1395 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barely any proof of the Protheans? The Feros Colony was built on a Prothean ruin. The Mars Archives were huge. Humans had hit the jackpot - there were three intact Prothean ships buried in addition to the archive. That's how humanity made their technological jump so quickly. The Asari just hid theirs to present an illusion that they had made all their scientific discoveries on their own, and since they had discovered the Citadel first 2500 years before humans, and 500 years before the Salarians, who was anyone to say otherwise? 

 

Vendetta was programmed to activate when the Crucible was completed. And by plot design no one on Earth knew the Asari had an Archive even though The Illusive Man discovered the location on Thessia in the Mars Archives. 

 

I find it amazing that the secret for defeating the reapers was buried only in the Mars and the Thessian Archives and that the Protheans apparently thought that the lizard people and the raptor race were too primitive to make effective use of the knowledge. 

 

"They were amphibians." - Liara T'soni

 

They used to eat flies.

[gothpunkboy89]

Barely any proof of the Protheans? The Feros Colony was built on a Prothean ruin. The Mars Archives were huge. Humans had hit the jackpot - there were three intact Prothean ships buried in addition to the archive. That's how humanity made their technological jump so quickly. The Asari just hid theirs to present an illusion that they had made all their scientific discoveries on their own, and since they had discovered the Citadel first 2500 years before humans, and 500 years before the Salarians, who was anyone to say otherwise? 

 

Vendetta was programmed to activate when the Crucible was completed. And by plot design no one on Earth knew the Asari had an Archive even though The Illusive Man discovered the location on Thessia in the Mars Archives. 

 

I find it amazing that the secret for defeating the reapers was buried only in the Mars and the Thessian Archives and that the Protheans apparently thought that the lizard people and the raptor race were too primitive to make effective use of the knowledge. 

 

"They were amphibians." - Liara T'soni

 

They used to eat flies.

 

And yet very little Prothean Tech there. It is easy to make buildings. 90% of what they find in archaeology is the same kind of stuff we would consider junk or garbage. The actual meat so to speak of ancient species is rare and hard to find. That is why we have no idea what language was spoken in Ancient Egypt.  We have the scraps left over to guess at what happened. But nothing really meaty beyond a few tombs.

 

Hence Liara particularity surprise at how Javik acted in ME3. And her surprise and dismay to a point of how Protheans really were. There was nothing to show they didn't form a shared community like currently. But forced all groups to follow them or risk being destroyed. Nor that the Protheans were manipulating species to eventually join them. Hence the shock Liara has, the Prothean expert of the group at the idea of them having such a hand in shaping the Asari.

 

I don't know of any line of dialog that states they stated ALL their advancements were their own. How ever yes their hiding of it did give them a slight tech advantage. Then again their up to 1000 year life span would give them a massive advantage as well.

 

It is never made clear how the Turians and Salarians gained FTL flight. Only really humans up to that point in ME3 were fully explained how and were they found Prothean tech and made the jump. Or at least I don't remember anything about it. Just being glossed over.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And yet very little Prothean Tech there. It is easy to make buildings. 90% of what they find in archaeology is the same kind of stuff we would consider junk or garbage. The actual meat so to speak of ancient species is rare and hard to find. That is why we have no idea what language was spoken in Ancient Egypt.  We have the scraps left over to guess at what happened. But nothing really meaty beyond a few tombs.

 

Hence Liara particularity surprise at how Javik acted in ME3. And her surprise and dismay to a point of how Protheans really were. There was nothing to show they didn't form a shared community like currently. But forced all groups to follow them or risk being destroyed. Nor that the Protheans were manipulating species to eventually join them. Hence the shock Liara has, the Prothean expert of the group at the idea of them having such a hand in shaping the Asari.

 

I don't know of any line of dialog that states they stated ALL their advancements were their own. How ever yes their hiding of it did give them a slight tech advantage. Then again their up to 1000 year life span would give them a massive advantage as well.

 

It is never made clear how the Turians and Salarians gained FTL flight. Only really humans up to that point in ME3 were fully explained how and were they found Prothean tech and made the jump. Or at least I don't remember anything about it. Just being glossed over.

 

Who cares about what Liara thought about how the Protheans really were as a civilization? What was really stupid was how if you had anyone in your party except Javik, they made Liara look like an idiot because even our resident grunts, Ashley and James figured it out.

