23 replies to this topic

[cJohnOne]

I usually use magic to get through this game so I was wondering if this is possible.  Can you turn the difficulty up and down?  I think I'd need to use a paladin for the fear thing against a Nightwalker assuming I would get that far.  I think I'd take Grobnar for arrows, Casavir, and  Zajaeve for heals. 

 

Yeah I don't see how I'd get very far without a magic user.  Sure the first part of the game is designed not to use a magic guy but I think I'd get in trouble further in.

 

How would I kill a troll? What are some of thing you would do? How would you do it?

[Tchos]

Well, a troll can be killed with a weapon enchanted with fire/acid damage, or just a thrown flask of alchemist's fire or acid, or other thrown objects that have fire/acid effects. You don't need to cast a spell to do it.

[Arkalezth]

Even if you use spells to kill trolls, acid/fire ones aren't exclusive to arcane casters.

Anyway, you don't need any particular class to complete the game. Some may make it easier, but none is -needed-.

[GCoyote]

Sand is the easiest companion to set up as a craftsman. Tune him up to make all of your custom arms and armor then leave him at the keep. It will probably be more work but it doesn't sound impossible at all.

[cJohnOne]

I'll probably be a female Aasimar paladin -snooze- maybe 16 charisma 16 constitution and 16 strength. if there's enough points.  I feel like the attribute points sort of force me to choose Aasimar. 

 

I don't think I use custom arms and armor.

[GCoyote]

I'll probably be a female Aasimar paladin -snooze- maybe 16 charisma 16 constitution and 16 strength. if there's enough points.  I feel like the attribute points sort of force me to choose Aasimar. 

 

I don't think I use custom arms and armor.

Good luck.

[cJohnOne]

I'm messing around with a Halfling female Paladin with 14 Strength.  Let's see how far I get.

[Axe_Edge]

I've played the OC quite a few times. I just played the OC with a paladin for the first time and acquired the Holy Avenger for the first time! With KevL's OC dragon files installed, I hella earned that sword. You'd better have a good caster or two with you

I got him to about Paladin 7, then cranked on the Fighter. Entering act three of MotB tomorrow.

I've enjoyed this runthrough greatly.

[Dann-J]

There are lots of ways to do without arcane spellcasters. A rogue with a high 'Use Magic Device' skill can use wands and scrolls (class emulation is the easiest to pull off). There are thrown alchemical items (many of them craftable) that produce similar effects to spells. Not to mention magic rods, which anyone can use.

[Jfoxtail]

The balanced D&D prototype party is indeed a : (1) Fighter type (2) Mage type (3) Cleric type and (4) Thief type

 

Mild spoiler...

 

However even in the begining of the game i.e. if you are playing a Paladin you end up playing with 2 Fighters (Khelgar and you) a Rogue (Thief type - Nisha) and Druid (Elanee - Healer type) 

 

You can play the entire game (almost) solo if you so choose ! (there are a few sections with mandatory henchpersons IIRC)

 

The difficulty wont be impossible. You may have to refine your tactics but everything is possible to complete.

 

So correct ~ you don't need a Mage.

 

What you really miss out on then is : 

 

1) Roleplay banter (witty, banal, sarcastic, serious, and more)

 

2) the cross functionality of the different classes. Someone mentioned crafting above and frankly the crafted items are superior to the loot drops from dead foes and chests...

 

However you are "the shard bearer" and how you protect the denizens of the Savage Coast is up to you ! 

 

Enjoy.

[Arkalezth]

Snip

Some of those items have their uses, but they are not a substitute for a real mage. Wands are fine, but only up to level 4 spells, and you either need a mage to craft them in the first place, or rely on the ones you find. Same for scrolls, which also need a very high UMD (or a level in the appropriate class), and have only a single use. Alchemist's fire and similar items do pathetic damage and barely have any use besides killing trolls.

In short, it's true that some of those items make up a bit for the lack of a real spellcaster, but it's still not even close.

Warlocks make the best crafters. I don't know if you can take the required feats with a certain warlock companion, though.

Warrior/rogue/cleric/mage may be the default or theoretically "balanced" party, but that doesn't mean it's the best one.

[Dann-J]

Alchemist's fire and similar items do pathetic damage and barely have any use besides killing trolls.
 

