65 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

So far, I've never seen Flemeth do anything but either be conveniently helpful or irritatingly cryptic.

 

Except for her little tantrum in DAI. "SHE WAS BETRAYED AS I WAS BETRAYED, AS THE WORLD WAS BETRAYED"

 

Helpful? Cryptic?

[SwobyJ]

If they managed to make a game with Flemeth or Solas as an antagonist, they might have a story as good as Origins on their hands.

 

When I first played Origins I didn't pay TONS of attention to the backstory or question that my PC Warden was the Good Guy doing the Right Thing, even when I was definitely doing Kinda Rotten Things like putting a kinslaying jerk on the throne of Orzammar. Had zero qualms about killing Loghain. 

 

But I've done a total 180 about Loghain. You really can flip the whole Origins story around, follow it from his point of view & have everything he does *make sense*. And all of a sudden instead of the story of a young hero rising to power, you have a really moving tragedy on your hands. His story is interesting in its own right & also stands as a really chilling counterpoint to the cheery upward trajectory of the PC.

 

It's a cliche at this point that every villain is the hero of his own story, but I can't think of many instances where I've seen it done better. The more I think about it, the more I think that Origins is about Loghain & Maric as much as it's about the Wardens. 

 

All of which is to say: Flemeth is awesome and Solas is... well, I never liked him much, but he's on the right track to being a good antagonist: powerful and desperate, with just enough righteousness to collect a following. Antagonists that you can like and care about & still have to oppose make for good conflict. 

 

I'm joining him. lol

 

*for the record, I'd also join Flemeth*

 

*I'm just a suckup for these gods I guess*

[TK514]

Solas isn't evil, the whole point is that what he's doing is all in shades of gray..

 

I thought the whole point was that he was incompetent and required others to clean up his mistakes.

[SwobyJ]

I thought the whole point was that he was incompetent and required others to clean up his mistakes.

 

Hey now, you try upending a whole world system!

[KainD]

With that I can agree. But I'm not like that... usually... I hate Vivienne but I wouldn't call her evil, same for Blackwall and Sten.

Why not?

[KainD]

If I've learnt one thing in this life, and this is something that BioWare clearly understand as well -- is that morals, "good/evil" etc, are subjective things, and exist only in the minds of people.

Judging by the plot of their games Bioware does not understand that in the slightest, or they just go out of their way to hide it.

[Aren]

If I've learnt one thing in this life, and this is something that BioWare clearly understand as well -- is that morals, "good/evil" etc, are subjective things, and exist only in the minds of people.

 

 

Yeah Corypheus is a good guy that is why Solas gave to Him the Orb

Some characters of the Franchise are definetly Good without any little shadow or  any sin of grey (i'm looking at you Brother Martyr Burkel).

[KainD]

Can you please elaborate?
Just so I can see where you're coming from..

The plot always has the player fight against what is considered evil with no alternatives, without the possibility to even verbally state otherwise if there is no other way around it.

Just one example out of a million - the envy demon showed me how it would run the Inquisition, which is how I would run it if I had a choice. Alright sometimes that's fine, it might not sit well with the current plot, but the biggest problem for me was that I could not verbally agree with the demon, and say for example that one day that is what the Inquisition will be once Cory is done. Instead I could only tell the demon how it is wrong and I would never do something like that.

[KainD]

I see what you mean.

Where the player character is concerned, it is somewhat linear. But I think it would've been too hard to implement, and all of that jazz.

I was referring to the characters/companions, when I stated that.

Nope not even companion characters. There is not a single companion in Inquisition that is not a self-righteous hypocrite / arguable goody two shoes, not a single advisor as well.

[Aren]

Except for her little tantrum in DAI. "SHE WAS BETRAYED AS I WAS BETRAYED, AS THE WORLD WAS BETRAYED"

 

Helpful? Cryptic?

Nah during that scene Flemeth was just a whining like Alistair  "the world was betrayed, ah and Duncan is dead sigh"  Solas please.......

caricare immagini

[Lilithor]

Why not?