 

The Turians and Salarians? Glossed over. It's mentioned in passing that the Asari were the only ones who didn't have a Prothean archive and did it on their own. Then we find out the truth. They were the first to discover theirs, got what they needed and buried it in a temple about 500 years before the Salarians discovered the Citadel. Only the Matriarchs in the government knew about it and kept it secret. Basically all the archives were the same except for the programs therein regarding the Crucible. 

 

Bottom line was that the Protheans bet the bank on humanity - humans are special. If humans blew up their world with a nuclear war in 2077 the galaxy was f***ed because apparently no other archive had plans for the Crucible. Only the Mars Archives. And the Asari had Vendetta. Plans for the Crucible would have been left in the Mars Archives for the next cycle to hopefully discover. And since Earth was dead, who would look on Mars? It would be looking for a needle in a haystack. No one would know about the catalyst. Back to square one. Protheans = dumb.

[MrFob]

Well, there are a few points to add to this:
a) The Protheans probably didn't bet on the humans or if they did, it wasn't by choice. Remember, when the prothean work on the crucible started, the reapers were already there. Relay travel and communications were already disrupted and indoctrination was already a problem. It is more likely that it was pure chance that the crucible plans ended up being stored in the Mars archive as opposed to anywhere else (although, the convenient discovery there by the beginning of ME3 is of course a very forced plot point, no argument there). IIRC, there is nothing to indicate that the protheans saw anything really special un humans. It was just one more species in early development they studied (and possibly were planning to groom towards another subservient race, possibly ramping up the development program once the reapers arrived just as they did with the asari).
b ) I also remember that it's mentioned somewhere that the turians and salarans had prothean tech in their systems. But technically, since both species have relays in their home system, they didn't really have to invent FTL on their own (neither did we by the way, although we did). They could just have found the relay, rode the network to the Citadel and met the asari there, who might then have shared FTL tech. I am not sure if how it all happened is specifically mentioned anywhere. We don't know if all the Prothean archives were the same or if they all where in the same shape. The archives on Mars sure look a lot different than the beacons, so I guess others might be different as well.

[Han Shot First]

Melee weapons like swords and war hammers.

[gothpunkboy89]

Who cares about what Liara thought about how the Protheans really were as a civilization? What was really stupid was how if you had anyone in your party except Javik, they made Liara look like an idiot because even our resident grunts, Ashley and James figured it out.

 

The Turians and Salarians? Glossed over. It's mentioned in passing that the Asari were the only ones who didn't have a Prothean archive and did it on their own. Then we find out the truth. They were the first to discover theirs, got what they needed and buried it in a temple about 500 years before the Salarians discovered the Citadel. Only the Matriarchs in the government knew about it and kept it secret. Basically all the archives were the same except for the programs therein regarding the Crucible. 

 

Bottom line was that the Protheans bet the bank on humanity - humans are special. If humans blew up their world with a nuclear war in 2077 the galaxy was f***ed because apparently no other archive had plans for the Crucible. Only the Mars Archives. And the Asari had Vendetta. Plans for the Crucible would have been left in the Mars Archives for the next cycle to hopefully discover. And since Earth was dead, who would look on Mars? It would be looking for a needle in a haystack. No one would know about the catalyst. Back to square one. Protheans = dumb.

 

Because Liara spent decades studying them. Which is the point the ruins told nothing of them as an actual species.  Liara even admits she has only been to the place once before as a child. And admits over the years the Goddess became more and more Asari like. The fact is unless you have Javik on your team no one would know what a real Prothean would look like. Collectors were Protheans but no one knew how much modification was done to them once the Reapers got a hold of them. That entire set up was made for Javik to be in your team specifically for the revel. How ever because he is optional DLC they had to add other dialogue if you didn't download the DLC or picked another squad mate.

 

There are other reasons but not going to bother with them as some people might be sensitive to them about the nature of religion.

