1395 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

Because it's fun to pick it apart. 

 

Oh it can be. Things they forgot about or overlooked. Players trying to come up with their own explanations of why something is at it is. It is all rather fun.  Treating it as a Roast almost. Calling out the issues but all in good fun.

 

You how ever take it to almost malicious levels some times. And that is the problem I have.

 

BTW Thanix Cannon is possible in theroy.  Provided they kept the lower temperature Iron/Uranium separate from the higher temperature tungsten.  Combining them only during the firing sequence. Which would be to fast for the iron in any appreciable amount to boil away. Once in the cold vacuum of space it would cool the metals down significantly to reduce the temp to below iron's boil point. And depending on how far away the target is even cool down enough to turn into a solid object.

 

 

As well the most common uranimum-238 isn't very radioactive. It needs to be processed before it reaches actual levels that could be used in a bomb or nuclear reactor. And even then if they went with depleted uranium it would be even less radioactive while still retaining the high density.  And these cannons are designed for ship to ship combat not ship to ground combat.  So a little extra radiation in space is pretty meaningless. Like opening a packet of salt in the ocean.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@gothpunkboy89: Fine. 

 

*****

 

BTW, we were using Polonium and Sledgehammer Rounds in ME1. Standard issue in the galaxy for centuries. No use of depleted uranium was mentioned to my knowledge. The most common form of polonium has a half-life of 138 days. The most stable form has a half-life of 133 yrs, but if the purpose is to induce radiation sickness you'd want to use the one with the shortest half-life, right? Make sure your soldiers are wearing lead lined armor. 

 

Yet you and your team suffer no ill effects from hauling around that block of highly toxic radioactive material. While a logical reason for this is the fact that it typically releases alpha particles when it decays, that block would get quite warm. Also it does release gamma radiation. We know that not all rounds hit their targets, so just imagine the clean up if you used these on the Citadel, in that Hotel on Noveria, or any of those other nice places.

 

The Council seems to think the use of polonium is fine. It simply doesn't make any sense. 

[KrrKs]

Yet you and your team suffer no ill effects from hauling around that block of highly toxic radioactive material.

 

You also don't suffer from the neutron explosion at Noveria, which is supposed to lead to drastic genetic defects outside of the 'immediately lethal' range.

Or from inhaling the Thorian's spores, or walking besides Reaper debris and artefacts, never mind entering an actual complete reaper.

[Iakus]

@gothpunkboy89: Fine. 

 

*****

 

BTW, we were using Polonium and Sledgehammer Rounds in ME1. Standard issue in the galaxy for centuries. No use of depleted uranium was mentioned to my knowledge. The most common form of polonium has a half-life of 138 days. The most stable form has a half-life of 133 yrs, but if the purpose is to induce radiation sickness you'd want to use the one with the shortest half-life, right? Make sure your soldiers are wearing lead lined armor. 

 

Yet you and your team suffer no ill effects from hauling around that block of highly toxic radioactive material. While a logical reason for this is the fact that it typically releases alpha particles when it decays, that block would get quite warm. Also it does release gamma radiation. We know that not all rounds hit their targets, so just imagine the clean up if you used these on the Citadel, in that Hotel on Noveria, or any of those other nice places.

 

The Council seems to think the use of polonium is fine. It simply doesn't make any sense. 

Given in ME3 you can walk around in a nuclear reactor in your hardsuit, I imagine Alliance-issued combat armor does protect from radiation.

 

Which I guess makes sense, since if you're fighting on different worlds, with different atmospheres and magnetic fields, radiation could in fact be an issue.

 

Run around expecting a leather harness and tattoos to protect you is a different story.

 

And just imagine the walls are made from vibranium, the the crates Shepard hides behind because they provide better protection that said armor 

[MrFob]

You also don't suffer from the neutron explosion at Noveria, which is supposed to lead to drastic genetic defects outside of the 'immediately lethal' range.

Or from inhaling the Thorian's spores, or walking besides Reaper debris and artefacts, never mind entering an actual complete reaper.

