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[Red Panda]

Well, after experiencing the wonders and joy that is the character development of Dorian Pavus. He seems to be such a wonderful and unique fellow with a personality as flamboyant as his mustache. But one has to wonder, is his personality indeed a result of demonic influence?

 

Let's consider his fellow countrymen. They live under a mageocracy and have to deal with very magey things, fade things. And with the fade, there are spirits. So it stands to reason that, Dorian, being a member of a very well established family has a good understanding of the extent of demonic interaction in Tevinter. The highest caste of citizens use and threaten one another with blood magic, suggesting the amount of demonic interaction is incredibly high. This point is further driven home by Dorian's father having tried to change and warp our good Dorian's mind with the evilest evil of evil evils: blood magic. His father is repentant about it later, but a wrong was still attempted, even if remorse was shown.

 

But let us move on to the next issue, the Venatori, these Tevinter cultists that love to be best buddies with demons and blood magics and other evil stuff as they are the bad guys. This makes sense. They're evil. As Tevinter is thoroughly represented as evil most of the time, it seems that Dorian stands as a voice of reason in the tide of typical Tevinter representation. They go around doing these evil things like overwhelming the chargers and brainwashing people and burning Denerim. Of course, this has to have a drastic effect on Dorian, who's trying to be rational with his countrymen being evil fellows with a lack of virtues in favor of the vices of destroying order in Thedas.

 

What else is from Tevinter? Of course, it's the main villain, Corypheus, of the game, who is so skillfully weaved into the tapestry of evil in the game that it practically screams that Tevinter is potentially not winning any awards and has not been winning any awards in humanitarianism.

 

I'm not sure exactly what this means for Dorian however. I may be wrong according to how the writers wanted to express it, but it seems with all the crazy stuff going on and how bad and unethical Tevinter can be, Dorian's resultant rejection of it suggests that he is completely entirely sane and rational, as well as trying to change it (Tevinter, Thedas, everything pretty much) for the better and every aspect of his character reflects this. Essentially, Dorian is the example of a good and virtuous Tevinter mage, necromancer spec not included in this discussion. The only people affected by the so called "demonic influence" are pretty much mainstream Tevinter.

 

Would I be right in saying that Dorian is seemingly the only Tevinter person (other than Krem) who's both sane, reasonable, and ethical as well as being one of the best written and enjoyable characters in the game?

 

I know it's an opinion possibly, but I guess that's the point of discussion.

[TheJediSaint]

I think his personality is the result of David Gaider wanting to write a "gay Tony Stark".  I'm okay with that.

[leaguer of one]

No. It just means most of the people from teventor we meet are asses.

[Red Panda]

No. It just means most of the people from teventor we meet are asses.

But can those people from Tevinter be considered to be in control of their nature? Or is the blood magic oriented upper class demonically influenced to be evil, and as such Dorian stands as a paragon against this lack of ethics?

[KaiserShep]

It seems like Tevinter's politics gives people who want more power little choice, since the "ethical" mages probably have less of an edge against those that hone their talents to enthrall the minds of others and summon waves of demons to do their fighting for them. Hard to stay ahead when your opponent can potentially have a swarm of shades drag you out of your bed at night.

[ThreeF]

 Dorian is not the only one who rejects (some of) the unethical practices in Tevinter, there are many others, you just don't get to meet them.

 

 

But can those people from Tevinter be considered to be in control of their nature? Or is the blood magic oriented upper class demonically influenced to be evil, and as such Dorian stands as a paragon against this lack of ethics?

Can people in general be considered to be in control of their nature? The power struggle of Orlais is no less unethical and decadent, than that of Tevinter, it's just less "magical"

[Statare]

Besides Dorian and Krem there's also Maevaris, from the comics, who does not seem stereotypically Tevinter Evil. There was also Alexius' son, Felix, who Dorian said was nice. But he dead.

 

Also, the Venatori are comprised of some Magisters and Altus, but the foot soldiers are mostly slaves. So, largely what we fight are brainwashed slaves and their masters. Pretty sad really.

 

I think there are more Tevinter than we seek who are rational and sane, but really, Europeans in our world and a lot of other cultures committed genocide and horrific actions on a regular basis, no blood magic or demonic influence required. Tevinter seems to be a place of fierce patriarchal mindsets, elitist notions, imperial tendencies, and not to mention the semi-eugenics programs they are hinted to have to trace/maintain magic blood lines. Really, the demonic possibility just makes the crazy go from bad to worse. 

