed as a "person of color" and so do Javik, and if the subject is offensive to them, they would argue about it just as extensively as you do because it was their voice that give life to these characters. The fact that they allow healthy discussion about racism in fiction is what add to the complexities of Mass Effect universe. 

[DSiKn355]

Do you think you can simply call everyone as "black" or "white" in a society filled with very diverse ethnic groups where everyone in a single ethnicity can be both shades and somewhere in between? Can you differentiate a dark-skinned Aboriginal Asians (negrito is an ethnic group here), dark-skinned Indian, dark-skinned Malay, dark-skinned mixed-race Asian, dark-skinned American from African-decent or dark-skinned African from Africa region?  Can you differentiate a native east asian and southeast asian of east asian descent simply by their skin color? There's a lot of Asians who are naturally light and pale skin as well even without the help of whitening skincare (<-- which is still a booming cosmetic business) and yet people don't call them "white".

 

Calling a person by any color is acknowledging their skin more than them as an individual. Judging a person prematurely based on their looks is always a bad thing anyway. There's a lot of bad profanities in several languages that emphasis on color like "hitam legam" (black) or "banana" (yellow on the outside, white in the inside) or "yellow" which means pervert in chinese etc. And yes, all these are racist stereotypes here. Asians are proud people with their own rich history and culture and traditions and people here generally like you to acknowledge them by their ethnic roots and customs rather than their looks. Even east asians (from Korea, Japan and China) are very diverse lots with their own rich cultures and yet people like to think them as homogeneous because to many, its way too easy to classify people that way. To a degree, assimilation and deculturization do happen and it does have its pros and cons as well and living among these groups doesn't make you immune to bigotry or racist sentiments either.

The term "people of color" itself is an appropriation for diverse ethnic groups of the world, which is why you hardly heard the term being used outside US. It didn't make sense for me to treat racism superficially because it is complex and variable across cultures and I have to treat it as such. And it does not make sense for me to treat Ashley's prejudice as black and white. Beside the voice actress herself is what you termed as a "person of color" and so do Javik, and if the subject is offensive to them, they would argue about it just as extensively as you do because it was their voice that give life to these characters. The fact that they allow healthy discussion about racism in fiction is what add to the complexities of Mass Effect universe. 

 

Wow your long winded lol.

 

But I get what your saying, Identify people by the ethnic group rather than appearance, which is a good thing I must say.

But some people may find it hard especially if they are tourists and not used to seeing so many diverse cultures.

They could be ignorant and call every race they believe to have "Chinese eyes" Chinese which would obviously offend someone but I guess this is that "grey area" you were referring to?

 

And you make a very bad assumption over the voice acting.

They are getting paid to do a job.

It's like saying you don't see films with african-americans or euro-americans being racist lol.

It's a role they are getting paid to play so they play it regardless of whether they personally agree with what the character is saying or not.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

1) Legion

2) Tali

3) Garrus

4) Mordin

5) Grunt

[Rawls]

1. Garrus

2. Liara

3. Wrex

4. Mordin

5. Tali