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Why are people so opposed to Divine Leliana?


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#226
Xilizhra

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Because her ending is a badly written mess that complete ignores the realities of human character in favor of a feel good ending by suggesting a single person can, in the space of a few years, end two thousand years of ethnic conflict.
Quite frankly, it's an insult to one's intelligence and belongs in a children's show, not a series that claims the title of Dark Fantasy.

It's funny how people get angry about endings they don't play. I also don't think Inquisition made a claim to be dark fantasy.



#227
Marcus_Brody

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I surprise how many peoples seem to missed some key word on all ending especially Leliana ending.

 

It's not all out Disney like peoples claimed, I feel like some of them just want it to be total cluster_uck because they don't

agree with Mages freedom. 

 

She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong.

 

Notice "for now"? It's mean a possibility that some revolt might happen in the future (as all other candidate) 

 

And it's not that hard to insert some made-up logic in there. Chantry just recover from disaster, they are not strong and unite. 

It's possible that Leliana can easily persuade each factions to play along with her. She was a bard and spymaster after all.

 

Also, some dialog from Chantry NPC in game suggest that not all of them are agree with Circle solution. Even Mother Giselle

seem to be conflict about it.

 

For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

 

"For a moment" Clearly that means a possibility that acceptance for Mages is not guarantee in long terms.

 

I can give a reasons why each candidate for The Divine didn't work as well but that irrelevant from what I'm trying to said.

 

The things is all ending will make-sense or not is entirely subjective. Peoples just fill up their reasons to support their ideals, to

weakened candidate they don't like or to strengthen their choice of Divine. 

You are right. I think there is no good ending. We will see in the next games, but things are going to get bad sonner than later.

What I find funny is that all these discussions only take into account templars and mages, what about the remaining 99,9% of the population? Mages and templars can go to hell after what they did in the Hinterlands.



#228
Bayonet Hipshot

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I am not opposed to Leliana as Divine Victoria. Never have been.

 

Additionally, why do people care so much about the choices the other people make in their individual playthroughs ? Looking for validations and acceptance for the choices you made in a virtual interactive entertainment ? Looking to form a tribe based on the decisions we made in a video game ?

 

*Disgusted noise*

 

It is your game, it is your character, and it is your playthrough. So make your choices.

 

As for how happy or how terrible the epilogue slides are, this is Bioware. They make things up and retcon things or whitewash them as they go along.

 

Tis' best to make a decision in game that is in sync with that particular character that you are roleplaying and face the full consequences of those decisions later. That is the point of a Role Playing Game. 


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#229
TheKomandorShepard

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It's funny how people get angry about endings they don't play. I also don't think Inquisition made a claim to be dark fantasy.

It is funny considering that i still remember you were arguing about choices other people were making in their pt and that you wanted pro-templars path removed.

 

 

I am not opposed to Leliana as Divine Victoria. Never have been.

 

Additionally, why do people care so much about the choices the other people make in their individual playthroughs ? Looking for validations and acceptance for the choices you made in a virtual interactive entertainment ? Looking to form a tribe based on the decisions we made in a video game ?

 

*Disgusted noise*

 

It is your game, it is your character, and it is your playthrough. So make your choices.

 

As for how happy or how terrible the epilogue slides are, this is Bioware. They make things up and retcon things or whitewash them as they go along.

 

Tis' best to make a decision in game that is in sync with that particular character that you are roleplaying and face the full consequences of those decisions later. That is the point of a Role Playing Game. 

Except that no one argues against making choice people argue about ridiculous outcome of that choice.  



#230
MisterJB

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Four times I guess. But I think you're underestimating the impact of the mages' aid during Blights. Sure nothing happened at then, but by the time of Inquisition, people are starting to realise the aid that the mages have provided and the deeds they have done. Changing people's attitudes is not necessarily a single event, it's a series of them which leadsarrow-10x10.png people to think that maybe a change is in order. Each Blight is another stepping stone on the path to mage acceptance with the events of Inquisition (possibly) being the culmination.

Finally I think you're missing the fact that Leliana's endings are always a little vague with little phrases like "for now" or "for the moment". There's nothing to say that conflict can't arise in the future.