[SwobyJ]

I believe the point of blood magic itself is not that people are mind controlled into doing it, but that they decide to do it of their free will, eventually/at some point/potentially willingly chaining themselves to demons in the process.

 

Tevinter, so far, is supposed to be adept enough at the workings of demons to not be influenced by them, but instead dominate them/work around them. They train to be as powerful mages as possible, that they could stop demons if they present a threat, unlike the relatively coddled Circle mages.

 

I don't think Dorian has anything special going on other than:

1)His connection to time magic

2)His wish to return Tevinter to prominence again, except this time having learned lessons and purified itself (so to speak)

3)His outcast characteristic

 

He may have been under threat of a demonic-ish influence (aka blood magic), but as far as we know, it didn't happen.

 

He indeed is a 'paragon', when it comes to his nation.

 

However, I haven't completed all of Dorian's story myself (I'll do his quest, but not romance).

 

I agree with Statare. There doesn't need to be demonic influence for things to happen. Though with Tevinter, those tools being available does make Tevinter into a certain kind of society that we won't consider common IRL. It is a society that may not employ things like, say, mind domination all the time - but having it available can highlight the worse aspects of people.

 

In Tevinter, they subject others to clearly real blood magic, bringing death and destruction.

In the Chantry, they convince others to follow and commit actions in the name of a Maker that may not even exist.

 

I'm sure a game in Tevinter would highlight how at least in Tevinter, people most of the time know what they're getting, for better or worse, so when improvement can/does come, it can potentially surpass the Chantry. *insert corrupted Inquisition after the Inner Circle disbands lol*

