626 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Lumix19, that's the point.

 

Why would Neverra actually aloow themselves to be beholden to an independent circle system/ The Chantry circle system existed long before Neverra existed so there was precedent for it. Neverra, IMO, quite rightly would argue that it would be better for it to train its own mages given its history...Neverra doesn't need the independent circle system to train its own mages.

 

But the issue of Leliana isn't just the mages and how her good ending pretty much made the setting more disneylike. It is ALSO things like the fact that a male quanari can now wield significant power in the Chantry. We are talking about a system that LITERALLY for centuries has existed (and these two options  - male and nonhuman nobody seemed to take issue with in the actual game world. You don't see anyone arguing that males should be allowed to be anything other than brothers in the chantry). 

 

I actually see the opening up of the chantry to males as being even a larger switch and one that literally should've had multiple assassination attempts.  This is the biggest threat to the power o the current chantry mothers and one that for pretty much all of southern thedas a cultural change...for a normal person, they probably could be argued to be able to never interact with a mage throughout their life but now their local chantry could be run by a male elf?

 

REALLY?

 

There's also the fact that in Lelian's epilogue we never really hear what happens to Templar training (mte. NOt the templars per se, butt he actual training). I find this one potentially one of the more interesting developments...in a lot of ways, this could actually be worse for mages since there is no longer a visible means of identification of who has templar training.---IF Lelian's epilogue is ever made canon, there should be a lot more soldiers with templar training - for example, Aveline would definitely see to it that kirkwall's guards would have templar training and argue to the viscount that the uards need it.

[Lumix19]

Lumix19, that's the point.
 
Why would Neverra actually aloow themselves to be beholden to an independent circle system/ The Chantry circle system existed long before Neverra existed so there was precedent for it. Neverra, IMO, quite rightly would argue that it would be better for it to train its own mages given its history...Neverra doesn't need the independent circle system to train its own mages.
 
But the issue of Leliana isn't just the mages and how her good ending pretty much made the setting more disneylike. It is ALSO things like the fact that a male quanari can now wield significant power in the Chantry. We are talking about a system that LITERALLY for centuries has existed (and these two options  - male and nonhuman nobody seemed to take issue with in the actual game world. You don't see anyone arguing that males should be allowed to be anything other than brothers in the chantry). 
 
I actually see the opening up of the chantry to males as being even a larger switch and one that literally should've had multiple assassination attempts.  This is the biggest threat to the power o the current chantry mothers and one that for pretty much all of southern thedas a cultural change...for a normal person, they probably could be argued to be able to never interact with a mage throughout their life but now their local chantry could be run by a male elf?
 
REALLY?
 
There's also the fact that in Lelian's epilogue we never really hear what happens to Templar training (mte. NOt the templars per se, butt he actual training). I find this one potentially one of the more interesting developments...in a lot of ways, this could actually be worse for mages since there is no longer a visible means of identification of who has templar training.---IF Lelian's epilogue is ever made canon, there should be a lot more soldiers with templar training - for example, Aveline would definitely see to it that kirkwall's guards would have templar training and argue to the viscount that the uards need it.

I don't think the Mortalitasi actually train Mages. More likely they recruit from the Circle and then train them to be Mortalitasi. It seems to me that instead of Mages being trained by the Circle they would just be trained by the College. Does Leliana actually open the Chantry to males? I know she opened positions to non-humans but I didn't realise she had also allowed males to be priests. But really males are already part of the Chantry and an integral part, if you'll recall Chancellor Roderick. And I find it likely that Leliana was the subject of multiple assassination attempts, but she is a bard so it's not like she doesn't know how to play the Game. If Templar training is discontinued there would be no more lyrium provided by the Chantry. Now perhaps some Templars would get there's from other sources but I can't imagine that being legal. If you just mean the techniques employed by Templars then I would assume that it's not really a secret. The Qunari know about if for example. And there is a codex entry on Mages that deals with how the average fighter should fight them.

