626 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

What about those people in Lowtown that hid Anders from anyone that looks for him? That go as far as to die for his sake? The people see only the bad. When did the Chantry assigned an healer to serve the people? Or when Vellana as shown in Awakening, saves an entire village from an darkspawn attack, all on her own. You think the people wouldn't be greatful an mage saved them? If it weren't for an mage, all the people in  Honnleath would have died. Your argument is hollow. The people only see the bad. If mages were allowed to help the people, we would have a lot more of varied opinions.

Four points:

 

First, I specifically mentioned Kirkwall in my other post where I argued that this epilogue would have made more sense there because we were told that opinions were growing more divided within the city.

 

Second, whether people would have more varied opinions or not if we did this or that is irrelevant to whether this epilogue makes sense.

 

Third, those people had a good opinion of Anders because the extent of the contact they had with him was him healing people. Honnleath is a good example, actually. Wilhelm liked to use Shale to scare people. I'd say that after years, the people of that village would have a sourer opinion of him thant the people in Lowtown had of Anders.

Point being, if you want interactions between normal people and mages being exclusively position, you need people like the Chantry, Templars or, before you say it, the Inquisition regulating it. If you just let people live alongside one another, you will have good, yes, but also a lot of bad.

 

Fourth, I quoted that specifically because Lumix19 was claiming a thousand years of history is what leads to mages being accepted and Asunder actually had a commoner saying how doesn't care about history but rather about the incidents mages cause.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Some of my issues with Divine!Leliana...

 

For her radical ideas on the mage issue, she really has no meaningful experience on the matter to make me feel like she is the least bit qualified or knows what she's talking about. I do not agree with her ideas, yet even if I did, I am not sure I would want her representing my position, either. Her position very simplistic, as well. When asked, she basically sums up her stance as ~ some mages are better people than I, yet I'm free and they're not; it's not right. That, IMO, is a really lousy position (I had to laugh a bit when I heard it).

 

Her stance does not stand the test of time, either. Go forward one year into the future through the "In Hushed Whispers" quest -- Leliana is now singing a very different tune ("AH! The mages! They're too strong!! Hold me, mommy =[ "). Compare that to Vivienne's stance -- "Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this reality gets burned." Yeah, I'd say that held up pretty well (say, who wrote Vivienne, and who wrote this quest?).

 

That leads me to my next issue. Leliana is rather weak of faith and cracks easily. I am not a fan of the general mentality that God should swoop down and save people from bad things. If He does exist, then why would he make life easy for you? Adversity is the test of faith. If life were always easy, what would be the point in having it?

 

Then, when you play "In Hushed Whispers," Leliana has just about lost it and refuses to listen to reason over Felix. The other two candidates for Divine are not in better circumstances, having been turned into red-lyrium factories, yet Cass can be found reciting verses from the Chant of Light. Vivienne, who is not particularly religious, responds to the Inquisitor's concern for her by casually saying "Don't worry your pretty head over it." They are stronger individuals, and that is no small part in why I see them as better candidates.

 

Lastly, I do not share people's fascination with Leliana's nug, and think both sword and staff look more divine than an arrow!

 

For the record: I actually do like Leliana, a lot, just not as a politician.

[Boost32]

Yes, it's cherry picking. You would have turned an blind to it if it was an member of the Chantry commiting attrocities instead. What? You think I don't know what Velanna did? I know exactly what she is responsible for. I didn't recruited her out of sympathy for mages, I recruited her because she was useful, and usually, I'm not one to waste resources. But if she couldn't be of use? I would have killed her without an doubt.

No i wouldnt turn blind eye, you shouldnt assume what others people would do.
And I recruited her too, but if she was in the Circles a lot of people would still be alive and their families would not surffer.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The ending doesn't by any means state that there won't still be those who lynch mages and treat them as subhuman monsters. Those prejudices still exist in Leliana's ending, it's just that mages are enjoying more (not total) acceptance then they've ever had. Mage hatred didn't just go away entirely, just like racism didn't go away entirely in the States are the Civil Rights movement. Things are just better then before. 