 

~~~

 

I suppose there could be a reveal about Tevinter that when push comes to shove, elite magisters could commit blood magic mind control on other magisters to commit blood magic, etc. But I don't think Dorian is part of that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wait, Dorian is ethical? The same Dorian who sees nothing wrong with slavery? 

[SwobyJ]

Wait, Dorian is ethical? The same Dorian who sees nothing wrong with slavery? 

 

He is an ethical person, yes. This doesn't mean he's a good person. That's not what ethics is about. Ethics is about trying to figure out what makes a good person.

 

He's still on that journey. But he's ethical, because he's trying.

[fizzypop]

I think his personality is the result of David Gaider wanting to write a "gay Tony Stark".  I'm okay with that.

BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER! DING DING DING! WINNER!

I mean I agree with you.
 

[Dutch]

Too bad we can't side with his father.

[SwobyJ]

Too bad we can't side with his father.

 

Maybe if we were the Warden.

 

But that's not the Inquisitor RP setup, 'sadly'. 

[Hazegurl]

Wait, Dorian is ethical? The same Dorian who sees nothing wrong with slavery? 

Although I would have loved to call him out more on his slavery vs poor argument. He's spent his entire life used to slavery as an everyday part of life. It's normal for him to consider slavery normal. I'm quite sure that in a few hundred years people will look back on what we consider normal and want to vomit.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He is an ethical person, yes. This doesn't mean he's a good person. That's not what ethics is about. Ethics is about trying to figure out what makes a good person.

 

He's still on that journey. But he's ethical, because he's trying.

No, ethics are a set of well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do. 

 

He sees nothing wrong with it, saying they are no different than the poor people in Southern Thedas. He is ignoring the fact that slavery robs someone of their freedom, which is ethically wrong. Thus since he supports it, he is not ethical. 

 

 

Although I would have loved to call him out more on his slavery vs poor argument. He's spent his entire life used to slavery as an everyday part of life. It's normal for him to consider slavery normal. I'm quite sure that in a few hundred years people will look back on what we consider normal and want to vomit.

Just because someone considers something normal does not mean said thing is ethical. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Wait, Dorian is ethical? The same Dorian who sees nothing wrong with slavery? 

Yay for hyperbole. He doesn't say there's nothing wrong with slavery. He says that he's only recently considered it and compares it to involuntary segregation and systematic poverty, both of which are also unethical and rob people of their freedom.

[Hazegurl]

 

Just because someone considers something normal does not mean said thing is ethical. 

Ethics is subjective, we form it based on a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is what we consider normal or everyday behavior.  The point is that there could be something you do everyday or don't even think about, or things you even champion, that others would consider unethical. Would it be fair to say that you are an unethical person because of it?

 

Ex: I once heard about a certain culture (forgot the name) where mothers suck their baby son's penis to calm them down. It's perfectly normal to them.  They do it in public too. Yet in our culture (Western, and probably almost everywhere else), those women would be facing jail time for child molestation.

[AshenEndymion]

No, ethics are a set of well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do. 
 
He sees nothing wrong with it, saying they are no different than the poor people in Southern Thedas. He is ignoring the fact that slavery robs someone of their freedom, which is ethically wrong. Thus since he supports it, he is not ethical. 
 
 
Just because someone considers something normal does not mean said thing is ethical.

 
No.  Ethics are rules of conduct set forth by a group or culture.  Basically it's "this group/culture says x is right/wrong."  The ethical values of "right and wrong" vary based on what ethical code one is applying, which is usually based on what group/culture is being looked at.  Looking at people/actions/statements of a group like Tevinter but applying the ethical values of the Qun is just asking for problems when arguing the merits of "is x ethical"...  Especially when one doesn't state that they are applying the ethical values of the Qun to the situation...

 
The above being stated, one can really only say is Dorian not an ethical person in two instances:  Applying the ethical standards of a society that is not Tevinter to the majority of his statements/actions; or applying Tevinter ethical standards to his actions with regards to Arranged Marriages.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yay for hyperbole. He doesn't say there's nothing wrong with slavery. He says that he's only recently considered it and compares it to involuntary segregation and systematic poverty, both of which are also unethical and rob people of their freedom.

I got the impression that Dorian traveling to the southern lands gave him some new perspective on his own country.  In my opinion, whether it be slaves in the north, or slums/alienages in the south, neither side has a lot of room to speak about the ethics when it comes to the treatment of it's poor and destitute, as well as with the elves.

 

I do know that Dorian's views definitely align with those of Ancient Rome in our world, where a person could buy their freedom, and there are plenty of accounts of slaves being well treated by their owners.   Some would have even gotten a more formal education, where they could take on the role of tutor, adviser, merchant on behalf of their master, or other potential opportunities.  

 

Does this mean I think Tevinter is right in this regard, or that I agree with Dorian?  No, and a lot of it is because I come from a modern mindset.  I have never lived in a country where slavery was legal, and I was bred in an age of equal rights.  However, I can put myself into a mindset more aligned with Antiquity in our world, and see where Dorian is coming from.   I can understand even if I personally don't agree.  My dwarf agreed with him, due to her experiences with the dwarven caste system.  My human warrior completely disagreed.  Roleplaying is fun.  

 

On topic: Um, no.  Dorian isn't possessed, nor under demon influence.  He's being himself, and unapologetically at that.  Shocking, I know. 

[SwobyJ]

Dorian never, ever, sees nothing wrong with slavery.

 

However, he also doesn't consider it as bad as others may see it.

 

