I might be misrembering, but wasn't there a possessed ogre or an ogre spirit in DA:A?
I was definitly under the impression that it was a question of 'won't' from the demons side instead of 'can't'.
The possessed ogre was dead before it happened. And the spirit orge was in da:a
We have confirmed cases of possessed Wardens. This alone makes the idea of Taint preventing possession controversial to say the least..
That is not the same as possessed Darkspawn. There is in the Return to Ostagar DLC a case of an Ogre being raised from the dead but again that is not possession merely necromancy
Guest_varricschesthair_*
My magic 8 ball says:
Spirits can't become tainted because they are not alive. They can possess any living thing and since Darkspawn die, which means they are alive, then yes I would think so. Plus, Darkspawn can come from many different things like tainted people for instance. If something is willing to possess a plant then why not something more useful?
My magic 8 ball says:
Spoiler
Spirits can't become tainted because they are not alive. They can possess any living thing and since Darkspawn die, which means they are alive, then yes I would think so. Plus, Darkspawn can come from many different things like tainted people for instance. If something is willing to possess a plant then why not something more useful?
According to the Chantry spirits are the first children of the Maker therefore we must conclude that they are indeed a life form and have sentience. The Chantry continues that the Maker gave no soul to spirits. Therefore it is contended that many try to gain one through influencing the mind of a soul owner (but not a dwarf). Darkspawn infect all life with their taint and with the exception of Grey Wardens who through the joining ceremony are immunised from the taint through magical formulae, will corrupt it and make it uninhabitable for demons. It is not clear whether a possessed soul can be infected by the darkspawn taint or merely killed physically. We know that killing the possessed merely returns the spirit to the beyond
That I didn't know. Interesting.
Makes more sense knowing the Taint can corrupt lyrium which is a magical substance.
So can spirits get the taint? According to Bianca (from memory) the only requirement to get blighted is being alive, which spirits are. What if demons don't want to possess darkspawn because then they'd be tainted. And since spirits are more or less immortal, once that particular darkspawn died they'd still be a tainted demon, bound to the voices, and that would be like getting possessed themselves. Which would undoubtedly be very embarrassing for a spirit, all their demon friends would laugh at them.
So can spirits get the taint? According to Bianca (from memory) the only requirement to get blighted is being alive, which spirits are. What if demons don't want to possess darkspawn because then they'd be tainted. And since spirits are more or less immortal, once that particular darkspawn died they'd still be a tainted demon, bound to the voices, and that would be like getting possessed themselves. Which would undoubtedly be very embarrassing for a spirit, all their demon friends would laugh at them.
But Urthemiel got un-tainted. I don't think we have a basis for saying that non-physical entity would be tainted.
And saying that spirits are living is, for what we know, a stretch. They keep on existing but their being alive in the same sense as mortals is questionable.
According to the Chantry spirits are the first children of the Maker therefore we must conclude that they are indeed a life form and have sentience. The Chantry continues that the Maker gave no soul to spirits. Therefore it is contended that many try to gain one through influencing the mind of a soul owner (but not a dwarf). Darkspawn infect all life with their taint and with the exception of Grey Wardens who through the joining ceremony are immunised from the taint through magical formulae, will corrupt it and make it uninhabitable for demons. It is not clear whether a possessed soul can be infected by the darkspawn taint or merely killed physically. We know that killing the possessed merely returns the spirit to the beyond
Dude...The chantry lore on spirits are bull. You did not understand that yet.
So can spirits get the taint? According to Bianca (from memory) the only requirement to get blighted is being alive, which spirits are. What if demons don't want to possess darkspawn because then they'd be tainted. And since spirits are more or less immortal, once that particular darkspawn died they'd still be a tainted demon, bound to the voices, and that would be like getting possessed themselves. Which would undoubtedly be very embarrassing for a spirit, all their demon friends would laugh at them.
What says that Spirits are alive.
Dude...The chantry lore on spirits are bull. You did not understand that yet.According to the Chantry spirits are the first children of the Maker therefore we must conclude that they are indeed a life form and have sentience. The Chantry continues that the Maker gave no soul to spirits. Therefore it is contended that many try to gain one through influencing the mind of a soul owner (but not a dwarf). Darkspawn infect all life with their taint and with the exception of Grey Wardens who through the joining ceremony are immunised from the taint through magical formulae, will corrupt it and make it uninhabitable for demons. It is not clear whether a possessed soul can be infected by the darkspawn taint or merely killed physically. We know that killing the possessed merely returns the spirit to the beyond
And even if it (Chantry lore, I mean) was 100% true, it still wouldn't make spirits living beings in the same way humans are. And spirits don't have bodies, they do have (or are) souls. It's the immutable part that's the new idea, not the soul, notice:
Emergance of Spirits:
And His Word became all that might be:
Dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.