[Thermopylae]

I didn't choose Leliana for Devine because I didn't see her as representing a compromise. I tend to believe that productive change tends to be incremental. I find Leliana aesthetically appealing as a figure head, and gives an impression of culture and civilization and serves the group in a useful manner. She would be good at the politics but there are definite "the ends justify the means" in her approaches when at the war table. I find she is a little too easy to use black operations to achieve her objectives, which I find chilling in a leader. It may be that in that particular group that is the kind of operation she manages, but still a lack of compromise with a tendency to use immoral and deadly means is a chilling combination. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of developmental progression to the kind of leaders they become. 

 

Cassandra on the otherhand I dislike more as a person and find her approach brutal but she tends to be more up front with people and represents a kind of compromise between the old and the new. Of course there are multiple times I wonder if this was the best choice but will see. 

[Bleachrude]

What's weird is that there are no true traditionalists as Divine.

 

We did Leliana but both Cassandra and vivienne are as big a reformer as Martin Luther was....Hell, there's a legitimate argument that Vivienne is even a bigger radical choice than Leliana. Asmentioned in the thread, having a mage divine pretty much puts a kibosh on the entire "mages should never rule" mantra.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why should they be forced to go to the College? I'm sure they need training but the Circle wasn't the only place you could get that. And even if they do go to the College there's no need to incarcerate them. If they want to return to their families for a while why shouldn't they? And if you're a fully trained mage why shouldn't you return to your home and live there?

Pfft the magi are weapons.

All this reformation will do is divide the world further. Nation states that rarely if ever had access to magic for military purposes will now have it on demand.

All the destruction of the circle will lead to is a massive military build up.

[raging_monkey]

Pfft the magi are weapons.

All this reformation will do is divide the world further. Nation states that rarely if ever had access to magic for military purposes will now have it on demand.

All the destruction of the circle will lead to is a massive military build up.

hey think of it this way... "realism"

[Lumix19]

Pfft the magi are weapons.
All this reformation will do is divide the world further. Nation states that rarely if ever had access to magic for military purposes will now have it on demand.
All the destruction of the circle will lead to is a massive military build up.

This seems unlikely. Mages as an independent organisation will be able to determine for themselves whether to side with any particular side rather than being forced to fight the Chantry's wars. Nation states that try and conscript Mages living with their families will just sent them into the arms of the College. Mages being free doesn't mean without an organisation to govern and represent them.

[Master Warder Z_]

This seems unlikely. Mages as an independent organisation will be able to determine for themselves whether to side with any particular side rather than being forced to fight the Chantry's wars. Nation states that try and conscript Mages living with their families will just sent them into the arms of the College. Mages being free doesn't mean without an organisation to govern and represent them.

I honestly got a laugh from this.

Seriously kudos, it's been a while since I had a honest to god laugh.

To the point.

Whatever organization, whatever guild, society or cabal they form is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You think conscription is something you can escape in society where a lord can easily declare owned property nationalised? God it's rich, this is a world were rights of the individual are practically non existent outside of nobility and you think the living weapons will have a choice to pick sides?

Amusing but utterly naive.

If they don't wish to have their presence become a matter of national security then they will fight or they will flee either way they remain truly nothing more then a resource to be used.

It is to me yet another side effect of what I dub the Umbrella Complex.

You had the Chantry dictate and set the methodology for magic in Thedas for a thousand years and then it one day is simply gone from the equation.

Leaving beyond a massive structuring vacuum that will be filled.

[Big I]

Whatever organization, whatever guild, society or cabal they form is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You think conscription is something you can escape in society where a lord can easily declare owned property nationalised? God it's rich, this is a world were rights of the individual are practically non existent outside of nobility and you think the living weapons will have a choice to pick sides?

...
You had the Chantry dictate and set the methodology for magic in Thedas for a thousand years and then it one day is simply gone from the equation.

Leaving beyond a massive structuring vacuum that will be filled.

 

You either have the College of Enchanters, the Bright Hand or the Circle post DA:I. The Circle fits into existing power structures, the Bright Hand is a part of the Inquisition or the Circle, and the College of Enchanters is widely accepted. All three organisations are able to protect themselves from noble/royal interference. The whole reason Alistair or Anora couldn't free the Ferelden Circle post DA:O is because the Circle was outside their jurisdiction.