 

They didn't bet the bank on humanity. They bet the bank on the Asari. Hence the manipulation and protection of their planet. They are the only planet besides the Hanar that they took a direct hand in manipulating. Unlike every other species the Protheans directly left a large cache of data right on their planet. Every other species unless I'm missing something actually had to achieve some form of space flight before they found their Prothean data to make the jump. Minus the uplifted species like Krogan or Elcor to a lesser extent.   They left the Asari the most important part of the whole thing. There might have even been a copy of the crucible in the archives. They just never bothered to look for it. Humans had their hands on the archive for nearly 30 years at the point of ME3. And yet only last minute do they find out about the crucible.

 

But most likely Protheans were smart. You don't put all your eggs in one basket as the saying goes. Leave one part the most crucial part with the Asari while leaving the plans for the crucible with another one.

[Pasquale1234]

You keep hammering home that the ME1 characters didn't do anything. Yet you seem to miss the simple fact on your way to persecute them. The big important fact you keep overlooking is the fact that no one believed them. Even Shepard didn't get any support only Anderson and Hackett to a lesser extend believed him.  How ever the 3 out of 4 councilors didn't believe him. And the remaining human parliament didn't believe him.
 
Your posts keep having this feel of you pointing at them demanding them to awnser for their inaction and how their inaction caused problems. But you seem to willingly ignore they didn't choose inaction. They simply couldn't act.  Everything was swept under the rug leaving them with nothing to be able to do.

A couple of notes.

Between ME2->3, Garrus was able to convince his father who was able to get support for a task force from the Primarch. It wasn't much, but then - what do you do to prepare for the reapers? Given their militaristic nature, the average turian citizen is probably already armed and combat-ready.

Also, during that same timeframe, Liara was searching Shadow Broker records and at some point, partnered with Hackett to search the Mars Archives. Without their timely efforts, the Crucible design would not have landed in the Alliance's hands.
 

They didn't bet the bank on humanity. They bet the bank on the Asari. Hence the manipulation and protection of their planet. They are the only planet besides the Hanar that they took a direct hand in manipulating. Unlike every other species the Protheans directly left a large cache of data right on their planet.

I'm not aware of any Prothean data cache on Thessia. There was some artwork, manuscripts, and the like that were remnants from their Prothean visitor(s), and the Beacon.

Fortunately, they were able to keep that Beacon - and Vendetta - secure until it could be used. Shepard has a tendency to wreck them (Eden Prime, Virmire).

[gothpunkboy89]

A couple of notes.

Between ME2->3, Garrus was able to convince his father who was able to get support for a task force from the Primarch. It wasn't much, but then - what do you do to prepare for the reapers? Given their militaristic nature, the average turian citizen is probably already armed and combat-ready.

Also, during that same timeframe, Liara was searching Shadow Broker records and at some point, partnered with Hackett to search the Mars Archives. Without their timely efforts, the Crucible design would not have landed in the Alliance's hands.
 

I'm not aware of any Prothean data cache on Thessia. There was some artwork, manuscripts, and the like that were remnants from their Prothean visitor(s), and the Beacon.

Fortunately, they were able to keep that Beacon - and Vendetta - secure until it could be used. Shepard has a tendency to wreck them (Eden Prime, Virmire).

 She is specifically talking about ME1 and ME2. Which is why I keep pointing out  what I find to be a glaring flaw in her outlook of how things happened.

 

It wasn't a beacon what you find on Priority: Thessia is a Prothean computer. A beacon wouldn't be able to house the VI Vendetta anymore then an Omni Tool would. It would have to be much more powerful to host it.

[themikefest]

 She is specifically talking about ME1 and ME2. Which is why I keep pointing out  what I find to be a glaring flaw in her outlook of how things happened.

Why are you assuming I'm a she?

[MrFob]

It wasn't a beacon what you find on Priority: Thessia is a Prothean computer. A beacon wouldn't be able to house the VI Vendetta anymore then an Omni Tool would. It would have to be much more powerful to host it.

 

1. If I am not mistaken, it is a beacon although granted, it's unclear what defines a beacon, Garrus calls the thing on Mars a beacon as well in this scene. But regardless, we don't really know what the beacons can or cannot store.

2. Kai Leng actuallyy copies Vendetta into his omni tool and carries it out of the building.

[gothpunkboy89]

Why are you assuming I'm a she?

Because you use a female avatar with a user name that is clearly at least 3 maybe 4 words smoshed together. So I'm referring your gender to your picture to simply things.

