125 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

On the heels of the disaster of the other thread, I'd like to propose a thread wherein we actually discuss what an RPG is, and whether DA: I fits the criteria. I'd appreciate it if we could try and frame the discussion in a way wherein a necessary condition(s) for an RPG is listed, and an examination of whether DA: I fits the bill. It doesn't mean "here's something that's in a lot of RPGs and DAI sucks."

 

(Oh, and if you already have a sufficient set of conditions, go for it)

 

On the heels of my debate with SomeoneStoleMyName, I'd like to propose one condition in rough form so we can maybe refine it:

 

An RPG is a game that provides the framework to express different types of characters within the player-character.

 

The phrase "type" here is vague. What I want the phrase to mean is that through dialogue or action, the game provides different avenues of "progression" either through a conversation, quest, or otherwise. A game that only provides one way to proceed through a conversation (ie, no input from the player) AND one way to proceed through the quest/mission structure is not an RPG. The interesting part there is whether a game that provides one or the other is an RPG.

 

DA: I does both, in my opinion, whether it does them satisfactorily or not. Certainly there are multiple avenues of progressing through a conversation, in a way that allows you to consistently maintain a character. It also provides multiple avenues of completion through the content, though this usually takes the form of what kind of build you make, less so alternate ways to complete a quest than combat.

 

Suggestions?

[phantomrachie]

The answer to your question is yes - of course it is. It meets any criteria you can think of to define an RPG. If DA:I is not an RPG then the Final Fantasy Series, the Elder Scrolls Series, Mass Effect, Fallout 3/NV etc are probably not RPGs either.

 

What is potentially up for debate about DA:I RPG status is - is it good or not?

 

I think a better question would be 'what is your definition of an RPG' but even then I think we've discussed that many times and it generally boils down to 'games I like are RPGs, games I don't aren't'.

 

Personally though I would define an RPG as follows

 

A game where I can choose dialogue options for a character, where there are different possible outcomes of the game or of individual quests (either via different character outcomes or story outcomes) and where I must maintain that character via amour, leveling etc

 

Everything else is a sauce that defines that type of RPG you are playing, Pen & Paper, cRPG, JRPG, ARPG etc. but if you boil all RPGs down to their basics, I believe all will have at least those 3 elements.

[leaguer of one]

 

We've been at this since kotor.

[katokires]

In Street Fighter I can play an offensive or defensive character, does it count? Again, ridiculous definition that define nothing.

[leaguer of one]

In Street Fighter I can play an offensive or defensive character, does it count? Again, ridiculous definition that define nothing.

Nope. You don't build that character or develop their emotions and character.

[katokires]

Nope. You don't build that character or develop their emotions and character.

Like in Inquisition. Thanks for the answer, exactly what I was looking for.

[leaguer of one]

Like in Inquisition. Thanks for the answer, exactly what I was looking for.

Then your playing DAI wrong. I did both with ease.

[Cyonan]

I think what we can all take away from these threads is that XCOM is the god king of games which defies your primitive genre rules.

 

Really though, it's become amusing to play the "How many different definitions of RPG can I make XCOM fit into?" game today.

[leaguer of one]

I think what we can all take away from these threads is that XCOM is the god king of games which defies your primitive genre rules.

 

Really though, it's become amusing to play the "How many different definitions of RPG can I make XCOM fit into?" game today.

We need to make a Mass effect game like Xcom.

 

I'll give my one of my kidneys to BW if they make it so.

[Icy Magebane]

The way I see it, an RPG is defined by a setting that allows for interaction with NPCs, the buying and selling of items, exploration of the world, and the ability to build the main character(s) in different ways.  Dialogue choices are not necessary, as most JRPGs that I've played do not give the player the ability to choose what they want to say... when they do, the responses usually have little variety and often lead to the same place.  Those games are still RPGs, IMO, even if the player has no freedom in expressing what kind of "role" they wish to play... even if it's heavily scripted, you are still playing out a "role."  So for me, as long as several of the main RPG characteristics are the focus of the game, then the game is an RPG.