And from it made his firstborn.
And creation of humans:
At last did the Maker
From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth,
With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.
Description of what Spirits are made of and the nature of human soul pretty much boil down to repeating the same line. If you want to accept Chantry lore, spirits are alive in the same sense as dead person is alive: as disembodied spiritual entity in the Fade.
But Urthemiel got un-tainted. I don't think we have a basis for saying that non-physical entity would be tainted.
And saying that spirits are living is, for what we know, a stretch. They keep on existing but their being alive in the same sense as mortals is questionable.
A good point having sentience is not the same as engaging in group activities, socialising, etc but they do appear to have a heirarchy
Dude...The chantry lore on spirits are bull. You did not understand that yet.
Why are you ascribing my views to those of the Chantry, when all I did was quote from their bigoted doctrine and draw obvious conclusions? I would appear to not be the one who lacks understanding
And even if it (Chantry lore, I mean) was 100% true, it still wouldn't make spirits living beings in the same way humans are. And spirits don't have bodies, they do have (or are) souls. It's the immutable part that's the new idea, not the soul, notice:
Emergance of Spirits:And His Word became all that might be:
Dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.
And from it made his firstborn.And creation of humans:
At last did the Maker
From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth,
With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.
Description of what Spirits are made of and the nature of human soul pretty much boil down to repeating the same line. If you want to accept Chantry lore, spirits are alive in the same sense as dead person is alive: as disembodied spiritual entity in the Fade.
Ah! Now we move to an interesting theology, human(ish). It is reasonable to assume that Chantry scholars are limited by their ability to comprehend such things. That doesn't prevent them from producing an idiots guide to the Maker and the Chant for the purpose of exerting political control over everything
Whether you believe that spirits are disembodied humans awaiting judgement by the Creator God(s), that humans carry a divine spark, or that spirits are the soulless first creations of the Maker there has to be a difference between animating a dead body through a process initiated by adepts whether within or without the fade, and a spirit possessing a fully functioning sentient human. Humans, unlike spirits own a corporeal existence. Also it could be argued that animating a corpse involves the will of either (a) a powerful spirit or () the will of an individual enslaving a spirit using lyrium.
If we remember that the Elves and ancient lore were around long before the Chantry decided to sweep all other beliefs away in furtherance of it's ambitions, then we can take the eXistence of the "Maker" for what we will. The lore that has been uncovered does not dispute the existence of spirits or the "other side" but other than Chantry myth we have no other explanation for the appearance of the Darkspawn at all other than the Dwarven Shaper records of them suddenly springing into existence.
Therefore, it would seem that Darkspawn fall outside the original "scheme of Thedas" which consisted of the long lived, spirits, and "Old" Gods. To date I have seen no evidence of a process whereby Darkspawn have been possessed. Mutated yes but controlled via or by spirits? No
I don't think there's any system of belief in Thedas that would suggest Spirits being dead humans. Human souls being closely related to Spirits - yes. Spirits don't have bodies, but what they do have is as close to human soul as it gets. Either way saying that "spirits are alive" is preposterous unless you have some solid definition of living being - and we don't, and even if we did, we wouldn't know what definition is actually used in assumption that "only living things can be Tainted".
And as for lack of evidence - there is also no evidence of Taint affecting spiritual beings. To the contrary, we have at least one confirmed case of Archdemon - as Tainted as it gets - being freed of the taint after its death. It could be an effect of the ritual, but iirc Morrigan implied that the ritual is needed to capture the soul rather than cleanse it in any way. In light of this incident there is no basis for claim that a demon that possesses a Darkspawn would be tainted. It could lose control for as long as the Darkspawn lives, but after its death it would most likely be freed from the taint too.
Evidence suggesting (though admittedly not proving) possibility of demon-possessed darkspawn is much stronger seeing as it's explicitly possible for Tainted creatures (like Gray Wardens) to be possessed.
(also, please do fix formatting in your post, Cobwebmaster, your reply is marked as another quote from me...)