[gothpunkboy89]

1. If I am not mistaken, it is a beacon although granted, it's unclear what defines a beacon, Garrus calls the thing on Mars a beacon as well in this scene. But regardless, we don't really know what the beacons can or cannot store.

2. Kai Leng actuallyy copies Vendetta into his omni tool and carries it out of the building.

 

Well based on Vigil and Javik's speech beacons were used as communication tools. Able to send and receive messages right to the person's mind.   It has probably become a catch all term for them. But I would but Mars Archive and Thessia closer to data bases or maybe servers.

 

But can't copy the rest of the information in the tower.  Did kind of forget about that.

[MrFob]

Well based on Vigil and Javik's speech beacons were used as communication tools. Able to send and receive messages right to the person's mind.   It has probably become a catch all term for them. But I would but Mars Archive and Thessia closer to data bases or maybe servers.

 

Your computer/smartphone is also used for communication. It's also a data base. Why would you assume anything different about the beacons, especially because:

1. Clearly they stored the Illos message about the reapers and have some sophisticated mechanism that allows them to sense organics in the vicinity and play the message back to them. That already proves that they are more than just antennas.

2. Even from the first moments of ME1 it is implied that the beacons are also databases. Why did the Normandy fly to Eden Prime to pick it up again? It wasn't because they were hoping to retrieve a communication device but another huge boatload of prothean data.

 

Ultimately, we don't really know nearly enough about prothean tech to make any assumptions or rule anything out.

[Pasquale1234]

1. If I am not mistaken, it is a beacon although granted, it's unclear what defines a beacon, Garrus calls the thing on Mars a beacon as well in this scene. But regardless, we don't really know what the beacons can or cannot store.
2. Kai Leng actuallyy copies Vendetta into his omni tool and carries it out of the building.

Interesting catch about the terminology Garrus used. Maybe there was a beacon in addition to the other artifacts on Mars? Or maybe, whoever wrote the dialogue just wanted to somehow simplify the terminology.

That the depository on Mars was referred to as an Archive infers multiple items / information sources. I guess there were 3 intact ships, a supply of refined eezo, and perhaps other goodies left there as well.
 

Well based on Vigil and Javik's speech beacons were used as communication tools. Able to send and receive messages right to the person's mind. It has probably become a catch all term for them. But I would but Mars Archive and Thessia closer to data bases or maybe servers.

But can't copy the rest of the information in the tower. Did kind of forget about that.

Yeah, the beacons were supposedly capable of transmitting (and apparently storing) messages and data. The "artifact" on Thessia is referred to as a beacon by multiple people, including Javik. It also looks rather like the beacons we saw on Eden Prime and Virmire.

The artifact in the central repository on Mars looks a bit different, though - rather like some configuration of very large Prothean Echo Shards, which I guess makes sense as they are data storage devices.

Either way, there seem to be some inconsistencies in the way the various technologies were handled in the story. There is an implication that beacons are designed to transmit information directly into a Prothean mind (including someone with the cipher), yet Vendetta appears to pop out of the Thessia "beacon".

The artifact on Mars is directly accessible through terminals, and apparently its contents can be downloaded and erased from the source, which is what Eva Core was doing.

The inconsistencies make it a bit difficult to discuss any of the fine points around these technologies.

[gothpunkboy89]

Your computer/smartphone is also used for communication. It's also a data base. Why would you assume anything different about the beacons, especially because:

1. Clearly they stored the Illos message about the reapers and have some sophisticated mechanism that allows them to sense organics in the vicinity and play the message back to them. That already proves that they are more than just antennas.

2. Even from the first moments of ME1 it is implied that the beacons are also databases. Why did the Normandy fly to Eden Prime to pick it up again? It wasn't because they were hoping to retrieve a communication device but another huge boatload of prothean data.

 

Ultimately, we don't really know nearly enough about prothean tech to make any assumptions or rule anything out.

 

That is how Protheans communicate. Did you not get Javik as team mate? They evolved beyond basic vocal translations able to transfer thoughts between skin touch. Hence Javik was able to instantly know everything about Shepard including a speech he had never heard before and of the warning Shepard got from the Eden Prime Beacon simply by a few seconds of contact.

