1395 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

Someone is really reaching here. Nihlus was in a hot zone. There were still Geth around. Why would he turn off his barrier? There are a few possibities:

 

1. Nihlus' didn't have a barrier because he wasn't high enough level to have one. We know this to be false because of Samara's tale.

 

2. Nihlus' barrier simply failed due to plot reasons needed by the writer. This seems to be very likely. 

 

3. Nihlus was an idiot and turned off his barrier. This considering how badly the story was written, the good is dumb trope - i.e. the Council among others - is also likely. This is the equivalent of watching a zombie movie and hearing someone saying "let's split up." You never split up.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that maximum qualifications for entrance into the "elite" Spectres and into the Alliance military was an IQ of 85. Anything more than that you were considered too intelligent and were consigned to janitorial services. This along with the idea perpetrated that Asari maidens were mostly dancers and mercs. I'm looking at you, Joker. There aren't enough stripper bars and merc bands in the galaxy to provide employment for all those poor Asari maidens.

 

Consider some of the gems our hero spoke: "I will not let fear compromise who I am." "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce." 

[WarGriffin]

 

Someone is really reaching here. Nihlus was in a hot zone. There were still Geth around. Why would he turn off his barrier? There are a few possibities:

 

1. Nihlus' didn't have a barrier because he wasn't high enough level to have one. We know this to be false because of Samara's tale.

 

2. Nihlus' barrier simply failed due to plot reasons needed by the writer. This seems to be very likely. 

 

3. Nihlus was an idiot and turned off his barrier. This considering how badly the story was written, the good is dumb trope - i.e. the Council among others - is also likely. This is the equivalent of watching a zombie movie and hearing someone saying "let's split up." You never split up.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that maximum qualifications for entrance into the "elite" Spectres and into the Alliance military was an IQ of 85. Anything more than that you were considered too intelligent and were consigned to janitorial services. This along with the idea perpetrated that Asari maidens were mostly dancers and mercs. I'm looking at you, Joker. There aren't enough stripper bars and merc bands in the galaxy to provide employment for all those poor Asari maidens.

 

Consider some of the gems our hero spoke: "I will not let fear compromise who I am." "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce." 

 

Its why Shepard and Co can easily Gun down krogan even though... Krogan are suppose to take RIDICULOUS amounts of punishment... in a cutscene barely half a clip... I think Wrex comes the closest with the amount of bullets put into him if you sabotage the cure

 

 

Shields are inconsistently used... I mean Elnora clearly gets a shot off but it bounces of Shepard's shield... I think Kai leng is really the only person who uses a shield to defend himself from gun fire. -Which means kai leng is infact SMARTER then 90% of the cast-

[Heimerdinger]

If I remember correctly the scene when Saren kills Nihlus ends with a fade to black but it's heavily implied that Saren approached from the back and put a round in Nihlus's skull at point blank range. The combat suits sensors detect incoming rounds at high velocity and deflects them, with the actual deflecting happening at around 30-40cm around the character - as seen in many cutscenes. At point blank though..yeah you're dead, shields or no.

 

But it gets more interesting, shields are made up of a power source, emitters, sensors, all built into a combat hard suit. The codex says nothing about more smaller personal devices. Yet we see cases when characters wear plain clothing and still have shields, like Shepard in Citadel DLC. Of course going to a restaurant wearing Terminus armor would look out of place, while going in a dress but with no shields would break gameplay as you would have a difficult section to play through ahead. A compromise had to be made for gameplay's sake.

 

Or, shooting Mordin in the back with the M-6 Carnifex, gameplay wise the Carnifex sucks against shields. Phasic rounds would do the trick but those were cut by the time of ME3. A compromise was made for the sake of a dramatic cutscene.

[MrFob]

 

while going in a dress but with no shields would break gameplay as you would have a difficult section to play through ahead. A compromise had to be made for gameplay's sake.

I actually think having a section without shields would have been pretty cool there and it would have been different. You could also have catered to all those who always say that "being a biotic never makes a difference" because biotic classes could still have had barriers. It's an SP experience, so I think it would have been possible to give a different experience for different classes. A biotic might have torn through this section with ease while a soldier would feel really naked without his suit and weapons. Maybe not for everyone but I would have liked it.