I don't think there's any system of belief in Thedas that would suggest Spirits being dead humans. Human souls being closely related to Spirits - yes. Spirits don't have bodies, but what they do have is as close to human soul as it gets. Either way saying that "spirits are alive" is preposterous unless you have some solid definition of living being - and we don't, and even if we did, we wouldn't know what definition is actually used in assumption that "only living things can be Tainted".
And as for lack of evidence - there is also no evidence of Taint affecting spiritual beings. To the contrary, we have at least one confirmed case of Archdemon - as Tainted as it gets - being freed of the taint after its death. It could be an effect of the ritual, but iirc Morrigan implied that the ritual is needed to capture the soul rather than cleanse it in any way. In light of this incident there is no basis for claim that a demon that possesses a Darkspawn would be tainted. It could lose control for as long as the Darkspawn lives, but after its death it would most likely be freed from the taint too.
Evidence suggesting (though admittedly not proving) possibility of demon-possessed darkspawn is much stronger seeing as it's explicitly possible for Tainted creatures (like Gray Wardens) to be possessed.
(also, please do fix formatting in your post, Cobwebmaster, your reply is marked as another quote from me...)
Apologies for formatting I have vision impairment. will try to correct
Far from being preposterous I did not suggest that spirits were "alive" but a life form in an earlier post. If you accept that spirits/demons have a hierarchy, and a will to possess a living creature then you must credit them with sentience!
Tainted creatures "like" Grey Wardens are alive at the time of possession and occupy a physical body No comment is made on what happens when the taint finally forces them into a metamorphosis. Darkspawn and ghouls (DA Origins Deep Roads quest A Mother's ..) are corrupted life forms. Warden's "taint" as you put it is based on an alchemical formula, self administered and delays the physical corruption of the flesh and the destruction of the "soul" for a few years, while enabling an early warning radar system in humanoids of the approach of a blight and/or darkspawn.
I challenge you to show me the evidence that Darkspawn have been "possessed" in the sense that a Demon has possessed one either in a DA game, or in the written histories uncovered of the chantry. As far as we know there were no Darkspawn before that. and no references have been found in ancient Elven lore
In terms of possessing a soul, Christians believe that only humans have a soul, but are not divine. It is integral to their doctrine. Meanwhile Gnostics believe that each of us carries the divine spark, while Buddhists have no core (theistic) belief, they do assert that perfection in "self" is the way to achieve enlightenment
Me? I've been an atheist for over 50 years
If the point in this thread is to speculate on the possibility that Darkspawn COULD be possessed then go right ahead and dream about it. For myself, as far as I have been able to determine there is no hard evidence in DA to support such a theory
It gets better! Turning EVERYONE into intelligent darkspawn would stop the Blights too!
There was even an attempt at doing just that, afaik
Quoth the Architect;
"And it would have worked too, if not for you meddling kids and your dog!"
(Actually the Scooby Gang were involved in The Calling, think about it?! Maric is Fred, Fiona is Daphne, Utha is Velma, Kell is Shaggy and Hafter is Scooby...)
Apologies for formatting I have vision impairment. will try to correct
Far from being preposterous I did not suggest that spirits were "alive" but a life form in an earlier post. If you accept that spirits/demons have a hierarchy, and a will to possess a living creature then you must credit them with sentience!
Tainted creatures "like" Grey Wardens are alive at the time of possession and occupy a physical body No comment is made on what happens when the taint finally forces them into a metamorphosis. Darkspawn and ghouls (DA Origins Deep Roads quest A Mother's ..) are corrupted life forms. Warden's "taint" as you put it is based on an alchemical formula, self administered and delays the physical corruption of the flesh and the destruction of the "soul" for a few years, while enabling an early warning radar system in humanoids of the approach of a blight and/or darkspawn.
I challenge you to show me the evidence that Darkspawn have been "possessed" in the sense that a Demon has possessed one either in a DA game, or in the written histories uncovered of the chantry. As far as we know there were no Darkspawn before that. and no references have been found in ancient Elven lore
In terms of possessing a soul, Christians believe that only humans have a soul, but are not divine. It is integral to their doctrine. Meanwhile Gnostics believe that each of us carries the divine spark, while Buddhists have no core (theistic) belief, they do assert that perfection in "self" is the way to achieve enlightenment
Me? I've been an atheist for over 50 years
If the point in this thread is to speculate on the possibility that Darkspawn COULD be possessed then go right ahead and dream about it. For myself, as far as I have been able to determine there is no hard evidence in DA to support such a theory
If there was hard evidence that darkspawn could be possessed, this thread wouldn't last long. We have to speculate. And we do. What do we know?