[raging_monkey]

The ending doesn't by any means state that there won't still be those who lynch mages and treat them as subhuman monsters. Those prejudices still exist in Leliana's ending, it's just that mages are enjoying more (not total) acceptance then they've ever had. Mage hatred didn't just go away entirely, just like racism didn't go away entirely in the States are the Civil Rights movement. Things are just better then before.

shhh fair and reasonable logic is bad...

[jtav]

I'll be honest. As a player, I want Thedas to be a place where only mild, slow gains are possible. It's more fun that way. And Cass as Divine/templars recruited tracks more to my RL politics anyway. Others have different preferences and that's okay.

[ComedicSociopathy]

shhh fair and reasonable logic is bad...

 

Oh sorry. My bad. 

[raging_monkey]

Oh sorry. My bad.

remember there can be no peace on the bsn

[Bad King]

<.<

Despite his journal indicating he was experienced against the undead and that he was going to approach the village the following day?

It just seems unlikely.

 

And perhaps the undead hordes coming from a veil tear were unlike any undead he'd seen before. Who knows, there isn't really enough evidence either way; it's one of those little ambiguities.

[ComedicSociopathy]

 Some of my issues with Divine!Leliana...

 

For her radical ideas on the mage issue, she really has no meaningful experience on the matter to make me feel like she is the least bit qualified or knows what she's talking about. I do not agree with her ideas, yet even if I did, I am not sure I would want her representing my position, either. Her position very simplistic, as well. When asked, she basically sums up her stance as ~ some mages are better people than I, yet I'm free and they're not; it's not right. That, IMO, is a really lousy position (I had to laugh a bit when I heard it).

 

Her stance does not stand the test of time, either. Go forward one year into the future through the "In Hushed Whispers" quest -- Leliana is now singing a very different tune ("AH! The mages! They're too strong!! Hold me, mommy =[ "). Compare that to Vivienne's stance -- "Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this reality gets burned." Yeah, I'd say that held up pretty well (say, who wrote Vivienne, and who wrote this quest?).

 

That leads me to my next issue. Leliana is rather weak of faith and cracks easily. I am not a fan of the general mentality that God should swoop down and save people from bad things. If He does exist, then why would he make life easy for you? Adversity is the test of faith. If life were always easy, what would be the point in having it?

 

Then, when you play "In Hushed Whispers," Leliana has just about lost it and refuses to listen to reason over Felix. The other two candidates for Divine are not in better circumstances, having been turned into red-lyrium factories, yet Cass can be found reciting verses from the Chant of Light. Vivienne, who is not particularly religious, responds to the Inquisitor's concern for her by casually saying "Don't worry your pretty head over it." They are stronger individuals, and that is no small part in why I see them as better candidates.

 

Lastly, I do not share people's fascination with Leliana's nug, and think both sword and staff look more divine than an arrow!

 

For the record: I actually do like Leliana, a lot, just not as a politician.

 

Well, constant torture and being red lyrium and Blight does tend to make people reconsider their views on things. Furthermore, even with all that happening to her she still refused to give in to her interrogators which to me sounds like something a weak individual wouldn't be able to do. 

 

You're right though that her argument for mage freedom was pretty weak and actually managed to be weaker then Vivienne's wolf/sheep metaphor against it. That said, she did work with Divine Justinia as her Left Hand and she was heavily involved with the mage rebellion beginnings in Asunder, so she does seem somewhat educated on the matter. 

[LostInReverie19]

Lately, I've seen posts where people say Leliana will never be divine as she is crazy or her rule is doomed to failure, but her good endings show that not only does her rule not fail but her rule results in Mage freedom and acceptance.

Why do people not like this? I honestly want to know why people seriously isn't like this.

 

I'm not one of those people. Divine Leliana is my favorite. In fact, I'm planning on having hardened Divine Leliana as my canon.  Let the walls of the Chantry run red with blood! 

[FadelessRipley]

 Some of my issues with Divine!Leliana...
 