 

The nobility of Thedas has, absent the templars, no way to enforce their will on mages. Individual nobles have limited armed forces, and those forces are not trained in fighting mages. Moreover, mages are useful to nobles. Mages represent the best health care in Thedas, curing illness with magic and alchemy far better than the quacks that pass as doctors. Mages are a source of enchanted goods, inluding arms and armor, that nobles want. They have a disincentive to interfere in the affairs of mages.

[Korva]

I suspect that Leliana's faith is heavily experiential and believing oneself to have a personal relationship with one's god, and not so much based on attachment to doctrine (something that I will say is hardly a sign of being more intellectual). Beyond that first conversation, Leliana doesn't really talk about her faith, so I don't think that one can say that she's somehow sub-intellectual about it.

 

True, believing in something because a book tells you to is no more impressive than believing because it makes you feel good. But with an established canon, there's something you can intellectually engage with. You can study its history, try to find out which source material was accepted or rejected or changed and why, tied to the political climate of the time. You can try to find recurring themes or messages that may help reconcile contradictory verses. You can read similar studies by other thinkers. Someone whose faith comes from emotion can't do that. Everything I recall of Leliana's faith is heavily based on feel-good emotion, on needing a divine purpose, on ignoring what she doesn't like instead of engaging with it and critically examining her own beliefs. That is why I definitely think that if her faith is meant to have a more intellectually rigorous aspect as well, it would have to be explicitly shown to be believable.

 

I'd call it heresy more than blasphemy; it's certainly not saying anything disrespectful to the Maker or Andraste, only challenging the Chantry (and in that, it's something more of a political statement, for how many people will really have their faith roused by the Maker ignoring them?).

 

I'm not sure it's not disrespectful. Not openly in an "I hate you and ****** on your ashes" kind of way of course, but if you believe in divine revelation in the Chant, marred by mortal fallibility or flat-out corruption though it may have been, then handwaving away anything you don't happen to like is not exactly respectful. And if you claim some personal divine revelations or relationship of your own, you're essentially putting yourself on the same level as Andraste.

 

 

I don't know why people project this condescending notion that Leliana is this confused little girl that needs to be infantilized.

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I wrote.

 

She knows what she believes in, she just hasn't figured out what means she wants to use to achieve her goals.

 

But why does she believe it? What is her belief based on? What are her justifications, her theological foundations, her answers to the ways her claims contradict established canon? There's zero intellectual examination or questioning that we can see, it's all about what does or does not give her the warm fuzzies. And, again, I don't care whose ideas are nicer or would make for a happier world. You don't need a religion for that, but when you are a follower of a religion, you don't just get to change its teachings based on nothing more than your personal whims.

 

What it boils down to is that I'd like to see reasons for why Leliana is actually a believer in and suitable religious authority on this god called "the Maker" instead of say the Invisible Pink Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Bleachrude]

While I think Master Warden Z could be a more little "gentle" in his posting...what he says is 100% true. It's what SHOULD happened. (it should be noted that even Ferelden, the most modern-day political system STILL has conscription and still thinks of nothing of a lord forcing individuals in to an army. (while many thought Loghain was a villain, never once in the arguments aainst him do you hear  at the Landsmeet, charges of press-ganging Fereldens into an army).

 

Ferelden, for example, is a land where a thief was going to be hung for being a thief and the only reason this sentence wasn't carried out was the historical "old as the 1st blight, Chantry supported" wardens. It is the height of disneyification that Neverra would not be looking to weaponize even further its own mages. Hell, I'd argue that Neverra would be the 1st to so this since a) it is literally next door to Tevinter and its mages apparently had significant leeway to begin with - note that Cassandra was raised by her uncle- a mage (which meant that in both Orlais and Neverra, mages were already living outside the Towers). Indeed, Neverra should be at the forefront o f having both mages as soldiers and soldiers with templar training....especally given that nowhere in the entire book/game have we ever seen Tevinter nobility not think of Thedas as belonging to them (at least with Orlais, you can argue that Celene is more interested in focuing on Orlais internally. Gaspard just seems to want to conquer for no other reason than to conquer)

 

It's one thing to kowtow to organizations that existed long before your nation did..it's another for Neverra to listen to an organization that literally is not even a year old

[Bleachrude]

You either have the College of Enchanters, the Bright Hand or the Circle post DA:I. The Circle fits into existing power structures, the Bright Hand is a part of the Inquisition or the Circle, and the College of Enchanters is widely accepted. All three organisations are able to protect themselves from noble/royal interference. The whole reason Alistair or Anora couldn't free the Ferelden Circle post DA:O is because the Circle was outside their jurisdiction.