 

Neutron charge: I was always under the impression that the hot labs are shielded in some fancy way (including the bottom of the elevator that you escape in), so the effects are restricted to them. After all, if you don't make it to the elevator, you are dead.

 

Thorian's spores: Obviously, the spores do not take an immediate effect (iiRC, the AI at Exogeni HQ even mentions a time course). After the Thorian is killed, everyone seems to go back to normal anyway, Dr. Chackwas can at this point probably help as well with remaining spores off screen.

 

Reaper indoctrination: Yes, this one is weird and unexplained (it's been discussed a lot, too). Shepard is probably the human with the most exposure to reaper tech (including stuff that even does screw with his mind actively, such as object rho), so it is strange that s/he doesn't get indoctrinated. Apparently, this was at some point considered as a plot point in ME3 but was dropped due to time and budged issues. Some hints can still be seen and that's part of what spawned IT.

IMO, one of the worst offenders in this regard can be found in Leviathan. In Dr. Bryson's office you can find a piece of Sovereign and someone (don't remember if it's EDI or Anne Bryson) says not to worry because it's shielded to prevent indoctrination. If it were so easy to shield against it, why is indoctrination even an issue? I thought the whole point of the menace of indoctrination was that there is no real defense against it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Neutron charge: I was always under the impression that the hot labs are shielded in some fancy way (including the bottom of the elevator that you escape in), so the effects are restricted to them. After all, if you don't make it to the elevator, you are dead.

 

Thorian's spores: Obviously, the spores do not take an immediate effect (iiRC, the AI at Exogeni HQ even mentions a time course. After the Thorian is killed, everyone seems to go back to normal anyway, Dr. Chackwas can at this point probably help as well with remaining spores off screen.

 

Reaper indoctrination: Yes, this one is weird and unexplained (it's been discussed a lot, too). Shepard is probably the human with the most exposure to reaper tech (including stuff that even does screw with his mind actively, such as object rho), so it is strange that s/he doesn't get indoctrinated. Apparently, this was at some point considered as a plot point in ME3 but was dropped due to time and budged issues. Some hints can still be seen and that's part of what spawned IT.

IMO, one of the worst offenders in this regard can be found in Leviathan. In Dr. Bryson's office you can find a piece of Sovereign and someone (don't remember if it's EDI or Anne Bryson) says not to worry because it's shielded to prevent indoctrination. If it were so easy to shield against it, why is indoctrination even an issue? I thought the whole point of the menace of indoctrination was that there is no real defense against it.

 

this is why Indoctrination Theory was so popular given the Original Ending to ME3. I still think it would have been an awesome ending if they did an Indoctrination DLC. But that would have made sense and as such a discussion of that matter does not belong in this thread. *slaps self for bringing it up* 

[SuperJogi]

BTW Thanix Cannon is possible in theroy.  Provided they kept the lower temperature Iron/Uranium separate from the higher temperature tungsten.  Combining them only during the firing sequence. Which would be to fast for the iron in any appreciable amount to boil away. Once in the cold vacuum of space it would cool the metals down significantly to reduce the temp to below iron's boil point. And depending on how far away the target is even cool down enough to turn into a solid object.

 

Just a few additions:

 

1. Space may be very cold, but it's also a very good insulator since matter will only lose heat through radiation. Any specific calculations on how much heat would be lost however are impossible to do without knowing the mass and shape of the object we're talking about (and very complex math that I can't be bothered to do )

 

2. Melting and vapor points would change in vacuum, which further complicates things.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would probably be very hard to pull off.

 

Yet you and your team suffer no ill effects from hauling around that block of highly toxic radioactive material. While a logical reason for this is the fact that it typically releases alpha particles when it decays, that block would get quite warm. Also it does release gamma radiation. We know that not all rounds hit their targets, so just imagine the clean up if you used these on the Citadel, in that Hotel on Noveria, or any of those other nice places.

 

The Council seems to think the use of polonium is fine. It simply doesn't make any sense. 