For her radical ideas on the mage issue, she really has no meaningful experience on the matter to make me feel like she is the least bit qualified or knows what she's talking about. I do not agree with her ideas, yet even if I did, I am not sure I would want her representing my position, either. Her position very simplistic, as well. When asked, she basically sums up her stance as ~ some mages are better people than I, yet I'm free and they're not; it's not right. That, IMO, is a really lousy position (I had to laugh a bit when I heard it).
 
Her stance does not stand the test of time, either. Go forward one year into the future through the "In Hushed Whispers" quest -- Leliana is now singing a very different tune ("AH! The mages! They're too strong!! Hold me, mommy =[ "). Compare that to Vivienne's stance -- "Magic is dangerous, just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets this reality gets burned." Yeah, I'd say that held up pretty well (say, who wrote Vivienne, and who wrote this quest?).
 
That leads me to my next issue. Leliana is rather weak of faith and cracks easily. I am not a fan of the general mentality that God should swoop down and save people from bad things. If He does exist, then why would he make life easy for you? Adversity is the test of faith. If life were always easy, what would be the point in having it?
 
Then, when you play "In Hushed Whispers," Leliana has just about lost it and refuses to listen to reason over Felix. The other two candidates for Divine are not in better circumstances, having been turned into red-lyrium factories, yet Cass can be found reciting verses from the Chant of Light. Vivienne, who is not particularly religious, responds to the Inquisitor's concern for her by casually saying "Don't worry your pretty head over it." They are stronger individuals, and that is no small part in why I see them as better candidates.
 
Lastly, I do not share people's fascination with Leliana's nug, and think both sword and staff look more divine than an arrow!
 
For the record: I actually do like Leliana, a lot, just not as a politician.

I have to say I really like this assessment, and I'm also a huge Leliana fan. Like I say, I see Cass as the most practical choice, epilogues notwithstanding.

One little thing I don't quite agree with: I wouldn't consider Leliana to be "weak of faith" exactly. The religious themes interest me a lot as I'm still quite religious myself. I'm not in favour of completely getting rid of organised religion, but it needs a lot of modern reforms - non of which can simply come overnight, either. Cassandra is the stalwart believer archetype, whereas Leliana is the repentant sinner who found faith in a crisis. Leliana's beliefs have always been a little different and controversial, even since Origins. However her belief the Maker has always been strong. When you find her praying in Haven before that car crash conversion about Justinia - yes, she's angry. But given what's transpired, I think anyone could be forgiven for asking their God "WTF?!!", no? I'm of the opinion doubt is what makes faith stronger, more meaningful.

Leliana for me makes a lot of sense as Divine. Certainly she's the most obvious spiritual successor for Justinia's vision. However, I still prefer Cassandra as I am in favour of gradual change rather than bloody revolution as a rule. Both of these two make sense in different ways and both have their pros and cons.

As for Viv, I honestly can't see how she was even an option. And the status quo prior to the conclave was a disaster. Reinstating that would do Thedas no good IMO. I'd actually be interested to hear the views of the pro-Viv camp, just to see the reasoning behind it. Genuinely - not looking for massive arguments or to bash anyone!! I just honestly don't get it myself.

[CathyMe]

I'm not one of those people. Divine Leliana is my favorite. In fact, I'm planning on having hardened Divine Leliana as my canon.  Let the walls of the Chantry run red with blood! 

Yeah! Hi5 . Although I'm a bit torned between hardened and a Leliana who didn't do her personal quest, since what I truly wanted was to get rid of the parasitic relic that is the chantry.

 

On a more serious point, why do some people keep whining that you can't let mages roam free, when that clearly doesn't happen, they form a hogwarts-like college independent from the chantry and any other religious structures (not all mages believe in the maker)

[MisterJB]

On a more serious point, why do some people keep whining that you can't let mages roam free, when that clearly doesn't happen, they form a hogwarts-like college independent from the chantry and any other religious structures (not all mages believe in the maker)

And to whom exactly is this college beholden to?
No one? Then they answer no authority but their own and thus, no restrictions are placed on them which is the equivalent of "let mages roam free".