 

The nobility of Thedas has, absent the templars, no way to enforce their will on mages. Individual nobles have limited armed forces, and those forces are not trained in fighting mages. Moreover, mages are useful to nobles. Mages represent the best health care in Thedas, curing illness with magic and alchemy far better than the quacks that pass as doctors. Mages are a source of enchanted goods, inluding arms and armor, that nobles want. They have a disincentive to interfere in the affairs of mages.

 

The reason why the circle was outside of anora and alistair's reach in DA:O was because it was part of the Chantry. The independent college of enchanters does not have this and this is why so many are going "huh?" and think Leliana is a mary-sue. Remember, DA:O was partly influenced by Game of Thrones (and this was before GoT was known to most - well before the actual show but when it was only the books)

 

As for the will of the nobles, that is exactly WHY the nobles would expect deference (and more importantly, why mages should defer to nobles....Remember, the point of Leliana's good ending is that mages are no different than anyone else and should be treated the same. But to be treated the same means that if a novle is gathering his forces to wage a war, any mage living in his domain should ALSO be subject to the same thing)

 

As an aside, er, mages are NOT the source of magical arms and armour...isn't that explicitly the domain of dwarves and the Tranquil....I could've sworn DA:O mentions that magical items are created through tranquils.

[Master Warder Z_]

You either have the College of Enchanters, the Bright Hand or the Circle post DA:I. The Circle fits into existing power structures, the Bright Hand is a part of the Inquisition or the Circle, and the College of Enchanters is widely accepted. All three organisations are able to protect themselves from noble/royal interference. The whole reason Alistair or Anora couldn't free the Ferelden Circle post DA:O is because the Circle was outside their jurisdiction.

The nobility of Thedas has, absent the templars, no way to enforce their will on mages. Individual nobles have limited armed forces, and those forces are not trained in fighting mages. Moreover, mages are useful to nobles. Mages represent the best health care in Thedas, curing illness with magic and alchemy far better than the quacks that pass as doctors. Mages are a source of enchanted goods, inluding arms and armor, that nobles want. They have a disincentive to interfere in the affairs of mages.

Disincentive? Disincentive...Nationalization of the circle successors is the only incentive. It provides the services of the magi, the ability of the magi and the loyalty of the magi, those scattered independent organizations have no means to resist save leaving the country which simply begins the game again.

The Chantry prevented this very occurrence but with it's removal it's all but guaranteed.

The Inquisition has no means to actually enforce it's opinion on any state, the college similarly has no means to do so and the circle operates on Chantry auspices but it's weakened.

It's simply the next stage of the usage of magi.

[Lumix19]

Disincentive? Disincentive...Nationalization of the circle successors is the only incentive. It provides the services of the magi, the ability of the magi and the loyalty of the magi, those scattered independent organizations have no means to resist save leaving the country which simply begins the game again.

The Chantry prevented this very occurrence but with it's removal it's all but guaranteed.

The Inquisition has no means to actually enforce it's opinion on any state, the college similarly has no means to do so and the circle operates on Chantry auspices but it's weakened.

It's simply the next stage of the usage of magi.

The loyalty of the mages? In what world would the mages fight the templars for freedom, and then sit there and accept conscription from a nation? And the College is meant to be the natural successor to the Chantry, pulling together the independent organisations as a single group. If a College tower is declared nationalised why wouldn't the College fight to protect their fellow mages? Especially if multiple nations start doing this simultaneously.

Also why doesn't the Inquisition have the means to enforce its will upon a state? I think we see quite clearly by Envy's intentions that the Inquisition is capable of a great deal more than you give it credit for.