1. Living creatures (animals, humanoids) can be possessed.
2. Corpses can be possessed.
3. Plants can be possessed.
Moreover we know that Urthemiel's soul was not tainted after being removed from cycle of reincarnation through Darkspawn, so it seems that spiritual beings don't get irreversibly tainted.
You say that Darkspawn and ghouls - unlike all other living creatures - are uninhabitable for demons. That's a very strong claim and it's you who should provide some evidence, or at least some strong support from the lore - "I've never seen an obviously possessed Darkspawn" is like saying "My dog is immortal, I've never seen it die". It's the person making the claim that should provide explanation why her dog is so different as to not be able to die.
All you do so far is claiming that demons don't have sould which you base on Chantry belief while I proved that Chantry believes something contrary to what you propose - Spirits are almost identical to souls, the primary distinction being lack of physical body.
You also claim destruction of soul/spirit by Taint while I provided you with example of soul/spirit that was not only inhabiting a tainted body but could be removed and was not tainted afterwards.
So why exactly would Darkspawn or ghoul be uninhabitable for a spirit?
If there was hard evidence that darkspawn could be possessed, this thread wouldn't last long. We have to speculate. And we do. What do we know?
1. Living creatures (animals, humanoids) can be possessed.
2. Corpses can be possessed.
3. Plants can be possessed.
Moreover we know that Urthemiel's soul was not tainted after being removed from cycle of reincarnation through Darkspawn, so it seems that spiritual beings don't get irreversibly tainted.
You say that Darkspawn and ghouls - unlike all other living creatures - are uninhabitable for demons. That's a very strong claim and it's you who should provide some evidence, or at least some strong support from the lore - "I've never seen an obviously possessed Darkspawn" is like saying "My dog is immortal, I've never seen it die". It's the person making the claim that should provide explanation why her dog is so different as to not be able to die.
All you do so far is claiming that demons don't have sould which you base on Chantry belief while I proved that Chantry believes something contrary to what you propose - Spirits are almost identical to souls, the primary distinction being lack of physical body.
You also claim destruction of soul/spirit by Taint while I provided you with example of soul/spirit that was not only inhabiting a tainted body but could be removed and was not tainted afterwards.
So why exactly would Darkspawn or ghoul be uninhabitable for a spirit?
Thanks for the laugh!
Thanks for the laugh!
Well, admittedly that's your strongest argument so far, seeing as this time you're neither contradicting any lore nor making any logical fellacies...
You almost convinced me this time.
Quoth the Architect;
"And it would have worked too, if not for you meddling kids and your dog!"
(Actually the Scooby Gang were involved in The Calling, think about it?! Maric is Fred, Fiona is Daphne, Utha is Velma, Kell is Shaggy and Hafter is Scooby...)
That's brilliant, never thought about it like that before. Out of positive votes at the moment, regrettably, so just pretend I gave you one.
Personally, I don't think darkspawn could fall prey to possession myself. Even if you disregard what Avernus told us, the darkspawn still don't have any souls. Consciousness, perhaps, but not souls as defined in the lore of the franchise. So, in same ways, it's kinda similar to how demons can possess the Tranquil, but their lack of emotions coupled with their capacity to resist make them poor options when there are perfectly good mages running around whose brains they could jump into. Also, let's not forget that the darkspawn are, on some level, always in the thrall of the Old Gods; even when there's no Blight, they're still compelled by the song to seek them out. Would any demon run the risk of being enslaved to that same power? Could they even resist it?
We saw mage Darkspawn, so it leads me to assume that Darkspawn are susceptible to possession.
We saw mage Darkspawn, so it leads me to assume that Darkspawn are susceptible to possession.
Isn't darkspawn magic effectively blood magic, though? Them drawing on the power of the taint?
This made me think. Archdemons are only permanently killed when their souls try to inhabit the body of a Grey Warden; their souls clash, with oft-explosive result. But when a demon or spirit possesses someone, neither of them are destroyed. They become something of both. What does that imply?
The basic idea of typical possession isn't as much co-habitation of the body or replacing of original soul as keeping possessed person's soul trapped in the Fade while the demon controls the body - to an extent through the soul. In less "severe" cases of possession, mortal's soul still remains in the material world while the spirit gets some glimpses of the material world...This made me think. Archdemons are only permanently killed when their souls try to inhabit the body of a Grey Warden; their souls clash, with oft-explosive result. But when a demon or spirit possesses someone, neither of them are destroyed. They become something of both. What does that imply?
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