And he admitted that he didn't think much about it until visiting southern Thedas.

 

That doesn't have to do with him being an ethical person. Its even his attempt to then think about the flaws of both southern and northern Thedosian morality that makes him ethical - as in he is ethically minded in the sense that he wants to do good.

 

I wouldn't personally consider him among the most ethical of Thedas, and a far cry from the most ethical people I know IRL, but he's meant to be a shining hope that Tevinter isn't entirely full of UNethical people.

 

 

He's not the best, but he knows that by now, and he's trying to learn and do and be better. I'd call that bloody ethical enough.

 

Most of us time travelling to 2150 or so, to do the hypothetical, would likely be seen as barbaric and immoral in more than one major way. That doesn't mean we're unethical as people. Our willingness to challenge ourselves on morality in the aim of learning what is good and employing that in our lives - that's ethical.

[SwobyJ]

I got the impression that Dorian traveling to the southern lands gave him some new perspective on his own country.  In my opinion, whether it be slaves in the north, or slums/alienages in the south, neither side has a lot of room to speak about the ethics when it comes to the treatment of it's poor and destitute, as well as with the elves.

 

I do know that Dorian's views definitely align with those of Ancient Rome in our world, where a person could buy their freedom, and there are plenty of accounts of slaves being well treated by their owners.   Some would have even gotten a more formal education, where they could take on the role of tutor, adviser, merchant on behalf of their master, or other potential opportunities.  

 

Does this mean I think Tevinter is right in this regard, or that I agree with Dorian?  No, and a lot of it is because I come from a modern mindset.  I have never lived in a country where slavery was legal, and I was bred in an age of equal rights.  However, I can put myself into a mindset more aligned with Antiquity in our world, and see where Dorian is coming from.   I can understand even if I personally don't agree.  My dwarf agreed with him, due to her experiences with the dwarven caste system.  My human warrior completely disagreed.  Roleplaying is fun.  

 

On topic: Um, no.  Dorian isn't possessed, nor under demon influence.  He's being himself, and unapologetically at that.  Shocking, I know. 

 

Slavery works very very well for the house slaves with good masters. It even lets them live lives that, in most other probability for the times, they would almost never had otherwise had.

 

It just is an inferior system overall compared to, well, non-slavery systems that can still support a society. Overall better to be more and more fair to the many, than consolidate power to the few - despite the pain and effort it takes to have that happen.

 

But we have to at least acknowledge that slavery did well for certain people of both high AND low standing IRL, in our own history, and it provided a foundation, to various extents in different regions at different times, of what is now modern society.

 

Dorian, when he talks of southern Thedas, isn't saying "You know what, there's nothing wrong with slavery! So there!" - he's saying "We all have problems to figure out. Calm down on the condemnation, I'm here to help."

 

Like at least 1/2 of the DAI companions, you can directly or essentially turn down his help. The Inquisition doesn't need him, but maybe your Inquisitor does.

[Kelnuin]

Ethical behavior is about a journey of a developing understanding, one doesn't instantly become enlightened, but enlightenment can happen in an instant.  An Ethical Person is one on that journey, the hypocrite denies there is a journey, the fanatic assumes they have all the answers. Dorian questions and even as he "tongue in cheek" thinks he is the Maker's Gift to Gay/Bi Men, he looks for ways to improve his understanding of issues in his world view.

[Dio Demon]

Wait, Dorian is ethical? The same Dorian who sees nothing wrong with slavery? 

What is freedom if it costs you the life of your loved ones.

 Would you sell your freedom so your family wouldn't starve? 

[Zetheria Tabris]

Yay for hyperbole. He doesn't say there's nothing wrong with slavery. He says that he's only recently considered it and compares it to involuntary segregation and systematic poverty, both of which are also unethical and rob people of their freedom.

 

It's been a while since I've talked to Dorian about this, but from what I recall he said that being a slave was better than being poor, and that slaves in Tevinter were better off since they would live in poverty if they were free. This implies that he thought it was okay. If he thought slavery was wrong, he wouldn't have defended it in such a way.

[nightscrawl]

It is true that those with Dorian's view are in the minority. He is the first to admit this and understands why southerners have such a villainous view of Tevinter; because all of those we meet are like Caladrius, Danarius, Erimond, Alexius, and Corypheus. Even Alexius is more complicated as he used to have similar views. These are in addition to the numerous, nameless slaver mobs we ran into in DA2. Dorian, Krem, and (minorly) Felix are the first Tevinters we've met over three games who are decent people. I'll throw in Maevaris as a bonus since she is technically in DAI but originated in the comics.

 

While Tevinter is a magocracy and mages are at the top of their food pyramid, there are a TON of soporati (non-magical citizens) at the bottom of the pyramid who are just normal people. Additionally, you forget that Krem was in Tevinter's military. They have a normal military structure as well, which happens to be bolstered by mages and magic. All of those people are representative of Tevinter too, and IMO it is unfair to cast down the entire nation based on the (bad) behavior of those who run it.

 

Also, regarding Magister Halward (Dorian's father) and his (considered) use of blood magic: that whole incident is indicative of a more nuanced view of blood magic within Tevinter than people like Fenris suggest. [We recently had an involved discussion of this in the Dorian BSN thread -- starts here.] What does Dorian say of his father? "He taught me to hate blood magic. 'The resort of the weak mind'. That's what he called it." What does this mean? It means relying on an easy method to power instead of using your own intelligence. In other words, it is cheating. People are always inclined to use the easy method, so it's not necessarily about being evil. As despicable as it was, Halward had a moment of weakness and considered using blood magic out of desperation, but his previous views -- which he may still have! -- and his teaching of them to Dorian, should not be discounted.