But then, even people like Dr. Kenson in arrival had shields when she was wearing a prisoner's clothes.

And don't get me started on e.g. Jack. I get that she has barriers but why wouldn't she want to have the other layers of protection that come with shields and a hard suit when you are going into combat?

 

But yea, shields are very iffy and I just go with lore/gameplay and sometimes even story compromises. If you think about ti, things like shield strength in Star Trek are also completely arbitrary because they always hold or fail according to what the plot needs (and that's fine, after all, they are ultimately a plot device). With ME's barriers it's just a bit more obvious because we have them as a gameplay mechanic as well.

[Iakus]

I see that now while playing ME1. Seems as powers and projectiles of any kind do health and shield damage. But, when I rushed the hell out of a Geth and knocked it on the floor it mitigated it's shields and only did health damage.

Interesting to know, I always thought the shield itself was coated around your armor and that's why I was able to break that dudes neck no problem.

But what you said makes much more sense...what sH0tgUn jUliA said as well.

You will also see when fighting rachni that their venom attacks will go right through your shields and do straight-up health damage,  Making toxin-resist armor mods a lot more important.

[gothpunkboy89]

 

Someone is really reaching here. Nihlus was in a hot zone. There were still Geth around. Why would he turn off his barrier? There are a few possibities:

 

1. Nihlus' didn't have a barrier because he wasn't high enough level to have one. We know this to be false because of Samara's tale.

 

2. Nihlus' barrier simply failed due to plot reasons needed by the writer. This seems to be very likely. 

 

3. Nihlus was an idiot and turned off his barrier. This considering how badly the story was written, the good is dumb trope - i.e. the Council among others - is also likely. This is the equivalent of watching a zombie movie and hearing someone saying "let's split up." You never split up.

 

I've also come to the conclusion that maximum qualifications for entrance into the "elite" Spectres and into the Alliance military was an IQ of 85. Anything more than that you were considered too intelligent and were consigned to janitorial services. This along with the idea perpetrated that Asari maidens were mostly dancers and mercs. I'm looking at you, Joker. There aren't enough stripper bars and merc bands in the galaxy to provide employment for all those poor Asari maidens.

 

Consider some of the gems our hero spoke: "I will not let fear compromise who I am." "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce." 

 

This is not halo sheilds were it is right up agaisnt the armor. The shielding activates at a certain distance that is how characters are able to fire their guns without activating their own barriers.  How they are able to interact with the world around them without looking like an idiot. The barrier recharging shows how far out it actually is from their body. 

 

If the barrier was always on and always active then you couldn't even have 1 solider pick up another one and carry them away to be injured.

 

Saren put the gun right up against the back of Nihlus's head and pulled the trigger. Far to close for the barrier to activate.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It still doesn't explain The Illusive Man who by canon has kinetic barrier shields built into his suits. Shepard had a Carnifex on the Citadel and it required one bullet to kill TIM. This before we get into boob armor since someone mentioned Jack whose two straps seem to be as effective as Shepard's hard suit.

 

I did not see Saren put the gun right up against the back of Nihlus' head and pull the trigger. That's your head canon and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. The cutscene shows Saren's weapon about 6' behind Nihlus.

[MrFob]

It still doesn't explain The Illusive Man who by canon has kinetic barrier shields built into his suits.

 

Really? Is that in the codex or something? Never came across that tidbit of info.

I mean, as someone said before, since other characters have barriers when wearing normal clothing (at least in gameplay so maybe just gameplay-lore disconnect), I can't remember anything being mentioned specific to TIMs suits. Is that in the Shadow Broker dossiers or something?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's in one of the comics. The Illusive Man is quite paranoid.

[MrFob]

It's in one of the comics. The Illusive Man is quite paranoid.

 

Ahhh, the comics, how I love them.

[themikefest]

It's in one of the comics. The Illusive Man is quite paranoid.