My morals are very different from my desires.
Sometimes what I love the most is what is evil, and I like it, I like feeling evil and doing what I am not supposed to, the joy of breaking the rules. But not always. Sometimes in Thedas I hate a demon, sometimes I love. One of the characters I imagine in Thedas is a human/noble Champion/Reaver/SpiritWarrior that merged with a desire demon, she is kind of a vampire, but no one knows, most people just love her for being a fierce warrior in the battlefield protecting the good people of Thedas but in private she spends her time endulging all kinds of pleasure which includes drinking the blood of her lovers, sometimes killing them. I'd say this character is evil in that she cares for nothing but her pleasure and she takes advantage of the fact that people believe she is a hero, but who cares? I love her.
 

The plot always has the player fight against what is considered evil with no alternatives, without the possibility to even verbally state otherwise if there is no other way around it.

Just one example out of a million - the envy demon showed me how it would run the Inquisition, which is how I would run it if I had a choice. Alright sometimes that's fine, it might not sit well with the current plot, but the biggest problem for me was that I could not verbally agree with the demon, and say for example that one day that is what the Inquisition will be once Cory is done. Instead I could only tell the demon how it is wrong and I would never do something like that.

Miss that too. But I agree with you both, when it comes to the PLAYER character, Bioware is not good at offering gray choices, or evil choices but it was a lot better in Origins and a bit better in DA2. But when it comes to companions and other characters I see them doing better job, like, a lot better.

[Lilithor]

Nope not even companion characters. There is not a single companion in Inquisition that is not a self-righteous hypocrite / arguable goody two shoes, not a single advisor as well.

Well, Inquisition is by far the worst but aside from companions we have Briala/Celene/Gaspard, Justinia (at least for me, following Leliana quests in the end Justinia was evil and a lot of people see her as good, so I guess it counts), Lord Seeker, Calpernia, and there is a lot more people that some think evil and some think good.

[KainD]

My morals are very different from my desires.
Sometimes what I love the most is what is evil, and I like it, I like feeling evil and doing what I am not supposed to, the joy of breaking the rules..

That sounds very confusing to me. Where is the joy in braking your own rules?

[KainD]

Well, Inquisition is by far the worst but aside from companions we have Briala/Celene/Gaspard, Justinia (at least for me, following Leliana quests in the end Justinia was evil and a lot of people see her as good, so I guess it counts), Lord Seeker, Calpernia, and there is a lot more people that some think evil and some think good.

You can consider anything you like. I for one do not consider Cory to be evil. But what matters is whether you can express it.

[Personette]

Well, Inquisition is by far the worst but aside from companions we have Briala/Celene/Gaspard, Justinia (at least for me, following Leliana quests in the end Justinia was evil and a lot of people see her as good, so I guess it counts), Lord Seeker, Calpernia, and there is a lot more people that some think evil and some think good.

 

The games are pretty good at pointing out that repellent individuals with fairly ruthless methods can actually do a lot of good, if that's their goal. The Bhelen/Harrowmont choice was the prototype, here: Bhelen is absolutely awful, kills his whole family to take the throne, makes you feel slimy every time you talk to him, but he's a much better king than Harrowmont. 

 

Celene & Justinia fit the same mold. They're reformers & aim to do lasting good--and will cut anyone who gets in their way. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Being a villain is different than being "evil".  The protagonist can be evil - look at Frank Underwood, Dexter and Walter White (not at all interested in entertaining the notion that these characters are not predominantly "evil").

 

When someone says: Solas will be the villain.  It is simply to say that they will be the opposing force (opposite the player) in an upcoming game.  Whether that's true or not - is of course speculation (and I pray it isn't)

 

In fantasy - the term 'evil' often holds an absolute (while in our world it is - as far as humans can be concerned - an abstract).  Evil beings in fantasy typically embody traditionally evil characteristics (see Corypheus). 

 

To this end, I am not sure I would call either of them (Solas or Flemeth) "evil". 