[CathyMe]

And to whom exactly is this college beholden to?
No one? Then they answer no authority but their own and thus, no restrictions are placed on them which is the equivalent of "let mages roam free".

Well, I'm no expert but I think countries in DA have some form of rulers and other authorities: like the viscount in Kirkwall, the king/queen in Ferelden, and so on. Mages would have to obey mostly the same laws as regulars citizen and enjoy the same rights, while the college would provide training in magic and help with dangerous mages. Is that really so hard to accept?

[raging_monkey]

Well, I'm no expert but I think countries in DA have some form of rulers and other authorities: like the viscount in Kirkwall, the king/queen in Ferelden, and so on. Mages would have to obey mostly the same laws as regulars citizen and enjoy the same rights, while the college would provide training in magic and help with dangerous mages. Is that really so hard to accept?

MT fans have been going at it for 6 years... its very hard to accept

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well, I'm no expert but I think countries in DA have some form of rulers and other authorities: like the viscount in Kirkwall, the king/queen in Ferelden, and so on. Mages would have to obey mostly the same laws as regulars citizen and enjoy the same rights, while the college would provide training in magic and help with dangerous mages. Is that really so hard to accept?

First of all that won't stop mages from using blood magic or start experiment with thing they shouldn't not to mention good luck when mage will turn into an abomnation in the middle of the city. Not to mention corruption in that College.

[Eliastion]

Well, I'm no expert but I think countries in DA have some form of rulers and other authorities: like the viscount in Kirkwall, the king/queen in Ferelden, and so on. Mages would have to obey mostly the same laws as regulars citizen and enjoy the same rights, while the college would provide training in magic and help with dangerous mages. Is that really so hard to accept?

This, incidentally, is pretty close to what the Circle in Ferelden was some four hundred years ago, in times of Calenhad when Ferelden did have the (or maybe a?) Circle, but also a pretty weak Chantry presence. In fact Calenhad actually managed to strike some deal with them and they supported his claim for the throne - important (though not often talked about) aspect of Calenhad's success in unification of Ferelden (the other important ally being Ash Warriors... who are fervent andrastians, but also pretty much heretics; oh well ).

[Xilizhra]

How about 'believable' then? There have to be elements that we can recognize from real life otherwise we can't connect. The fantasy elements are there to add wonder/horror to the story.

 

In other words: I'm not going to eat something that I can't recognize as food. Fruit salad? Great! Steak tartar? A little unusual, but ok. Fugu sashimi? Risky, but worth it! Shredded paper and vaporub? Nope!

 

DA has consistently showed that intolerance and bigotry are widespread problems, and for them to poof out of existence like that... It's a stretch. 

They're not poofed out of existence, just not horrible problems in practice as of now.

 

 

And to whom exactly is this college beholden to?
No one? Then they answer no authority but their own and thus, no restrictions are placed on them which is the equivalent of "let mages roam free".

The same people that the Chantry and Grey Wardens are beholden to.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

The same people that the Chantry and Grey Wardens are beholden to.

Yeah and it worked very well especially part in that they started create demon army.

 

While chantry can't blow up world.

[Korva]

One little thing I don't quite agree with: I wouldn't consider Leliana to be "weak of faith" exactly. The religious themes interest me a lot as I'm still quite religious myself.

 

I'm an atheist, but fantasy religions can be fascinating to me, so I wish the faith theme, its organizations and its different manifestations in different characters (including our own) had been given a lot more attention in Inquisition.

 

Cassandra is the stalwart believer archetype, whereas Leliana is the repentant sinner who found faith in a crisis. Leliana's beliefs have always been a little different and controversial, even since Origins. However her belief the Maker has always been strong.