 I'm surprised there were no Cerberus troopers on the Citadel acting as bodyguards when he shows up.

[capn233]

Characters use murder-pistols in cutscenes, and they are powerful enough to penetrate any known kinetic barrier.

[gothpunkboy89]

It still doesn't explain The Illusive Man who by canon has kinetic barrier shields built into his suits. Shepard had a Carnifex on the Citadel and it required one bullet to kill TIM. This before we get into boob armor since someone mentioned Jack whose two straps seem to be as effective as Shepard's hard suit.

 

I did not see Saren put the gun right up against the back of Nihlus' head and pull the trigger. That's your head canon and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion. The cutscene shows Saren's weapon about 6' behind Nihlus.

 

Well much like the Saren in ME 1 the way it should have gone down is though R or P options that get him to kill himself. Obviously setting the game up so if you lack the necessary R or P level to do that the game auto ends at that point wouldn't have been well received by the gaming community.  But is no more ridiculous then anything else that happens both to and from Shepard and his team.

 

In a vacuum boob straps would be just as effective as a hard suit as long as you don't have extreme temperature variations or skin based toxicity to deal with. Human skin is surprisingly durable and the idea that in a vacuum you would pop like a fleshy balloon is very mistaken.  Now would it be as effective as his armor in a fight or to deal with a toxic atomosphere? About as useful as Thane's outfit. In fact the only character who's outfit would be useful against bullets and toxic atmosphere besides Shep is Wrex/Grunt, Garrus, Ashley and Kaden. The rest of the team across all the games leave much to be desired in that area.

 

There is no measurement of how far behind his head it was held.

 

Suffice to say how ever your average assault rifle in that game would have to be at least 6 inches as well. Particularly in the firing position with said rifle. Even holding a hand gun in proper gun firing position would have the gun more then 6 inches from me. The barriers react to a certain kinetic speed before deploying. The barrier would have to be farther then that to prevent it from activating and screwing up your own shots.

 

If it is in fact 6 inches then that is close enough to by pass the barrier that was created to stop gun fire shot at a distance. Because again the barrier would need to be far enough out to intercept any incoming rounds. But far enough away to not trigger their own barrier when they fire their guns.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well much like the Saren in ME 1 the way it should have gone down is though R or P options that get him to kill himself. Obviously setting the game up so if you lack the necessary R or P level to do that the game auto ends at that point wouldn't have been well received by the gaming community.  But is no more ridiculous then anything else that happens both to and from Shepard and his team.

 

In a vacuum boob straps would be just as effective as a hard suit as long as you don't have extreme temperature variations or skin based toxicity to deal with. Human skin is surprisingly durable and the idea that in a vacuum you would pop like a fleshy balloon is very mistaken.  Now would it be as effective as his armor in a fight or to deal with a toxic atomosphere? About as useful as Thane's outfit. In fact the only character who's outfit would be useful against bullets and toxic atmosphere besides Shep is Wrex/Grunt, Garrus, Ashley and Kaden. The rest of the team across all the games leave much to be desired in that area.

 

There is no measurement of how far behind his head it was held.

 

Suffice to say how ever your average assault rifle in that game would have to be at least 6 inches as well. Particularly in the firing position with said rifle. Even holding a hand gun in proper gun firing position would have the gun more then 6 inches from me. The barriers react to a certain kinetic speed before deploying. The barrier would have to be farther then that to prevent it from activating and screwing up your own shots.

 

If it is in fact 6 inches then that is close enough to by pass the barrier that was created to stop gun fire shot at a distance. Because again the barrier would need to be far enough out to intercept any incoming rounds. But far enough away to not trigger their own barrier when they fire their guns.

 

Wrong again about the vacuum.... See this article in the Scientific American. Google is your friend. While survival is possible it probably isn't to your liking. You really need a pressurized suit. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, pardon the pun.

 

The way the game is set up is that Mass Effect 3 is the best place to start. If you fail to kill The Illusive Man in the renegade scene, Shepard dies because The Illusive Man shoots her, and you get critical mission failure, the game ends, you need to reload from the previous autosave and redo the scene. Only the paragon scene has TIM kill himself. 