 

Beacons are I think a catch all term they use for any Prothean data source. Why else did the beacons on Eden and Virmine only send the warning to Shepard rather then anything else? Virgil was barely there but Vendetta was significantly more stabilized. If what you find on Eden Prime/Virmire are the same as on Thessia why is there not a Prothean VI attached to it? Why when the scientist sent out their message did they not send VI's to every beacon? Or at least why isn't there one on Mars?

 

No I think Beacon is a catch all term like Native American or Christianity which bypasses or ignores the different variations they come in. Ex: Apache/Seminole or Catholic/Protestant.

[gothpunkboy89]

Interesting catch about the terminology Garrus used. Maybe there was a beacon in addition to the other artifacts on Mars? Or maybe, whoever wrote the dialogue just wanted to somehow simplify the terminology.

That the depository on Mars was referred to as an Archive infers multiple items / information sources. I guess there were 3 intact ships, a supply of refined eezo, and perhaps other goodies left there as well.
 

Yeah, the beacons were supposedly capable of transmitting (and apparently storing) messages and data. The "artifact" on Thessia is referred to as a beacon by multiple people, including Javik. It also looks rather like the beacons we saw on Eden Prime and Virmire.

The artifact in the central repository on Mars looks a bit different, though - rather like some configuration of very large Prothean Echo Shards, which I guess makes sense as they are data storage devices.

Either way, there seem to be some inconsistencies in the way the various technologies were handled in the story. There is an implication that beacons are designed to transmit information directly into a Prothean mind (including someone with the cipher), yet Vendetta appears to pop out of the Thessia "beacon".

The artifact on Mars is directly accessible through terminals, and apparently its contents can be downloaded and erased from the source, which is what Eva Core was doing.

The inconsistencies make it a bit difficult to discuss any of the fine points around these technologies.

 

 

The beacon on Eden and Vimire were much smaller in scale then Thessia/Mars. We know the Protheans were studying Humans and they were taking direct steps in manipulating the Asari.  They abandoned the Mars base because of the Reapers to protect them. Hence why the ships were still there and the large Data archive.

 

Beacon is a catch all term it seems. Mars and Thessia were actual computers or at least what we would think of as computers.  Eden/Virmire were closer to smart phones of today.

[BioWareMod02]

Hello everyone. Please keep it civil and avoid political discussion or derailing the thread with discussions from other threads. Thank you.

[MrFob]

That is how Protheans communicate. Did you not get Javik as team mate? They evolved beyond basic vocal translations able to transfer thoughts between skin touch. Hence Javik was able to instantly know everything about Shepard including a speech he had never heard before and of the warning Shepard got from the Eden Prime Beacon simply by a few seconds of contact.

 

Beacons are I think a catch all term they use for any Prothean data source. Why else did the beacons on Eden and Virmine only send the warning to Shepard rather then anything else? Virgil was barely there but Vendetta was significantly more stabilized. If what you find on Eden Prime/Virmire are the same as on Thessia why is there not a Prothean VI attached to it? Why when the scientist sent out their message did they not send VI's to every beacon? Or at least why isn't there one on Mars?

 

No I think Beacon is a catch all term like Native American or Christianity which bypasses or ignores the different variations they come in. Ex: Apache/Seminole or Catholic/Protestant.

 

Again, you are assuming a lot of stuff, such as "prothean tech#1 can do Y but not X while prothean tech#2 can do X but not Z". There is no foundation in the game to conclude these things. So you cannot state that something doesn't make sense based on these assumptions (in fact, I don't even remember what you thought didn't make sense in the first place).

 

The point remains: Prothean tech like that beacons has so many unknowns to it that we cannot rule anything out.

 

To answer your question, why the protheans didn't send a VI to every beacon: Vigil explains this. They wanted to reach organics (aka protheans) specifically without a chance that the reapers would find out about them (he also says that at the time they didn't understand the issues of indoctrination). They were afraid that if they sent an audiovisual message or a VI for that matter, the reapers could find it and find out about Illos. That doesn't tell you anything about the capabilities of the beacons themselves though.

 

And why isn't there one on Mars: There could really be a gazillion reasons why not. Maybe it's defunct after 50.000 years, maybe they didn't need one there, maybe there is one and it hasn't been discovered (there seem to be different layers of data in these archives, hence the crucible data wasn't found until 2186). As we really don't know too much about this tech, you (or the writers) can come up with any reason you want (which is my entire point).