 

Most alchemical grenade items aren't about damage. Choking powder can be crafted at various different levels (from 'normal' to 'perfect'), and comes in handy for melee fighters if they get mobbed. It's basically the equivalent of a Cloud of Bewilderment spell. I've never made much use of tanglefoot bags or thunderstones though.

 

Non-craftable goodies like fire/acid bombs can wreak devastation on enemies - 10d6 damage in a 'huge' radius over five rounds is nothing to sneeze at. The 7th level Acid Fog spell and the 8th level Incendiary Cloud spell only do 4d6 damage (although they may last longer at higher caster levels).

 

 

Wands are fine, but only up to level 4 spells, and you either need a mage to craft them in the first place, or rely on the ones you find.

 

What arcane spellcaster can cast 10 fireballs in a row, followed by 10 bolts of lightning? Or 50 sleep spells, or 16 stinking cloud spells? Granted, such extravagant use could prove expensive.

 

My SoZ halfling party has no arcane spellcaster (fighter / weapon master, cleric / storm lord, rogue / shadowdancer, ranger). I only transfer wands to the rogue when things seem to be going pear-shaped (otherwise the AI has her exhaust them quickly).

[GCoyote]

Issac's Lesser Missile Storm makes a nice little wand too. Works on critters that are resistant to elemental damage.

[Arkalezth]

Most alchemical grenade items aren't about damage.

Then I'll just say they're mostly pathetic, period.
 

Choking powder can be crafted at various different levels (from 'normal' to 'perfect'), and comes in handy for melee fighters if they get mobbed. It's basically the equivalent of a Cloud of Bewilderment spell.

Well, since CoB has friendly fire, I'd be affecting my fighter as well. Getting mobbed shouldn't be a problem, anyway.

As for bombs, well, I'll admit I haven't used those much. How much do they usually cost, though? That's probably one of the reasons.
 

What arcane spellcaster can cast 10 fireballs in a row, followed by 10 bolts of lightning? Or 50 sleep spells, or 16 stinking cloud spells? Granted, such extravagant use could prove expensive.

What's your point? That wands are better than real casters?

A sorcerer can get pretty close to that, anyway (except 50 sleeps in a row, if that's really a concern). Plus at a higher caster level, AND then cast some better spells on top. Then rest and do it again. Also, mages =/= nukers.

Wands are fine, but you can't compare them to a proper mage. This thread is about beating the game without one anyway, so I'm not suggesting to take one. Just telling the OP not to expect to do everything a mage can with a few wands and bombs.

[Dann-J]

Well, since CoB has friendly fire, I'd be affecting my fighter as well.
 

 

Not if playing on normal difficulty. Also, given the low will saves of a fighter, I generally like to equip them with items that provide immunity to mind effects as soon as possible. There's nothing worse than your super-awesome death-dealing melee fighter being completely incapacitated at the start of a fight by a crappy mind-effecting spell.

 

 

What's your point? That wands are better than real casters?

 

No; that they offer a viable alternative if you choose not to take an arcane spellcaster along. You sacrifice quality (ie. power and variety) for quantity though.

 

Of course, an arcane spellcaster can use both spells AND wands, so with them you get the best of both worlds.

[Arkalezth]

Well, okay, there's no friendly fire in normal, but there is in hardcore and above (I personally consider hardcore the default difficulty, as it uses the real rules).

I don't agree that you gain quantity with wands, not unless you craft them often at least (which would require a mage). At the risk of getting lost in the semantics, I wouldn't exactly call it a "viable alternative" either; more like a poor man's substitute.

Anyway, you're right about some items making up a bit for the lack of a mage. If I were going to rely on those a lot, though, I'd just use a mage. Using wands and the like would be kind of missing the point in this particular case.

[Luminus]

Wands are cute but while a mage cannot throw 10+ Fireballs in a row (except a Sorcerer with Empowered/Maximized/Still versions), they can throw an empowered Disintegrate, or Empowered/Maximized Firebrand/Isaac's Missile Storm or a ton of other stuff at MUCH higher DCs than wands or scrolls.

That's the main draw to having a mage, scaling DCs and scaling or enhanced damage at no gold cost (to either buy wands or craft them).
Nevermind that those 50 Sleeps are useless after level 5? Sleep has an HD cap.

[Arkalezth]

And many other "I win" spells besides pure damage ones.