 

They have characteristics of self-obsessed polytheistic gods. Their egos are everything and they do not regard mortals as their peers (as is the case with Solas' deception through the entire game).  This will be simply megalomania if it turns out they're just "really powerful mortals" and not "gods".  By gods, I would suggest beings - no matter how mortal in appearance - that do not share a genesis with the mortals of Thedas. 

 

The reality is - that because of either megalomania or a disparate genesis - they are anathema to mortals (just like spirits/demons).  Their interests put mortals in a constant state of disregard.  This is, by it's nature, not evil (and is why a real God that disregarded mortals would not be so).  We have no indication that the universe was made for the specific condition of catering to the wants/needs of mortals.  So inconveniencing mortals - no matter how egregiously - does not bend or break the laws of the universe in which Thedas is in (or, is not an act of "evil").

 

However, since it will likely be guaranteed that you will be a mortal in any upcoming games - any actions of Solas or Flemeth - use you in the same way that we use animals.  If you are fine with that - then you may serve them as you see fit - chances are, Bioware would put you in the role of favorite pet (which they would call something suitable like: "Herald of Andraste" perhaps).  If you - as I would suspect many BSN forumites do - hold human (or in Thedas' situation mortals) in high regard - then the schemes of these "gods" are in opposition to your own.

 

I would say that Solas has very strong - traditionally evil - qualities. He strikes me very much an an "Emperor Palpatine" type (again, not interested in arguing how anyone things Palpatine wasn't evil).  He's gregarious - he's friendly - and until he decides to fold the Fade and Thedas into a **** sandwich - people will be predisposed to liking him. 

 

And I do agree with KaiserShep.  I actually do not believe - aside from being boorishly obtuse and bitter - I don't think Flemeth was particularly evil.

[rin_ritchie]

I like Sola's. Many go on about how much of an arrogant jerk he is, but if you were a philosophical personality with so Mich knowledge and understanding but were surrounded with willfully ignorant fools, you'd get aggravated too lol

[Lilithor]

That sounds very confusing to me. Where is the joy in braking your own rules?

Just feel good doind what is morally wrong or harmful to others even when there is no benefit except my own pleasure. I don't think I can further explain it without going all dr. Freud.
 

You can consider anything you like. I for one do not consider Cory to be evil. But what matters is whether you can express it.

I'm not with this Tevinter **** but the part of going to the Fade and taking the throne of the Maker is indeed amazing and I would love helping him succeed, IF he quit his Tevinter bullshit. But since I don't think he would I would just kill him and do the same but MY WAY. I would love let demons loose, some more than the others. I would probably try to turn myself into some kind of superior entity fusing different kinds of elite demons and spirits with me to become something complete with desire, purpose, rage, wisdom, faith, pride and everything else making me the ultimate being.

[Quantius]

What value does the death of a thousand ants hold for a man? What value does the death of a thousand men hold for a god?

 

What we would see as great injustice is a blip, a momentary fleck of existence, soon to be replaced by the next. It is ego-centric to view Solas' actions from the point of view of a mortal.

[Allyboo22]

You know what after reading all the stuff on solas makes me mad please have dlc where he comes back or something I don't even want to finish the game now I mad

[KainD]

Just feel good doind what is morally wrong or harmful to others even when there is no benefit except my own pleasure. I don't think I can further explain it without going all dr. Freud.

 

No, but you said it's YOUR morals.

My morals are very different from my desires.

 

Braking your own morals sucks. It doesn't matter what other people consider wrong, what matters is what you personally feel about it.

[Lilithor]

No, but you said it's YOUR morals.

 

Braking your own morals sucks. It doesn't matter what other people consider wrong, what matters is what you personally feel about it.

But they are my morals, I have pleasure in that xD
There are lots of joys, one of them is guilty, in which I too take pleasure. I'm complex. I'm kind of like a demon, I feed from emotions like lust, fear, rage, hatred, joy, sadness, and so on. Everything goes, either good or bad.