 

The reason why the circle was outside of anora and alistair's reach in DA:O was because it was part of the Chantry. The independent college of enchanters does not have this and this is why so many are going "huh?" and think Leliana is a mary-sue. Remember, DA:O was partly influenced by Game of Thrones (and this was before GoT was known to most - well before the actual show but when it was only the books)

 

As for the will of the nobles, that is exactly WHY the nobles would expect deference (and more importantly, why mages should defer to nobles....Remember, the point of Leliana's good ending is that mages are no different than anyone else and should be treated the same. But to be treated the same means that if a novle is gathering his forces to wage a war, any mage living in his domain should ALSO be subject to the same thing)

 

As an aside, er, mages are NOT the source of magical arms and armour...isn't that explicitly the domain of dwarves and the Tranquil....I could've sworn DA:O mentions that magical items are created through tranquils.

What does Game of Thrones have to do with the issue at hand? Leliana' ending is not that mages are treated the same as everyone else but rather they are getting the chance to govern themselves as part of their own independent organisation. An organisation that, presumably, nobles will have to entreat if they require mage aid during a war. Also the Formari are the source of magical arms and armour and they're part of the Circle and thus presumably the new College.

 

While I think Master Warden Z could be a more little "gentle" in his posting...what he says is 100% true. It's what SHOULD happened. (it should be noted that even Ferelden, the most modern-day political system STILL has conscription and still thinks of nothing of a lord forcing individuals in to an army. (while many thought Loghain was a villain, never once in the arguments aainst him do you hear  at the Landsmeet, charges of press-ganging Fereldens into an army).

 

Ferelden, for example, is a land where a thief was going to be hung for being a thief and the only reason this sentence wasn't carried out was the historical "old as the 1st blight, Chantry supported" wardens. It is the height of disneyification that Neverra would not be looking to weaponize even further its own mages. Hell, I'd argue that Neverra would be the 1st to so this since a) it is literally next door to Tevinter and its mages apparently had significant leeway to begin with - note that Cassandra was raised by her uncle- a mage (which meant that in both Orlais and Neverra, mages were already living outside the Towers). Indeed, Neverra should be at the forefront o f having both mages as soldiers and soldiers with templar training....especally given that nowhere in the entire book/game have we ever seen Tevinter nobility not think of Thedas as belonging to them (at least with Orlais, you can argue that Celene is more interested in focuing on Orlais internally. Gaspard just seems to want to conquer for no other reason than to conquer)

 

It's one thing to kowtow to organizations that existed long before your nation did..it's another for Neverra to listen to an organization that literally is not even a year old

Nevarran Mortalitasi have significant power and influence in Nevarra as well as the respect of the people. I doubt they do anything they don't want to do. And they didn't kowtow to the Chantry, they were a fully independent organisation. More likely they'll either seek to train mages that appear in their nation or recruit from the College of Enchanters.

[The Baconer]

Disincentive? Disincentive...Nationalization of the circle successors is the only incentive. It provides the services of the magi, the ability of the magi and the loyalty of the magi, those scattered independent organizations have no means to resist save leaving the country which simply begins the game again.

The Chantry prevented this very occurrence but with it's removal it's all but guaranteed.

The Inquisition has no means to actually enforce it's opinion on any state, the college similarly has no means to do so and the circle operates on Chantry auspices but it's weakened.

It's simply the next stage of the usage of magi.

 

Pretty much.

 

On the other hand, more chances for "Viviennes" to fall through the cracks.

[Sports72Xtrm]

But why does she believe it? What is her belief based on? What are her justifications, her theological foundations, her answers to the ways her claims contradict established canon? There's zero intellectual examination or questioning that we can see, it's all about what does or does not give her the warm fuzzies. And, again, I don't care whose ideas are nicer or would make for a happier world. You don't need a religion for that, but when you are a follower of a religion, you don't just get to change its teachings based on nothing more than your personal whims.
 
What it boils down to is that I'd like to see reasons for why Leliana is actually a believer in and suitable religious authority on this god called "the Maker" instead of say the Invisible Pink Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Why? Her belief is based on the Chant.

And no longer was it formless, ever-changing,
But held fast, immutable,
With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky.
At last did the Maker
From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth,
With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.