 

Yeah, polonium rounds the way they are shown in game don't make any sense. In addition to the contamination issues you already mentioned: 

Even severe radiation poisoning takes days to kill, so it wouldn't give your weapon any additional stopping power. Not to mention of course the severe ethical issues with using such ammunition (but nobody seems to care about the geneva conventions anyway).

Polonium ammo would only make sense if it was used as a very specialized weapon by assassins to make sure that the target definetly dies even if the initial hit wasn't fatal.

 

Given in ME3 you can walk around in a nuclear reactor in your hardsuit, I imagine Alliance-issued combat armor does protect from radiation.

 

Well it's a fusion reactor, so the only really radioactive parts are the inside walls of the containment chamber. And I don't think you walk around inside of that. (And if so, THAT doesn't make any sense.)

 

Neutron charge: I was always under the impression that the hot labs are shielded in some fancy way (including the bottom of the elevator that you escape in), so the effects are restricted to them. After all, if you don't make it to the elevator, you are dead.

 

It doesnt even have to be very fancy. Neutrons are fairly easy to shield and the hot labs seem to be seperated by several meters of solid rock and gravel, that would be enough. I don't see any problem with the neutron cleaning on Noveria except of course that the rachni (and you) wouldnt die immediatly, but that's fine for dramaturgic reasons.

[Dantriges]

Minor thing. The pond in Sanctuary hiding machinery and a gate. What´s the point? Unless it´s literally brown water you could still see them and just makes it harder to access. And the refugees would wonder why you have a door at the bottom of a pond, which looks suspicious, silly, something inbetween.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Sanctuary .... I mean wouldn't the people going there get a little suspicious when family members started disappearing? Or were they being cared for while certain ones volunteered to donate themselves for some scientific study that could prove beneficial in the fight against the reapers?

 

"Why lie to them? They know they're never going to see their family members again. We're doing horrible experiments injecting them full of reaper nanides hoping to understand the process of huskification and how the reapers control them." - It would have been funny if Henry Lawson had this line on one of the data nodes we found. Of course that would be too Handsome Jack of him.

 

Also... knowing the results of Lawson's work is why it doesn't make any sense why someone as smart as The Illusive Man would inject himself full of reaper nanides, starting the process of huskification.... so that the reapers could control him. :facepalm:   .... da evulz.

[gothpunkboy89]

Neutron charge: I was always under the impression that the hot labs are shielded in some fancy way (including the bottom of the elevator that you escape in), so the effects are restricted to them. After all, if you don't make it to the elevator, you are dead.

 

Thorian's spores: Obviously, the spores do not take an immediate effect (iiRC, the AI at Exogeni HQ even mentions a time course). After the Thorian is killed, everyone seems to go back to normal anyway, Dr. Chackwas can at this point probably help as well with remaining spores off screen.

 

Reaper indoctrination: Yes, this one is weird and unexplained (it's been discussed a lot, too). Shepard is probably the human with the most exposure to reaper tech (including stuff that even does screw with his mind actively, such as object rho), so it is strange that s/he doesn't get indoctrinated. Apparently, this was at some point considered as a plot point in ME3 but was dropped due to time and budged issues. Some hints can still be seen and that's part of what spawned IT.

IMO, one of the worst offenders in this regard can be found in Leviathan. In Dr. Bryson's office you can find a piece of Sovereign and someone (don't remember if it's EDI or Anne Bryson) says not to worry because it's shielded to prevent indoctrination. If it were so easy to shield against it, why is indoctrination even an issue? I thought the whole point of the menace of indoctrination was that there is no real defense against it.

 

 

If you know what you are looking for it is probably easy to shield against. The issue is you don't always know  when it is happening.  If you know radiation is there you can counteract it. But if you have no idea the radiation exists then you can't do anything about it and you get radiation poisoning.

 

My idea why Shepard doesn't get indoctrinated is because of the cybernetic implants in his mind from his reconstruction.  TIM would know about indotrication and would look for ways to get around it or control it. It showed in ME3 how he controlled it with his forces.  Most likely in ME2 he made it so Shepard was resistant to it compared to a normal man. That way he could actually fight the Reapers.