 

Edit: I thought I'd just add that it really comes back to your point about 1000yr old ethnic conflicts not being solved in a matter of days, weeks or even months. It's taken hundreds of years for mages to reach the point where they actually have supporters. These didn't come out of nowhere, they're the result of years of mages proving that they can help. Thus this change has been coming for a while now. Remember when Beatrix claimed that change is coming? It's because she saw the path that Thedas was heading for.

Public approval is not a cumulative points system. The mages don't win ten points here, twenty there and, when they reach a hundred points, they are accepted.

Rather, it's something closer to this: mages help with a Blight or a war and, for a time, there is goodwill and they are granted concessions as reward. But, eventually, life moves on and people forget (much like what happens with the Grey Wardens). In the meantime, there are magical related incidents which raise tensions.

In Asunder, Wynne was nearly lynched in a bar and she had helped defeat the Bligth scarcely ten years ago. In Inquisition, all cities in Southern Thedas have closed their doors to the mages besides Redcliff and, eventually, they do too.

Off the top of my head, I recall three War Table missions where we have to rescue mages from normal people.


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#231
Addai

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Public approval is not a cumulative points system. The mages don't win ten points here, twenty there and, when they reach a hundred points, they are accepted.

Rather, it's something closer to this: mages help with a Blight or a war and, for a time, there is goodwill and they are granted concessions as reward. But, eventually, life moves on and people forget (much like what happens with the Grey Wardens). In the meantime, there are magical related incidents which raise tensions.

In Asunder, Wynne was nearly lynched in a bar and she had helped defeat the Bligth scarcely ten years ago. In Inquisition, all cities in Southern Thedas have closed their doors to the mages besides Redcliff and, eventually, they do too.

Off the top of my head, I recall three War Table missions where we have to rescue mages from normal people.

This doesn't account for the effect of the Chantry's anti-mage rhetoric fueling that hatred. It's partly ideology at work, not just circumstance. The Circles created most of the problems they try to fix, which is how political power blocs always work pretty much- organizations have to perpetuate themselves, so they foster conditions that make them seem vital so that they can then step in and save the day. Solas points this out in some of his dialogue with Cassandra.

 

As for the Divine endings, we know they're all going to end up in about the same place, with new conflicts, or else there won't be a story to tell.



#232
Jaison1986

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Public approval is not a cumulative points system. The mages don't win ten points here, twenty there and, when they reach a hundred points, they are accepted.

Rather, it's something closer to this: mages help with a Blight or a war and, for a time, there is goodwill and they are granted concessions as reward. But, eventually, life moves on and people forget (much like what happens with the Grey Wardens). In the meantime, there are magical related incidents which raise tensions.

In Asunder, Wynne was nearly lynched in a bar and she had helped defeat the Bligth scarcely ten years ago. In Inquisition, all cities in Southern Thedas have closed their doors to the mages besides Redcliff and, eventually, they do too.

Off the top of my head, I recall three War Table missions where we have to rescue mages from normal people.

 

You forget the grey wardens disappear after the blight ends. Their unwillingness to get involved in anything not darkspawn related is the reason everyone forgets about them.

Feel free to disbelieve the ending, but you can't use that argument were the mages are conscripts and they remain with the Inquisition.



#233
Fiery Phoenix

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Because her ending is a badly written mess that complete ignores the realities of human character in favor of a feel good ending by suggesting a single person can, in the space of a few years, end two thousand years of ethnic conflict.
Quite frankly, it's an insult to one's intelligence and belongs in a children's show, not a series that claims the title of Dark Fantasy.

I must have missed the part where the series claimed to be dark fantasy. If it is, I would say Inquisition does a poor job reflecting the fact.



#234
Eliastion

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This doesn't account for the effect of the Chantry's anti-mage rhetoric fueling that hatred. It's partly ideology at work, not just circumstance. The Circles created most of the problems they try to fix, which is how political power blocs always work pretty much- organizations have to perpetuate themselves, so they foster conditions that make them seem vital so that they can then step in and save the day. Solas points this out in some of his dialogue with Cassandra.(...)