 

This is actually something I'm not so sure about because, as I said, Leliana's personality is all over the place and so easily twisted by whoever pulls her strings at the moment. In Origins, all it takes is a few words at a certain time, and that "repentant sinner" is all but cast aside. In Inquisition, Cole describes hardened Leliana as "faith fallen in folly". Also, in Origins Leliana's faith is rather simplistic and naive, basically consisting of "whatever makes me feel good is true". Obviously the Chant isn't the literal word of god, any believer with any education and integrity will admit to that and to the existence of tenets shaped not by whatever remains of Andraste's words but self-serving political machinations. But if I was Andrastian, I'd still boggle at that sort of naivete and wonder if Leliana only believes in the Maker because that happens to be the name of the only god she knows and thus the name of the god she claims her happy-feel-good-"truths" come from, rather than believing in him through deep and honest engagement with the actual tenets, demands and history of the faith.

 

By the time of Inquisition, she seems a little less naive about her beliefs and actually struggles with aspects that she doesn't like instead of handwaving them away, so I suppose her time with Justinia was a bit of a reality check for her and kind of made her faith "mature" somewhat, though the way softened Leliana speaks when considering her Divine candidacy is still full of feel-good-love-for-all. Of course that isn't a bad thing per se, but still feels at odds with that central belief that mortals have ticked the Maker off so much that the entire world is on perpetual probation for sins committed by others ages ago.

[Xilizhra]

This is actually something I'm not so sure about because, as I said, Leliana's personality is all over the place and so easily twisted by whoever pulls her strings at the moment. In Origins, all it takes is a few words at a certain time, and that "repentant sinner" is all but cast aside. In Inquisition, Cole describes hardened Leliana as "faith fallen in folly". Also, in Origins Leliana's faith is rather simplistic and naive, basically consisting of "whatever makes me feel good is true". Obviously the Chant isn't the literal word of god, any believer with any education and integrity will admit to that and to the existence of tenets shaped not by whatever remains of Andraste's words but self-serving political machinations. But if I was Andrastian, I'd still boggle at that sort of naivete and wonder if Leliana only believes in the Maker because that happens to be the name of the only god she knows and thus the name of the god she claims her happy-feel-good-"truths" come from, rather than believing in him through deep and honest engagement with the actual tenets, demands and history of the faith.

Leliana's the only one who has her head on straight, because the Maker as presented by the Chant of Light literally is ****** evil. Abandoning the world twice, unleashing the darkspawn on the world, hurling the souls of the disobedient into some kind of void... Corypheus would have been kinder as a god.

[CathyMe]

First of all that won't stop mages from using blood magic or start experiment with thing they shouldn't not to mention good luck when mage will turn into an abomnation in the middle of the city. Not to mention corruption in that College.

Yeah, cause the templars had no corruption in their ranks   Also, blood mages (i will entertain you and accept that blood magic is inherently evil) and abomination always have and always will exist, and other mages can deal with it, just like templars did before, they just do it with different powers. Much like in real life: just because police exists, doesn't mean that criminals are all gone

Yeah and it worked very well especially part in that they started create demon army.

 

While chantry can't blow up world.

The chantry may not have blown up the world, but has annihilated any culture that disagree with it, has a stated goal of enforcing its view on the entire world and keeps belittling anyone who isn't a human. At least the wardens have stopped blights until now (I may not be a warden-fangirl, but I can see they have their use for now)

[MisterJB]

Well, I'm no expert but I think countries in DA have some form of rulers and other authorities: like the viscount in Kirkwall, the king/queen in Ferelden, and so on. Mages would have to obey mostly the same laws as regulars citizen and enjoy the same rights, while the college would provide training in magic and help with dangerous mages. Is that really so hard to accept?

Yes but that is not even the issue here.

Up until now, the mages were citizens of no country. They fell under the jurisdiction of the Chantry which was both international and independent. Thus, mages lived in places allotted to the Chantry and obeyed their own set of rules which were distinct from the nations that happened to host their Circle.

Breaking away from the Chantry automatically creates a great number of problems. Just to name a few: the Circles either remain propriety of the Chantry which means mages can't live there or the building itself is taken from the Chantry at which point it should reverse to the ownership of the ruler of the nation they're in and the mages are just squatters.