[gothpunkboy89]

Also... knowing the results of Lawson's work is why it doesn't make any sense why someone as smart as The Illusive Man would inject himself full of reaper nanides, starting the process of huskification.... so that the reapers could control him. :facepalm:   .... da evulz.

 

Because he was indotrinated by the Reapers. The same reason Saren did the same between Virmire and Citadel (or at least implied even though his character model looks the exact same)   He thought he had the power to control the Reapers and their tech so he filled himself with it.  He didn't really but he thought he did.

[MrFob]

If you know what you are looking for it is probably easy to shield against. The issue is you don't always know  when it is happening.  If you know radiation is there you can counteract it. But if you have no idea the radiation exists then you can't do anything about it and you get radiation poisoning.

 

My idea why Shepard doesn't get indoctrinated is because of the cybernetic implants in his mind from his reconstruction.  TIM would know about indotrication and would look for ways to get around it or control it. It showed in ME3 how he controlled it with his forces.  Most likely in ME2 he made it so Shepard was resistant to it compared to a normal man. That way he could actually fight the Reapers.

 

Saren knew about indoctrination before he ever came close to Sovereign. He even realizes at the end of Revelation that he has to be careful because of what happened to Dr. Quian and the others. He was so worried, that he even set up a research lab to study it. Saren was a lot of things but he certainly wasn't incompetent or sloppy. So how did he get indoctrinated if it's a simple matter of shielding? Why did Rhana Thenoptis' predecessor get indoctrinated despite being very aware of the danger? Why did the guys of "The Project" not shield object rho?

It may be that they developed a shielding method only by the time of ME3 (and apparently after Arrival) but I still think it's all pretty dubious. Also, I think it really takes away from the menace of the reapers because if you can just shield against indoctrination, you could simply take reaper tech (e.g. of defeated reapers, say from Rannoch) and study it. I always thought one of their greatest advantages and menaces was that, even if you defeated one, you could never learn anything about them without running the risk of indoctrination. Leviathan's "shielding" takes even that away.

 

I just hate it when such things get messed with, just to include "a cool little gimmick" that we can look at in that lab, which doesn't even have any relevance for anything at all. It's just there so that Shepard can make a witty comment about it but with that one line, they basically take away a lot of the real coolness that was so carefully established before. Those kinds of easily avoidable things just annoy the hell out of me.

 

As for Shepard, that's a good thought actually. I guess it is not unfeasible that the implants have something to do with Shepard's immunity to indoctrination, whether that was intended by TIM or not. It'll be my new head canon, thanks.

[Dantriges]

Sanctuary .... I mean wouldn't the people going there get a little suspicious when family members started disappearing? Or were they being cared for while certain ones volunteered to donate themselves for some scientific study that could prove beneficial in the fight against the reapers?

 

IIRC they pretend that they move the people to be processed into the inner sanctuary, the real refugee camp, which is more permanent, better equipped or so. they don´t make them disappear at night but hand them a "golden ticket" for the real deal. Ok no one knows that the real deal is getting turned into soap, become a Cerberus goon for Shep to shoot or be part of the experiments.

 

So AFAIK everyone got a "you are approved for your permanent quarters" after some time and then processed with a majority being liquified. 

[MrFob]

IIRC they tell them that they pretend that they move the people to be processed into the inner sanctuary, the real refugee camp, which is more permanent, better equipped or so. they don´t make them disappear at night but hand them a "golden ticket" for the real deal. Ok no one knows that the real deal is getting turned into soap, become a Cerberus goon for Shep to shoot or be part of the experiments.

 

So AFAIK everyone got a "you are approved for your permanent quarters" after some time and then processed with a majority being liquified. 

 

This and also, they even advertise the communications blackout as a security measure against being discovered by the reapers, so it wouldn't be suspicious that relatives and friends never hear from "these lucky ones" again. When you enter Sanctuary, there are a lot of announcements that communication from the inside is not permitted.

