125 réponses à ce sujet

[99DP1982]

Meaningful? Being forced to pick a particular attribute in order to choose abilities that had to be taken at a specific level and in a specific order is meaningful?

 

DAO is good at many things. Unfortunately one of the things it's really good at is the illusion of choice when it comes to attributes.

Did you honestly spend your points in anything other than the main stats and the occasional point in constitution? 

 

By all means do that, but claiming that DAO is a better game for allowing your warrior to take magic and consequently hit like a wet noodle with no access to abilities or gear is pretty funny.

 

Also after level 12 or so, stat allocation becomes more of a chore on levelup.

 

"OOOh that extra 3 points of strength on top of my already existing 131 points! That extra ability I'll never use!!! yay!!"

 

At least DAI doesn't reach that point of saturation until relatively late in the game when you're out of ability slots (unless you take a REALLY inefficient build with no upgrades), and even then the useless abilities (til you change your spec and try a new one since you actually CAN) you pick up are offset by access to more passives that actually have a tangible impact on gameplay.

 

BUT IT GIVES YOU AN OPTION. your damage output is based on the skill set and attribute points, not on weapon DPS metrics. this is the critical difference. There is also an array of non-combat skills, which are completely cut off from the later iterations of the game. this is a shared featrue among MMO games.

 

you are forgetting that it is not about stating what is better and what is not, it is about genre placement and these differences is what places on the axis between action RPG and MMORPG, while DA:O is on the axis near the classic RPG design due to the machanics, etc.

[Al Foley]

BUT IT GIVES YOU AN OPTION. your damage output is based on the skill set and attribute points, not on weapon DPS metrics. this is the critical difference. There is also an array of non-combat skills, which are completely cut off from the later iterations of the game. this is a shared featrue among MMO games.

 

you are forgetting that it is not about stating what is better and what is not, it is about genre placement and these differences is what places on the axis between action RPG and MMORPG, while DA:O is on the axis near the classic RPG design due to the machanics, etc.

I don't know should it not be a combination of the two?  Like in DA I...and for that matter in DA O.  Where both your skill and the power of your weapons effect how much damage you can do and how effectively you do the damage? For instance if I were bad with a gun I could shoot you fifty times, and you would be dead.  If I were good and skilled with a gun I could shoot you once and kill you.  You are just as dead, and in some point the gun is just as effective, just, I am better at it.  

 

The one thing where this always falls apart is...DA I is lacking the single defining feature of the MMO.  

[Lebanese Dude]

BUT IT GIVES YOU AN OPTION. your damage output is based on the skill set and attribute points, not on weapon DPS metrics. this is the critical difference. There is also an array of non-combat skills, which are completely cut off from the later iterations of the game. this is a shared featrue among MMO games.

 

you are forgetting that it is not about stating what is better and what is not, it is about genre placement and these differences is what places on the axis between action RPG and MMORPG, while DA:O is on the axis near the classic RPG design due to the machanics, etc.

 

There is no practical difference.

 

Just like DAI's output is dependent on weapon, DAO's output is dependent on your main stat. In either case, you're forced to take a particular route.

 

In DAO gear is almost entirely irrelevant except for cosmetics beyond the first few levels, and crafting was non-existent.

 

DAI strikes a balance between innate and crafted/equipped stats, in order to allow you MUCH greater freedom in customization while expanding the amount of secondary stats available. That's where they differ.

 

Crafting only overshadows innate stats late in the game when crafting becomes more potent. 

Considering that it's significantly more "realistic" for gear to have an actual impact on your output as opposed to it being all on your character, I find DAI's approach to be by far the superior of the two. That's just me though.

 

 

Fun Fact: MMOs are notorious for having shitty crafted gear compared to drops. 

[AlanC9]

2) provide examples when making such claims.... i will refer to fallout as you mentioned it. Which Fallout game and which attributes you can't modify?!

He said "couldn't modify much." In FO1 and 2, at least, you could only raise an attribute by a single point with a perk. (Plus surgery to raise some stats by an additional point.) Don't know about the later games; haven't played them.

[AlanC9]

you are forgetting that it is not about stating what is better and what is not, it is about genre placement and these differences is what places on the axis between action RPG and MMORPG, while DA:O is on the axis near the classic RPG design due to the machanics, etc.

I'm having trouble visualizing this axis. Is it ARPG on one side, MMORPG on the far side, and "classic RPG" in the middle?

[Cyonan]

He said "couldn't modify much." In FO1 and 2, at least, you could only raise an attribute by a single point with a perk. (Plus surgery to raise some stats by an additional point.) Don't know about the later games; haven't played them.

 

The later games use the same GURPs system which doesn't allow for much modification outside of that same one perk. New Vegas offers implants that require fairly good Endurance to get multiple stats boosted, and Fallout 3 has 1 bobblehead in the world for each stat you can find which will give you +1 to that stat.

 

Fallout 3 also had the problem introduced with the Broken Steel DLC of the Almost PERFECT perk, which sets all your stats to 9 out of the max 10. I actually created a perfect character in that game which had 10 in every stat and 100 in every skill by intentionally holding off on the bobbleheads until I got that perk. Honestly, that perk just makes stats irrelevant to the game.