 

Also, to touch upon something mentioned in the OP, being linear doesn't detract from a game's RPG status as far as I'm concerned... as I said, JRPGs are usually heavily scripted, but they still allow for character customization, exploration, interaction with the world, etc... allowing the player to take the story in different directions is rarely their goal.  Most of the time, these games are attempting to tell a rather specific story ("telling a story," is an aspect that I neglected to mention, but actually one of the most important...) that would likely suffer in quality if the player is given too much freedom to alter events... since I've played so many linear RPGs in the past, I don't really see the ability to choose dialogue options and explore different paths in the plot as essential elements.

 

So, to answer the question... yes, I think DA:I is an RPG.  It fits all of my criteria, at least...

[ThreeF]

Once you start listing JRPG all these definitions will go out of window very very fast.

[wolfhowwl]

It has an inventory so yes.

[SofaJockey]

There are golfing games where I can wear different jumpers...

[leaguer of one]

Once you start listing JRPG all these definitions will go out of window very very fast.

Except you can build your characters stats and gear.

[leaguer of one]

It has an inventory so yes.

So does gta and metal gear.

[ThreeF]

Except you can build your characters stats and gear.

Fire Emblem has random stats growth at level up.

[Dobby]

I don't know, is CoD an RPG?

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Fire Emblem has random stats growth at level up.

 

Yet you still have complete control over your character's appearance, class, a couple of dialogue options as well as an endgame option and who to marry. At least that's the case in Awakening.

[leaguer of one]

Fire Emblem has random stats growth at level up.

But it has Items that  that up stats and it still heavily gear based.

[leaguer of one]

I don't know, is CoD an RPG?

[phantomrachie]

The way I see it, an RPG is defined by a setting that allows for interaction with NPCs, the buying and selling of items, exploration of the world, and the ability to build the main character(s) in different ways.  Dialogue choices are not necessary, as most JRPGs that I've played do not give the player the ability to choose what they want to say... when they do, the responses usually have little variety and often lead to the same place.  Those games are still RPGs, IMO, even if the player has no freedom in expressing what kind of "role" they wish to play... even if it's heavily scripted, you are still playing out a "role."  So for me, as long as several of the main RPG characteristics are the focus of the game, then the game is an RPG.

 

 

 

All of the JRPGs I've played give you some choice every so often, like in FFX when Tidus could tell Lulu that he was more interested in women like her than Yuna.

 

That is one of like 4 times where you can choose dialogue but it is enough to help me with my definition. 

 

Even if that dialogue choice doesn't matter in terms of the game, Yuna & Tidus kiss in a lake regardless of what you say, it's still a dialogue choice, even if it's only a small one.

 

Though I do get where you are coming from.

[ThreeF]

Yet you still have complete control over your character's appearance, class, a couple of dialogue options as well as an endgame option and who to marry. At least that's the case in Awakening.

but very little control over stat growth, which was my point.

 

FF: 4 Children of light has no story branching (as far as I remember).

 

In Vagrant Story you hold your control pad for dear life and hope to survive, while Ashley doesn't get XP for kills, there is no real level up system and the story has no branching.

 

 

But it has Items that  that up stats and it still heavily gear based.

Not the same as actually appointing points and only Awakening has skills. I wouldn't call it heavily gear based because option are limited, you don't have that much gear nor it affects much.

 

Tactic Ogre also has no stat control in its original sense, you can only modify things somewhat by changing class and gear.

[Captain Wiseass]

No TRUE Scotsman washes his kilt on a Friday!

[Nimlowyn]

"JRPGs" (back in the day we just called them "RPGs") are fundamentally different in their approach to player characters. Even games like Suikoden and Chrono Trigger, who had silent protagonists, didn't give dialogue options to the player (they may have once or twice, but not in a dedicated sense...sorry it's been a long time!). Back when I was playing Japanese RPGs in the 90s and early 2000s, they were understood to be RPGs. I think these days that is a bit controversial, at least in some circles. "RPG" has become quite the nebulous concept. I wonder if it's time for an update. 

 

In any event, as it stands now, I would say: an RPG is a type of game that comes in a variety of flavors, but basically consists of a narrative focus oriented around menu based combat. 

 

Edited for clarity. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

 

We've been at this since kotor.

 

Pretty sure the first computer RPGs (Baldur's Gate and such, hell even before the likes of Wizardry and Wasteland) were also accused of not being True RPGstm like the tabletops because computers are Satan or something.

 

War never changes, and so do angry nerds.