[Dann-J]

At the risk of getting lost in the semantics, I wouldn't exactly call it a "viable alternative" either; more like a poor man's substitute.
 

 

The OC is so easy that a "poor man's substitute" is more than enough to get you through.

 

I've certainly found that my SoZ halfling party gets by with a cleric and a wand-wielding rogue. The fact that the cleric is a storm lord rapid-shotting electric shurikens probably helps though. A couple of times most of the party has ended up dead, with the rogue / shadow dancer being the only one left alive. That's when some hit-and-run tactics involving 'hide in plain sight' and some fireball carpet-bombing comes in handy.

[Jfoxtail]

Yes indeed. Anyone can get through...

 

I did not mean to imply the "prototype D&D party" is the best. Sorry.

 

In fact in many situations it is clearly not the best.

 

However my suggestions were not meant to reflect "optimal outcome". I was rather more focused on "optimal D&D experience". 

 

If the OP is new to D&D ~ or even experienced ~ often the prototype party....gives you the chance to play all roles during rolls be it puzzle solving, combat, crafting, role playing, and generally interacting with your environment.

 

So assuming your Paladinhood is cast you may want :

 

1) You the Paladin 

2) Sand as your lawful mage type ~ he is very Lawful alignment compatible 

3) Elanee as your Cleric Healer type ~ she too seems to be Lawful compatible to me with only minor objections as I recall

4) Neeshka as your rogue type.... from a Role play perspective I recall a number of chances to "admonish her" which would be in character for your Paladin .....

 

(minor spoilers Tomb of Betrayers and Warehouse immediately come to mind).

 

This will allow the Op to combat, to sneek, to open locks, to cast spells, to craft. Everything in the D&D experience.

 

However this is far from optimal in any sense and the OP should and will likely experiment with many parties. 

 

Above all know this shard bearer... you are the one that must enjoy ! 

[Dann-J]

Nevermind that those 50 Sleeps are useless after level 5? Sleep has an HD cap.

 

A Wand of Sleep makes you a juggernaut of destruction early on in the game! Entire groups of enemies get wiped out with a single blow each as you deliver the 'coup de grace' to them. That's a handy tactic for a character with poor equipment and few hit points.

 

I'll hear no more of your disrespect for the Sleep spell, sir! No more indeed.

[Luminus]

A mage is a juggernaut of destruction later on in the game. Entire groups of enemies get wiped out with a single spell each as they fail their saves.

I'll hear no more of your disrespect for mages, sir. No more indeed.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I always find myself playing a rogue initially with high dex and int and then after a while dual classing to Mage. The high dex and int are great for both classes. If you don't want to create a Mage or use Sand then you could also start as a rogue and if you change your mind dual class.

Or use my Makeover and import whoever you like. It is a good way to experiment with classes.

Regards

[Dann-J]

I was inspired to play the OC again, to see if a Halfling rogue / ranger with a high UMD skill could compensate for the lack of an arcane caster in the party. I'm in chapter II so far, and the answer has been an overwhelming 'yes'.

 

Taking skill focus in UMD allowed him to use wands very early in the game. The OC seems to throw free wands at you at an astounding pace - usually faster than I can use them. I spammed a wand of stinking cloud shamelessly while defending the warehouse, and a lowly wand of paralysis quickly turned the odds in the party's favour around Old Owl Well.

 

By about level 10 he was able to cast from most of the scrolls he'd collected. He's currently at level 11 (4 rogue, 6 ranger, 1 shadowdancer) and can use most equipment as well - he's currently decked out in a mithral Arcane Archer chainshirt I bought from Deekin.

 

The 'dwarven mirth' light shield has proven useful, with its +2 to charisma (which adds +1 to UMD). It's amazing how much of a difference just a single extra point of UMD can make. Using more powerful scrolls is just a single Eagle's Splendour potion away.

 

As with wands, I'm finding myself collecting scrolls faster than I can use them. With his flaming +3 sling and Rapid Shot active, it's not often that he has to resort to using pilfered magic. Now that I have access to Port Llast, I can save my pocket money up for a sling with infinite ammo, like Tempertuppin's Ever-thrower (1d6 fire bullets) or the Whistling Sling (1d6 ice bullets). You sure do churn through ammo with Rapid Shot always active. Then I'll have all that extra inventory space to collect more wands and scrolls that I probably won't use.