 

For the most part, the stats are still largely "set and forget" after you're done character creation in the later games.

[Lebanese Dude]

1) i guess by open world you refer to the game like Skyrim, so it does not really change my opinion.

 

2) provide examples when making such claims.... i will refer to fallout as you mentioned it. Which Fallout game and which attributes you can't modify?!

 

3) there is a difference in randomly generated loot and randomly placed loot dependent on encounter difficulty level ...

 

4) what you call robust I call poorly designed for single player game. But to me the best crafting was the one from BG2 when it came to weapons and armors and NWN when it came to supplementary items, like potions, wands, traps, etc.

 

5) slapping 100million HP on the same creature type is not a good progression system, an enemy with different skill set, different behavior, better gear and higher array of skills, perhaps a different composition of enemies or even a whole new set of enemies, that's how you create a sense progression.

 

6) How is it irrelevant? this is exactly the feature of MMO, gold is basically irrelevant unless you are buying crafting materials.

 

Oh I missed this.

 

1) You're equating Skyrim with an MMO now? This is wholly unfair.

 

2) Is this a thesis or something? The sources are all around you. Many traditional games did not offer the ability to change or alter stats upon character creation.  Fallout, an RPG, uses a S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system (for Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, and Luck). It offers very limited modification of attributes at the start of the game and you can later modify them only with limited expenditure of on-level perks as well as one-time surgical implants. Gear provided the bulk of defense and offensive capability.

 

3) No... no there isn't. All RPGs drop gear randomly off mobs. All RPGs have altered loot tables depending on unit rank. 

 

4) Opinion. Again, crafting is irrelevant to the discussion of MMOs.

 

5) Really? Do you honestly want a scripted battle for every mook you face? It already exists to an extent in DAI, but you have to play on tougher difficulties. Bosses and dragons in DA fill that purpose as well, and their HP bloat is justified. 

 

6) All RPGs have economies. This point is irrelevant.

 

Look I don't know what you're trying to prove here. DAI is not an MMO in any shape or form. It may share some characteristics with them, just as it does with other games from Baldur's Gate to Skyrim, but it is not an MMO.

 

DAI is a single-player squad-based narrative-focused role-playing game with elements of exploration.

 

I'm done arguing the obvious. Cya around.

[AlanC9]

3) No... no there isn't. All RPGs drop gear randomly off mobs. All RPGs have altered loot tables depending on unit rank.

Well, except ME2.

 

I can think of quite a few games where the randomized loot is irrelevant, though, since everything that's actually useful is pre-placed and unlevelled.

[Lebanese Dude]

Well, except ME2.

 

I can think of quite a few games where the randomized loot is irrelevant, though, since everything that's actually useful is pre-placed and unlevelled.

 

True, although did ME2 even have gear? It's entirely cosmetic (except for weapons) if I remember correctly.

[CronoDragoon]

True, although did ME2 even have gear? It's entirely cosmetic (except for weapons) if I remember correctly.

 

The armor did have different stat bonuses depending on what it was.

[AlanC9]

Right. You could trade a helmet that gave +5% health for a visor that gave +10% headshot damage, for instance, or swap all the individual pieces out for a single suit. Shepard only, though. Companion outfits were purely cosmetic in ME2, unlike ME3

[Shechinah]

(to AlanC9) Garrus' alternative neon outfit gave him a +5% party bonus.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Repetitive Painful Grind so yes RPG.

 

[Farangbaa]

Fun Fact: MMOs are notorious for having shitty crafted gear compared to drops.

Except those *@&*!#^!(&*@#(%@!#(*^@!!@(&*# Asian MMOs where you literally have to gather resources for days to get a few special proc resource, which you can then use to try and craft a special proc version of a weapon.

Or wait no, I mean, to craft 1/5 of the weapon.

@&*!@#(&*^!@#&(*




But, botting is mostly legal, or so I've heard.

Oh.. and 12 hour bossfights, with 0,01% drop chances.

But I digress

[leaguer of one]

let me check that...

 

wait...

 

stats and levels are actually meaningful.

 

I believe that crafting was a bit different, it had supplementary role and not a core role

 

It did not have open spaces with respawning level gating enemies.

 

Gold was useful and loot generation was much better, even with unique set items hunting.

 

the only thing it shared was the limited types of enemies which scaled only in damage and hp and the fact that you could hardly avoid combat...

Stats are just a form of translation. It just a way for the the player to interact with the games world, characters, and pc's. It can be replaced by anything. There even rpgs with stats replaced by a card game.

[Auztin]

Except those *@&*!#^!(&*@#(%@!#(*^@!!@(&*# Asian MMOs where you literally have to gather resources for days to get a few special proc resource, which you can then use to try and craft a special proc version of a weapon.Or wait no, I mean, to craft 1/5 of the weapon.@&*!@#(&*^!@#&(*But, botting is mostly legal, or so I've heard.Oh.. and 12 hour bossfights, with 0,01% drop chances.But I digress

Botting is illegal. If you are caught, your account wither be banned or warned.If you persist after a warning then you would be banned.Happens on FFXIV:ARR a lot on there.