[gothpunkboy89]

Saren knew about indoctrination before he ever came close to Sovereign. He even realizes at the end of Revelation that he has to be careful because of what happened to Dr. Quian and the others. He was so worried, that he even set up a research lab to study it. Saren was a lot of things but he certainly wasn't incompetent or sloppy. So how did he get indoctrinated if it's a simple matter of shielding? Why did Rhana Thenoptis' predecessor get indoctrinated despite being very aware of the danger? Why did the guys of "The Project" not shield object rho?

It may be that they developed a shielding method only by the time of ME3 (and apparently after Arrival) but I still think it's all pretty dubious. Also, I think it really takes away from the menace of the reapers because if you can just shield against indoctrination, you could simply take reaper tech (say of defeated reapers, say from Rannoch) and study it. I always thought one of their greatest advantages and menaces was that, even if you defeated one, you could never learn anything about them without running the risk of indoctrination. Leviathan's "shielding" takes even that away.

 

I just hate it when such things get messed with, just include "a cool little gimmick" to look at in that lab, which doesn't even have any relevance to anything at all. It's just there so that Shepard can make a witty comment about it but with that one line, they basically take away a lot of the real coolness that was so carefully established before. Those kinds of easily avoidable things just annoy me a lot.

 

As for Shepard, that's a good thought actually. I guess it is not unfeasible that the implants have something to do with Shepard's immunity, whether that was intended by TIM or not. It'll be my new head canon.

 

 

Eh any time you mention something outside of the ME games the continuity always seems to get a big fuzzy.

 

How ever just because you know something exists doesn't mean you know how to block it. We knew about bacteria at least on some level and how it makes us sick. But we never quite understood how to effectively eliminate it in use to make us healthy again like we do now.

[MrFob]

Eh any time you mention something outside of the ME games the continuity always seems to get a big fuzzy.

 

How ever just because you know something exists doesn't mean you know how to block it. We knew about bacteria at least on some level and how it makes us sick. But we never quite understood how to effectively eliminate it in use to make us healthy again like we do now.

 

It's not the book that breaks continuity, it's that stupid piece of Sovereign in ME3's Leviathan DLC. The book is perfectly in line with the characterization of indoctrination in 99.9% of the games (not to mention that it came out with the first game and established the lore, rather than breaking it).

 

And yea, as I said, they might have invented shields just before/during ME3 but honestly, in that case - and to keep in line with the bacteria allegory - having a piece of Sovereign sitting in Bryson's lab like a piece of art is kind of like having a Petri dish of Salmonella enterica in your kitchen for fun just because you have discovered antibiotics 6 months earlier.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Because he was indotrinated by the Reapers. The same reason Saren did the same between Virmire and Citadel (or at least implied even though his character model looks the exact same)   He thought he had the power to control the Reapers and their tech so he filled himself with it.  He didn't really but he thought he did.

 

But after Virmire, Sovereign started to sense Saren's doubts and so Saren allowed himself to be implanted to strengthen his resolve. It's different than The Illusive Man. Saren had been tooling around on Sovereign for two years. The Illusive Man just goes bat**** stupid after careful planning.... Hmmm... reaper nanides turn people into husks that the reapers control.... we're about ready to control reapers.... maybe I should inject myself full of reaper nanides so I become easy for the reapers to control and turn into a husk.

 

The Illusive Man snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

Kind of like "Yo dawg.... we heard you were making synthetics, so we made a bunch of synthetics to kill you before you made synthetics that would kill you."

 

AFAIK, this happens after Lawson tell him that they've been able to isolate and co-opt the reaper control signal and control groups of reaper troops with their Cerberus signal. Lawson mentioned that they were ready to start trials on an controlling an actual reaper if I recall. Lawson was the one working practically hands on with reaper tech, yet it was The Illusive Man who decided to inject himself full of the nanides and putting himself in the middle of reaper central, where the reaper signal was the strongest. This has to be one of the biggest face palms of the story. Yes it can be hand waved by saying "he's indoctrinated". It's one of the cheapest cop outs of the story, and highlights its anti-technology sub-plot.