While I agree to some extent, you forget that it really doesn't matter - even if it was only Chantry propaganda (and that's indeed the whole exposure most people seem to have to magic) this doesn't change the fact that we're talking about mostly successful propaganda. Add to this the fact that shaping people's attitudes is a long-term project. Sudden change in tone would require quite a long time to settle in, especially since the Chantry itself isn't just Divine's loudspeaker: local mothers and sisters have tremendous influence over what exactly they preach.

The last part can be easily proven - just take a look at Chantry in different countries. Nevarra doesn't burn its dead, for example - they bury them in tombs and have lots of burial-related magical practice on top of that. In Orlais there explicitly is no chantry art featuring Sathran, but a not-that-long trip east and here you go. And these are only the most obvious cases - I think we can safely assume that Chantry has lots of inertia and some things that seem only natural in national branches would be considered nothing short of heretic  in Val Royeaux. The Chantry just does his best to pretend it's not the case lest the people start questioning what's the purpose of having Chant of Light sung from every corner of the world if each corner has its own melody ;) 



#235
Eliastion

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I must have missed the part where the series claimed to be dark fantasy. If it is, I would say Inquisition does a poor job reflecting the fact.

I think scripted failure to save your friend and cousin from getting raped by a noble (who then tries to bribe you into leaving her and other women to him) in prologue to the first installment of the series establishes "dark fantasy" feel rather solidly.



#236
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*

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Oh, that was actually my fault. It was I that assumed you were a female. My bad. A lot of your posts just come off as kind of bitchy and petty (perfect example in bold above).

 

Now, I am definitely not saying that all females hold these characteristics at all, because a vast majority of them do not. 

 

Damn, son. I don't even have to address you anymore. I'll just have Harley take out the trash.


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#237
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I must have missed the part where the series claimed to be dark fantasy. If it is, I would say Inquisition does a poor job reflecting the fact.

 

DA:O yes. DA:I not so much. DA2 was in this weird place where all the 'dark fantastical stuff' crossed Hawke's path like 13 black cats, so it ended up being unbalanced. IMO.



#238
raging_monkey

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Yay rhetoric time

#239
Sus3an

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I didn't want Leliana as Divine because her ideas were very idealistic and unrealistic. I knew she would kill anyone who didn't agree with her to make things the way she said they should be. Her as Divine was a terrible idea. I wanted Vivenne, practical and capable, but I got Leliana because I offered and alliance to the mages instead of conscripting them. (replaying that now). 

 

 



#240
Lumix19

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Public approval is not a cumulative points system. The mages don't win ten points here, twenty there and, when they reach a hundred points, they are accepted.

Rather, it's something closer to this: mages help with a Blight or a war and, for a time, there is goodwill and they are granted concessions as reward. But, eventually, life moves on and people forget (much like what happens with the Grey Wardens). In the meantime, there are magical related incidents which raise tensions.

In Asunder, Wynne was nearly lynched in a bar and she had helped defeat the Bligth scarcely ten years ago. In Inquisition, all cities in Southern Thedas have closed their doors to the mages besides Redcliff and, eventually, they do too.

Off the top of my head, I recall three War Table missions where we have to rescue mages from normal people.

I think you're twisting my point. Of course it's not a cumulative point system but the Blights aren't forgotten. In fact they can be held up as great examples, during the time of the Inquisition, as to why mages deserve acceptance. 1000 years ago nobody would have ever thought that mages deserve acceptance, now by the age of Inquisition, thanks to things like the mage contribution to the Blights etc., people like Leliana do support the mages and can hold up these incidents as reasons for why mages should be accepted. How do you think people came to accept mages? It was because the mages have built a case through these events. Sure the Blights might not create any substantial change during the time, but it's always going to be part of history and it's always going to be an example that the mages can hold up and say "we deserve to be accepted". People look at that history, and the mages that they come into contact with, and think "why don't people accept mages? They've done so much to help". That's why this change has long been coming. And that is what Leliana is pushing for. Sure it's controversial. But the case is there.

One must take the mages' rejection in both Asunder and Inquisition as simple backlash after Anders and the Conclave. But by allowing the mages to help you draw a distinction between Tevinters, like Corypheus and the Venatori, and Southern mages like the rebels aiding the Inquisition.