 

Still, with Saren, we only have the cut scene to go by. You are going by head canon. Let's face the facts. In Drew Karpyshyn's own novels, kinetic barriers only work when he wants them to work. They don't work when he doesn't want them to work. Yet they are part of ME lore. They are plot devices and a game play mechanic. Nihlus is a case when the writer doesn't want them to work. The Illusive Man was another case where they it wasn't supposed to work. Also if you killed Mordin in ME3, it only took one bullet - his kinetic barrier didn't work via plot. Another death via plot was when the person closing the door in the Suicide Mission took one to the head - logic would dictate that they did not have their barrier turned off. 

 

If you need a character to die, you don't go through all the details like barriers getting taken down. You write a good death scene. Thus, these things like kinetic barriers are a game play mechanic or plot device. 

[Iakus]

Characters use murder-pistols in cutscenes, and they are powerful enough to penetrate any known kinetic barrier.

Murder pistols.  I must remember that term 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes, murder pistols. Shepard can use one on Ashley or Kaidan in ME3 as well. 

 

But there were problems with Shepard's murder pistol.... the one that killed Anderson and The Illusive Man..... it could not wound a Keeper. You remember the Keepers, right? They were supposed to simply disintegrate if you so much as disturbed them in ME1 so there was this "Please do not disturb the Keepers." But Saren's pistol blew one apart in ME1. Yours could not harm one in ME3. Inconsistencies like this gave rise to Indoctrination Theory. Or the idea that Shepard never made it to the Citadel in the first place and was instead laying on the ground in London bleeding out, having this dream as his/her last nightmare before perishing. 

[themikefest]

Yes, murder pistols. Shepard can use one on Ashley or Kaidan in ME3 as well. 

 

But there were problems with Shepard's murder pistol.... the one that killed Anderson and The Illusive Man..... it could not wound a Keeper. You remember the Keepers, right? They were supposed to simply disintegrate if you so much as disturbed them in ME1 so there was this "Please do not disturb the Keepers." But Saren's pistol blew one apart in ME1. Yours could not harm one in ME3. Inconsistencies like this gave rise to Indoctrination Theory. Or the idea that Shepard never made it to the Citadel in the first place and was instead laying on the ground in London bleeding out, having this dream as his/her last nightmare before perishing. 

Yep

 

Another one is seeing that Alliaince ship fire 2 shots blowing off two legs of the capital ship in ME3, while the Alliance couldn't damage Sovereign at all until its shields were disabled and only then its the itsy-bitsy-puny SR1 that destroys the reaper in ME1

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yep

 

Another one is seeing that Alliaince ship fire 2 shots blowing off two legs of the capital ship in ME3, while the Alliance couldn't damage Sovereign at all until its shields were disabled and only then its the itsy-bitsy-puny SR1 that destroys the reaper in ME1

 

Because... heroism.

[gothpunkboy89]

Wrong again about the vacuum.... See this article in the Scientific American. Google is your friend. While survival is possible it probably isn't to your liking. You really need a pressurized suit. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, pardon the pun.

 

The way the game is set up is that Mass Effect 3 is the best place to start. If you fail to kill The Illusive Man in the renegade scene, Shepard dies because The Illusive Man shoots her, and you get critical mission failure, the game ends, you need to reload from the previous autosave and redo the scene. Only the paragon scene has TIM kill himself. 

 

Still, with Saren, we only have the cut scene to go by. You are going by head canon. Let's face the facts. In Drew Karpyshyn's own novels, kinetic barriers only work when he wants them to work. They don't work when he doesn't want them to work. Yet they are part of ME lore. They are plot devices and a game play mechanic. Nihlus is a case when the writer doesn't want them to work. The Illusive Man was another case where they it wasn't supposed to work. Also if you killed Mordin in ME3, it only took one bullet - his kinetic barrier didn't work via plot. Another death via plot was when the person closing the door in the Suicide Mission took one to the head - logic would dictate that they did not have their barrier turned off. 