[Rannik]

"does it have story driven gameplay" and "is it immersive"?

 
You just described almost every single non-sports/simu AAA game these days.
 
Needs more "cinematic" for the bingo though.
 

Thing is, with advancing graphics and engines, wouldn't two lines of foes on opposites side of the screen taking turns hitting each other look and feel totally ridiculous? 

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooo.

 

Advances in graphics and aesthetics are two completely different things, that's why for lots of people something like Game of Thrones or Journey looks much better than Crysis 3 even though the latter is millennia ahead of the former technology-wise. That's also why Wind Waker looks OK more than a decade after its release while other games released around the same date are just painful to look at.

 

You don't have to make "realistic" games, that's pure non-sense, and even if you tried we are decades away from simulating something that looks (and most importantly, behaves) like reality anyway.

 

Botting is illegal. If you are caught, your account wither be banned or warned.If you persist after a warning then you would be banned.Happens on FFXIV:ARR a lot on there.

FFXIV is an MMO and it's made by a an asian company but I wouldn't call it an "Asian MMO".

That term is mostly used for low quality Korean F2P garbage.

[Nimlowyn]

 
 

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooo.

 

Advances in graphics and aesthetics are two completely different things, that's why for lots of people something like Game of Thrones or Journey looks much better than Crysis 3 even though the latter is millennia ahead of the former technology-wise. That's also why Wind Waker looks OK more than a decade after its release while other games released around the same date are just painful to look at.

 

You don't have to make "realistic" games, that's pure non-sense, and even if you tried we are decades away from simulating something that looks (and most importantly, behaves) like reality anyway.

 

You're not wrong (though I'm a bit confused, I don't think I ever mentioned aesthetics, but anyway). I think, however, you're applying this (way) more broadly than intended, and missing my point (see below). I was referring specifically to Final Fantasy and the direction the series was going in, which was toward more "realistic" gameplay and graphics. Naturally, different games will have different styles. It was never my intention to imply that "realistic" games were the only games to make. I don't expect Game Dev Story to behave like Dragon Age. 

 

The point was to illustrate how the evolution of gaming will (or can, perhaps is the better word) impact design choice. Final Fantasy was a specific example with specific parameters. 

 

Edited for clarity.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Oh I missed this.

 

1) You're equating Skyrim with an MMO now? This is wholly unfair.

 

2) Is this a thesis or something? The sources are all around you. Many traditional games did not offer the ability to change or alter stats upon character creation.  Fallout, an RPG, uses a S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system (for Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, and Luck). It offers very limited modification of attributes at the start of the game and you can later modify them only with limited expenditure of on-level perks as well as one-time surgical implants. Gear provided the bulk of defense and offensive capability.

 

3) No... no there isn't. All RPGs drop gear randomly off mobs. All RPGs have altered loot tables depending on unit rank. 

 

4) Opinion. Again, crafting is irrelevant to the discussion of MMOs.

 

5) Really? Do you honestly want a scripted battle for every mook you face? It already exists to an extent in DAI, but you have to play on tougher difficulties. Bosses and dragons in DA fill that purpose as well, and their HP bloat is justified. 

 

6) All RPGs have economies. This point is irrelevant.

 

Look I don't know what you're trying to prove here. DAI is not an MMO in any shape or form. It may share some characteristics with them, just as it does with other games from Baldur's Gate to Skyrim, but it is not an MMO.

 

DAI is a single-player squad-based narrative-focused role-playing game with elements of exploration.

 

I'm done arguing the obvious. Cya around.

 

People keep saying "This is an MMO, not an RPG", but they seem to be forgetting what an MMO is. more correctly MMORPG. You are definitely playing a role, therefore RPG. Of course single player RPGs are going to have features in common with a multi player RPG. The RPG elements to be exact.

[Al Foley]

People keep saying "This is an MMO, not an RPG", but they seem to be forgetting what an MMO is. more correctly MMORPG. You are definitely playing a role, therefore RPG. Of course single player RPGs are going to have features in common with a multi player RPG. The RPG elements to be exact.

I find it funny.  DAI differs from MMOs in two significant ways.  It is missing the second M, and the O.  It is not multiplayer, and its not online.  In its Story mode.  So, remove thsoe two and you are just left with MRPG

[Farangbaa]

Botting is illegal. If you are caught, your account wither be banned or warned.If you persist after a warning then you would be banned.Happens on FFXIV:ARR a lot on there.

Its legal on Asian servers, as far as I am aware.

I could be wrong here though, it's been years since I played an MMO and have never on Asian servers (I don't speak nor read any Asian languages, so yeah ). BUt from what I've been told botting is not an issue on Asian servers.

[Bizantura]

I care not which label is given to a game as long as I like to play it.  Usually those games are labeled RPG, but if it where labeled "fluke of a game" and I liked it it would make no difference and still play it.

[theluc76]

DAI is not a RPG, never was

[AlanC9]

DAI is not a RPG, never was

Isn't there supposed to be some sort of argument to go along with this?

[Farangbaa]

Isn't there supposed to be some sort of argument to go along with this?

Don't be ridiculous, foolish statements never do.