Then, having no nation and yet a staggering amount of firepower, the mages become a threat to the stability of the status quo.

Then, being not beholden to a nation's laws due to mages having no citizenship raises the question of whether a mage can freely move through a country and, if he or she commits who has the authority to met out punishment? The king? The Grand Enchanter?

Those problems already merit extensive negotiations with leaders of states and there is never any mention of the mages intending to do any of that if freed.

Then, the negotiations create even further issues. For instance, which set of rules are the mages going to obey? Will factions feel swearing loyalty to monarchs is no different from the Chantry? How will mages be distributed? Will monarchs seek to control the mages akin to a weapon's race? Will Circles become small states of their own? Protectorates? Do we have to worry about extraditing mages who commit crimes? 

 

We can't just assume all of these issues will be fixed smoothly and there will be an even distribution of mages in order to keep a balance of power. The game's epilogues give us no such indication.

[FadelessRipley]

I'm an atheist, but fantasy religions can be fascinating to me, so I wish the faith theme, its organizations and its different manifestations in different characters (including our own) had been given a lot more attention in Inquisition.
 

 
This is actually something I'm not so sure about because, as I said, Leliana's personality is all over the place and so easily twisted by whoever pulls her strings at the moment. In Origins, all it takes is a few words at a certain time, and that "repentant sinner" is all but cast aside. In Inquisition, Cole describes hardened Leliana as "faith fallen in folly". Also, in Origins Leliana's faith is rather simplistic and naive, basically consisting of "whatever makes me feel good is true". Obviously the Chant isn't the literal word of god, any believer with any education and integrity will admit to that and to the existence of tenets shaped not by whatever remains of Andraste's words but self-serving political machinations. But if I was Andrastian, I'd still boggle at that sort of naivete and wonder if Leliana only believes in the Maker because that happens to be the name of the only god she knows and thus the name of the god she claims her happy-feel-good-"truths" come from, rather than believing in him through deep and honest engagement with the actual tenets, demands and history of the faith.
 
By the time of Inquisition, she seems a little less naive about her beliefs and actually struggles with aspects that she doesn't like instead of handwaving them away, so I suppose her time with Justinia was a bit of a reality check for her and kind of made her faith "mature" somewhat, though the way softened Leliana speaks when considering her Divine candidacy is still full of feel-good-love-for-all. Of course that isn't a bad thing per se, but still feels at odds with that central belief that mortals have ticked the Maker off so much that the entire world is on perpetual probation for sins committed by others ages ago.

.

Well your last point there about the central belief about the Maker - she had never accepted that. That's part of what makes Inquisition so interesting - it certainly ties in more with the belief that the Maker has abandoned the world, rather than Leliana's own convictions. I don't think the concept of "hardening" Leliana in either game was a problem so much in and of itself, rather than the way it was executed. In Origins it was meant to be pointing out she is not an innocent Chantry girl and shouldn't pretend to be, but that doesn't mean she hasn't found faith and isn't a true believer and a better person than she was as a bard. However the dialogue options were pretty awful - basically "sure you loved the fun of killing people! Now change your personality completely so we can go bang that pirate after I commit sacrilege on our holiest relic." :/ Inquisition was even more extreme. She sounds terrifying post-Valence. Hardened Leliana in Inquisition is not what the Warden or Justinia would have wanted. It's almost a complete relapse to her Marjolaine days. I can only imagine what Lady Cousland will make of her!

I get what people have said about her being dependent on her relationships, and it's true to an extent. Leliana has always had many faces - bard, believer, spymaster, Left Hand etc. The extreme changes with hardening or softening her are too much and not perfectly written. A bit more subtlety was definitely needed. I think her softened dialogue says it best - there's a Leliana behind all of that, who is essentially compassionate, faithful and a good person. It's a constant struggle to make sure she doesn't get lost behind the other masks she wears. It was a good premise for the character, but not always brilliantly executed on screen.