[gothpunkboy89]

Again, you are assuming a lot of stuff, such as "prothean tech#1 can do Y but not X while prothean tech#2 can do X but not Z". There is no foundation in the game to conclude these things.

 

But I can based on our technology. Compare an Iphone 6 to a high end Desktop computer in capability.

 

We have 3 different examples of Prothean computer tech that actually shows up in game rather then just game play elements like the data disks.

 

The beacon that only shows warning information about Reapers and Ilos on Eden/Virmire

 

The beacons on Thessia and Mars archive which contain much more information allowing Humanity to jump in technology and the Asari to create and maintain technological superiority compared to all the other advanced races.

 

The shard Javik has that allows him to see the memory imprints on it from previous owners.

 

Each one is analogical of modern tech.

 

Shard is a Prothean version of a digital picture frame with a USB connected to it. Only able to display pictures or short videos.

 

The beacons on Eden/Virmire are large. They are used and Virgil specifies that they used the beacons to transmit the warning and telling them to come to Ilos. They are smart phones. Used to communicate long distances and able to store data that was sent to it. Much in the same way if I sent you info to your smart phone about my cure for the chicken pox your phone would have that information if someone found it.

 

Mars/Thessia are by far the largest ones. Much larger then the ones found on Eden/Virmire. These are actual computers if not data bases with a large repository of data stored in them. 

 

How else would the Asari maintain tech superiority over the rest of the galaxy by hording 1 beacon?

 

How ever they all look the same they all follow the same design set up. Even Javik's little shard looks like like the rest of the beacons. But they all have different functions.

[MrFob]

If I am not mistaken, the issue was saving and executing a VI and that only the "big" prothean computers can do it, right?

 

But I can based on our technology. Compare an Iphone 6 to a high end Desktop computer in capability.

 

The closest thing we have to a VI today is probably Siri.

[gothpunkboy89]

Well it is all the same. Beacons on Eden/Virmire were Prothean version of quantum entanglement communicator.  Virgil was not attached to a beacon and it states that beacons were used for communication.

 

Vendetta was connected to the Prothean data base on Thessia.

 

How Kai was able to transport him is up for debate.

[MrFob]

I think it's pretty clear that Vendetta was an independent program that could run on any computer. After all, it works just fine on Cronos station. Kai Leng just copies it on a USB stick and takes it along.

 

And I am still not sure what you are going on about with the beacons. Yes, their primary purpose may be communication but hey are just networked computers and we have no idea how powerful they may or may not be or how much data can be stored in them.

 

I really don't see a problem here.

[Iakus]

I think it's pretty clear that Vendetta was an independent program that could run on any computer. After all, it works just fine on Cronos station. Kai Leng just copies it on a USB stick and takes it along.

 

Amazing how such a sophisticated program is fully compatible with two different computer systems separated by tens of thousands of years and developed by completely different species with different sensory systems and even counting systems (humans have base ten and I believe Protheans have base 8)

 

Speaking of stuff not making sense 

[gothpunkboy89]

I think it's pretty clear that Vendetta was an independent program that could run on any computer. After all, it works just fine on Cronos station. Kai Leng just copies it on a USB stick and takes it along.

 

And I am still not sure what you are going on about with the beacons. Yes, their primary purpose may be communication but hey are just networked computers and we have no idea how powerful they may or may not be or how much data can be stored in them.

 

I really don't see a problem here.

 

Because it seems like people are lumping Eden prime and Thessia into the same boat.

 

Which is a lot like saying  the QEC and EDI are the same thing.

[MrFob]

Amazing how such a sophisticated program is fully compatible with two different computer systems separated by tens of thousands of years and developed by completely different species with different sensory systems and even counting systems (humans have base ten and I believe Protheans have base 8)

 

Speaking of stuff not making sense 

 

Well, since the humans of 2186 developed most of their current technology from the prothean ruins on Mars, I can buy that. People were studying prothean tech for years and years. If they could get something out of all these prothean data discs we collected in ME1, why not this?

 

@gothpunkboy89: Well, my point is, we simply don't know how different or similar they are. So as far as I am concerned, everyone is welcome to their head canon about the matter.