 

If you need a character to die, you don't go through all the details like barriers getting taken down. You write a good death scene. Thus, these things like kinetic barriers are a game play mechanic or plot device. 

 

http://imagine.gsfc....ace_travel.html

 

The issues brought up in your link are directly related to lack of breathable air for the body(ies) during their time in a vacuum/near vacuum. With access to a source of oxygen like say a breather mask like it shows her having she would be able to survive out in a vacuum naked. Now would it be the most comfortable feeling? Probably not but there are people who regularly dive and swim in frozen ponds in only their swimming trunks and people who can sit in saunas for 5+ hours at a time and survive.

 

The issue which I pointed out would be ex poser to elements like UV radiation which would cook her like a microwave or toxic elements. For instance that what was it ammonia or chlorine based planet were you have at activate the beacons to find your way out. But a lot of that depends on if you consider side missions cannon or not. Because unless I've forgotten something in no mission in ME2 or ME3 for the main story line missions are any character save Shep exposed to a complete vacuum. First is during collector attack which again Shep in full hard suit. Second is when his suit is ruptured and he slowly dies of asphyxiation. The other when Shep again in full suit walked to the Geth Dreadnought. The rest of the main story missions take place in areas that have an atmosphere and are livable in term of exposer to elements.

 

And your statement is the same amount of head cannon as mine. When they work they clearly create an entire barrier when triggered by fast moving objects. The entire point of the barrier is to prevent someone from shooting at you. Gun fights rarely happen at near point blank range. Particularly military fights. Maybe I just didn't hear about it but I don't seem to remember any stories about insurgents in the Middle East running up and firing point blank on soldiers. Or waiting in door ways then shooting them just as they get next to them like you see in CoD. Same applies to Vietnam, Korea or WW II. Oh sure there were moments when storming bunkers and such. But that was because they bunkers were created to see and kill advancing enemies from a distance.  And even then the more common method of clearing out bunkers were old fashion grenades or even flame throwers.  But they were the exception rather then the rule.

 

Point blank range you wouldn't even need a future space gun to kill someone. A sharpened rock could kill someone unless they were fully armored. And then a knife towards the throat or other joints would allow you to do the job anyways. Those points being the weakest for needs of mobility.

 

Saren killing Niahlus was near point blank range his barrier wouldn't have activated in time this is echoed when Saren kills himself.

 

Mordin was ignored because the scene called or it. Just like every other book, TV show, Movie. And ignoring it and the over all scene it creates is well worth the temporary suspension of game physics. 

 

TIM make sense as well. It was fairly obvious he was completely indoctrinated at that point. Like wise rather then leave Shepard to die of blood loss the AI wanted to talk to Shepard. Setting TIM up so he would be killed and controlling him to that point it all makes sense.  The man thought he could control the Reapers. That he had the ultimate power in his hands. Why would you need a barrier with that kind of power? The first thing he does is take control of Shep and Anderson preventing them from doing anything.  You seem to miss every point of context in that moment.

 

I tend to not take novels seriously when tied into games. More often then not they don't pay but lip service to the actual game(s). Runescape novels anything created for Halo after Bungie left.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Really?

 

[Callidus Thorn]

40 pages?

 

Now I'm not saying the first game was perfect, but there's so much wrong with the latter two that I'm headcanoning them out of existence. Shepard was just in some Cerberus lab somewhere dosed up on psychotropics with an Asari playing with his brain, or something along those lines. I think it might actually make more sense that way.

[MrFob]

40 pages?

 

Now I'm not saying the first game was perfect, but there's so much wrong with the latter two that I'm headcanoning them out of existence. Shepard was just in some Cerberus lab somewhere dosed up on psychotropics with an Asari playing with his brain, or something along those lines. I think it might actually make more sense that way.

 

Yes, 40 pages but in all fairness, the vast majority of stuff we are talking about in this thread are very minor details that are just fun to think about. They don't in any way impact the quality of the general story or the universe at all IMO.

 

Those (in my perception) more serious issues are far less in number but far worse in their impact and they are often less of a direct logical inconsistency but rather more of a narrative inelegance. That's my take on it anyway.