 

But Shepard was exposed to Reaper tech just as often as The Illusive Man, had reaper tech in his/her body, and was immune to indoctrination.... unless you believed Indoctrination Theory. 

[themikefest]

If somehow Shepard were to be indoctrinated, Garrus could be indoctrinated as well. He's the only character that is exposed to reaper tech as much as Shepard except the Arrival dlc. 

 

Did Shepard have reaper tech in his/her body?

[aoibhealfae]

The concept of reaper tech itself making people indoctrinated is even more weird. Citadel and Mass Relays were all reaper tech. Thannix cannon was developed by the turian military from Sovereign's corpse. Collectors awarded reaper techs to everyone with the right price. The Illusive Man was crazy enough to raise a dead spectre and her ship to launch a suicide mission so he could get more lovely reaper techs.

 

So... dead reaper could still indoctrinate people. being near dead reaper pieces could indoctrinate people....

 

Indoctrination by itself is space magic. Strange frequency that enters your brain and mess up with your brain so you can be brainwashed and controlled by reapers that was coming from the other side of the galaxy   and since all reapers survive in all ending but one, does that mean the entire galaxy is still doom either way.

[MrFob]

Well, no one ever said that absolutely all reaper tech has to indoctrinate all the time or that the reapers have no control over it (in fact, it is implied that they do control it (at least the speed, which has a trade off with the negative effects). And I guess if a reaper dies with indoctrination mode turned on, it keeps indoctrinating.

 

Granted, in essence it is space magic but given that we can to a very limited extend even wirelessly stimulate a brain with things such as transcranial magnetic stimulation today, I don't think the idea of wirelessly sending subliminal messages directly into the part of the brain that controls someones unconscious reactions is completely unfeasible, at least theoretically speaking (of course there is nowhere near any technology around today to do anything remotely like that but that's why it's scifi).

 

As for the Citadel, ever since Vigil told us that it's a reaper construct in ME1 (back in 2008) my head canon has been that the station does very subtily indoctrinate it's long term inhabitants and prevents them from looking too closely at the secrets of the station. It's the only way I can fathom how any species (and most of all one as curious as the salarians) could possibly inhabit an alien space station (supposedly built by aliens with far superior technology no less) for 2000 (!!!) years without taking it apart completely and retro-engineering every aspect of it.

I mean, these people jump in excitement when they find a little beacon on Eden Prime but they are just sitting on a whole bunch of unexplored areas on a station that they think was built by those protheans?!? How could they not be indoctrinated?

 

It would also explain the councils behavior, which can be a bit ... erratic at times.

[aoibhealfae]

It would also explain the councils behavior, which can be a bit ... erratic at times.

 

No. Its just politicians everywhere. They're a bunch of self-concerned jackasses. Thank you, Udina.

[KrrKs]

About the Sovereign piece in Bryson's lab:

My personal headcanon states that it is a volus made fake, and the shield is just there so none of the buyers actually finds out.

Bonus point for the Volus is, that all of those smart buyers have to pay fees for additional 'necessary' mental check-ups once a quarter.

[Iakus]

 

Well it's a fusion reactor, so the only really radioactive parts are the inside walls of the containment chamber. And I don't think you walk around inside of that. (And if so, THAT doesn't make any sense.)

 

 

It's one of the few missions which requires Shepard to wear a full helmet, so I'm assuming there's some sort of toxins in the air.

[vbibbi]

 

having a piece of Sovereign sitting in Bryson's lab like a piece of art is kind of like having a Petri dish of Salmonella enterica in your kitchen for fun just because you have discovered antibiotics 6 months earlier.

How is that NOT fun?

[SuperJogi]

It's one of the few missions which requires Shepard to wear a full helmet, so I'm assuming there's some sort of toxins in the air.

 

Well the wiki entry says that there are toxic gasses in the air that you have to vent. If that's the mission you were talking about.