As I said before, this did not happen overnight. It took a thousand years of good deeds by the mages to atone for the "sins" of the Ancient Tevinter Imperium and even then it's still a precarious and conflicted thing. The case, I can't stress this analogy enough, is there.

 

Edit: The other point that I think is fundamental here, but may have gotten lost in the wall of text, is the idea that mages now have sympathisers and supporters like Leliana and Mother Giselle. 1000 years ago when the Tevinter Imperium fell do you think anybody felt that way about mages? I doubt it. But by the time of Inquisition the good deeds of the mages have shown the world, that perhaps mages aren't that bad. So by this time there are actually people willing to push for mage acceptance aside from mages themselves. In that chaotic time after the Circles were formed I doubt anybody was willing to do so. 1000 years of change my friend.



#241
Akkos

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I didn't want Leliana as Divine because her ideas were very idealistic and unrealistic. I knew she would kill anyone who didn't agree with her to make things the way she said they should be. Her as Divine was a terrible idea. I wanted Vivenne, practical and capable, but I got Leliana because I offered and alliance to the mages instead of conscripting them. (replaying that now). 

 

This time conscript the mages, that way there will not be any resistance, and less uprising.

 

Or just side with the templars, not all rebel mages joined the Venetori.



#242
Lumix19

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I didn't want Leliana as Divine because her ideas were very idealistic and unrealistic. I knew she would kill anyone who didn't agree with her to make things the way she said they should be. Her as Divine was a terrible idea. I wanted Vivenne, practical and capable, but I got Leliana because I offered and alliance to the mages instead of conscripting them. (replaying that now). 

Vivienne is also power-hungry and ambitious. I'm not sure I want someone like that as Divine.



#243
Akkos

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Vivienne is also power-hungry and ambitious. I'm not sure I want someone like that as Divine.

 

Vivienne is self-serving, ambitious, power-hungry-...... So are we all as long as it benefit us. But that is her as a person, not what she is going to do as a divine.



#244
Bad King

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I must have missed the part where the series claimed to be dark fantasy. If it is, I would say Inquisition does a poor job reflecting the fact.

 

The series isn't dark fantasy - only DA:O, and even that wasn't universally dark.



#245
Bad King

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Because her ending is a badly written mess that complete ignores the realities of human character in favor of a feel good ending by suggesting a single person can, in the space of a few years, end two thousand years of ethnic conflict.
Quite frankly, it's an insult to one's intelligence and belongs in a children's show, not a series that claims the title of Dark Fantasy.

 

From her ending when hardened:"Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral."

 

I'm not sure what children's shows you've been watching!


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#246
Akkos

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From her ending when hardened:"Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral."

 

I'm not sure what children's shows you've been watching!

 

Seriously? ......., "For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas."

 

People who believes this need to stop watching Disney channel - Frozen.



#247
Lumix19

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Vivienne is self-serving, ambitious, power-hungry-...... So are we all as long as it benefit us. But that is her as a person, not what she is going to do as a divine.

She centers all power on her. That doesn't strike you as slightly suspicious? I just don't trust her. Of all of them she seems to have too few ideals and far too much ambition for my taste.

Seriously? ......., "For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas."

People who believes this need to stop watching Disney channel - Frozen.

First note the "for the moment". Second I'll refer you to my above post. The ending may be happy but I don't think it's so out of the blue as to be unrealistic.

#248
Bad King

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Seriously?

 

Yes seriously - the quote I just posted is straight out of the epilogue. In what children's shows does blood run through halls? Leliana swiftly and violently puts down those in opposition to her policies, she doesn't assume that everyone would be fine with her reforms like Cass and Viv do (who as a result face protracted conflicts with their enemies).



#249
Akkos

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She centers all power on her. That doesn't strike you as slightly suspicious? I just don't trust her. Of all of them she seems to have too few ideals and far too much ambition for my taste.

 

I think we all know what that means. She is going to get more power than what she has ever gained til now.

 

She is the only real human here. A human who knows how to control her emotions visually speaking. As a divine, she uses actions, not words to power herself people.

 

She had to go that low into the Inquisition, with her exaggerate fashion into muds, desserts and trees to get more power for herself, Right?

 

Absolutely correct.



#250
raging_monkey

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Yay "realism" arguements for a fantasy video game :P
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