[Callidus Thorn]

Yes, 40 pages but in all fairness, the vast majority of stuff we are talking about in this thread are very minor details that are just fun to think about. They don't in any way impact the quality of the general story or the universe at all IMO.

 

Those (in my perception) more serious issues are far less in number but far worse in their impact and they are often less of a direct logical inconsistency but rather more of a narrative inelegance. That's my take on it anyway.

 

True enough, but get enough of them together, and you start to have a problem.

 

And some of the things that don't make sense(ME3 ending, ME2, and so on) are pretty big things that really screw things up.

[gothpunkboy89]

Really?

 

 

 

So which part are you face palming exactly? Your link ever example is the subject being in a completely oxygen deprived zones. A pressured space suit depressurizes in a near vacuum is exactly what it sounds like. The loss of air in his suit as it leaves putting him in an oxygen deprived environment.

 

Barriers would not be skin tight. There would be a gap were a gun could go though and avoid the barrier effect. Mordin is the only one that is truly a bypass all logic for what happened. Nihlus was shot at near point blank range close enough to by pass the barrier. TIM had everything he was working for. The ability to control their indoctrination effect as well as control of the Reapers. But at the same time the AI obviously wanted something from Shep. TIM rushing at you for no reason even though he has you literally in his power makes no sense unless the AI who was really controlling him wanted you alive. If TIm is as integrated with Reaper tech as it looks like he is. Over riding a kinetic barrier isn't a surprise move for them. Particularly it could simply tell him to not bother with barrier.

 

And I stand by book statement. Even when you strip away game play elements that only exist for game play purposes fixing it to the game or basing it on the game as a prequel/squeal always screws things up.  The Kilo 5 trilogy was suppose to be a equals from Halo 3 into Halo 4 and manages to take everything Halo and wipe their ass with it. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Here's the information on survival in space without a pressure suit from NASA:

 

1) Would you explode? No. Your skin is too strong for that to happen.

2) Would your blood boil? That depends, but the water in your body would. As long as your blood was circulating it would keep the water from boiling. This would last about a minute. Then the water in your blood would start to boil in your extremities like your exposed eyes, tongue, and it would get worse from there.

3) Could you survive? Yes, but for only about a minute.

 

This is the short answer. "Not the most comfortable feeling" is a gross understatement and facepalm worthy. You would need more than a mask the women were wearing. That was ridiculous. Your suit would need to be pressurized to a minimum of 4.3 psia. The question is this: if all we need is a mask, why does NASA spend money on those expensive space suits? Because they are necessary to survive in a vacuum. Boob armor doesn't work.

 

Regarding what the Starchild knew at the time is your pure head canon. Unless you're going by the "I dream of Harby with the light brown hair" stuff. And that plays right into Indoctrination Theory, doesn't it, unless Shepard really was dreaming of the vent boy, the only chiid in the entire Mass Effect Universe.... who just happened to look just like Starbrat.... But I get it... artistic integrity.... and resources. But what if I told you that Shepard made Batarians drink poison; told Asari vendors to dump her Krogan lover; shoved an Eclipse Merc out a window; interrogated a sick Batarian and let him die, then looted his apartment; beat the crap out of Elias Kelham, then shot Joram Talid; destroyed Maelon's data; destroyed the Heretic base; killed Wrex; killed the Rachni Queen; let the Geth die; sabotaged the genophage cure; shot Ashley. Does this sound like a Shepard who would care about a child dying? I didn't think so. What if The Illusive Man had and Shepard killed each other and Anderson somehow survived and made it up the elevator instead? Or doesn't being born in London count for anything? That was a possibility at that point. So you can't say that what was controlling The Illusive Man wanted something from Shepard then because then you make Shepard into a Mary Sue instead of a bad ass. 

 

Face the facts. You just want things everything to make sense. You want to believe. But there are too many holes in the story. Too many things that don't make sense. And you can't toss out the books because the first book predates the first game. You can, however, toss out the last book. The comics? Unfortunately all this stuff is considered Mass Effect canon. You can't cherry pick your lore.