Then the Maker said:
To you, my second-born, I grant this gift:
In your heart shall burn
An unquenchable flame
All-consuming, and never satisfied.
From the Fade I crafted you,
And to the Fade you shall return
Each night in dreams
That you may always remember me

In Dragon Age: Origins, she states that the Makers "speaks to her" in her dreams. Usually it might sound strange and we all assumed she may be lying but she survives being killed by the Warden, the same spirit who saved the Inquisitor knows Leliana by name, she has an incredible tolerance to the blight, Perhaps she is the Maker's agent, how does one know? How can you dispute something that cannot be proven? andraste herself according the codex examination of the Wrath of heaven chant, started the same way

Those who oppose Thee

Shall know the wrath of heaven.
Field and forest shall burn,
The seas shall rise and devour them,
The wind shall tear their nations
From the fact of the earth.
Lightning shall rain down from the sky,
They shall cry out to their false gods,
And find silence.

—Canticle of Andraste 7:19
Who was Andraste? This question has lingered in the ages since her death, not as easily answered as the faithful assume. Born an Alamarrislave in the frontier realm of the Tevinter Imperium, now Ferelden, theChant says she is the Bride of the Maker—that He told her in a vision of her role leading the rebellion against the corrupt magisters. Is it true, or, as some early Andrastian cults believed, did a friendly spirit bestow this "vision"? We must remember that legends of Andraste were multitude in the years immediately following her execution, and beliefs we take for granted belong to the "cult" victorious in suppressing all others. Indeed, even to suggest there was once disagreement was considered the direst heresy... until today, when we have lost even the memory of disagreement. All we know for certain is that Andraste inspired a world gripped by tyranny and chaos, that she helped spark a war which tore all of Thedas asunder.
—From Questioning the Chant by Magister Vibius Agorian

 

Unshaken by the darkness of the world,
She shall know true peace.

Many are those who wander in sin,
Despairing that they are lost forever,
But the one who repents, who has faith
Unshaken by the darkness of the world,
And boasts not, nor gloats
Over the misfortunes of the weak, but takes delight
In the Maker's law and creations, she shall know
The peace of the Maker's benediction.^%5B30%5D
The Light shall lead her safely
Through the paths of this world, and into the next.
For she who trusts in the Maker, fire is her water.
As the moth sees light and goes toward flame,
She should see fire and go towards Light.
The Veil holds no uncertainty for her,
And she will know no fear of death, for the Maker
Shall be her beacon and her shield, her foundation and her sword.

-Transfigurations 10:1

Maybe it's simple. As Anders says, "seems to me Andraste counsels men to find their own path to the Maker" and Leliana sees her vision of the Chantry as her path to the Maker. if the Maker speaks to people in dreams as the Chant says, perhaps she really is the Maker's agent. How does one know? Perhaps it doesn't work like that. Faith requires that one believe, not know. And her actions, whether for good or ill is left for only for the Maker if he exists to judge. But what she does want, setting the Chantry on the path to virtue and charity, trying to remove persecution, how can one not see that as good and decent?

 

Perhaps it is no concern to you. But it seems to me you desire absolute certainty when life nor religion is like that. The Maker will not slap you across the face with a giant sign and tell you what to believe. You question why Leliana is suited, well the same question can be said for any other Divine or any who seeks to tell people how to live their lives. You spurn warm fuzzy feelings and all that but that is what belief is founded on. As Justinia says, "Idealism is the chantry's stock in trade. A religion without ideals is tyranny." It's simple, Leliana sees the Chant as a social architecture for society to lead to virtue, Shouldn't that be the only justification a religious person needs? If that doesn't satisfy, then it doesn't.

[Mushashi7]

Lately, I've seen posts where people say Leliana will never be divine as she is crazy or her rule is doomed to failure, but her good endings show that not only does her rule not fail but her rule results in Mage freedom and acceptance.

Why do people not like this? I honestly want to know why people seriously isn't like this.

.
The answer is fear.

Just as in real life where people dispite and fear the thought of a society whithout law enforcement. They crave their own freedom, but not others.

[Bleachrude]

.
The answer is fear.

Just as in real life where people dispite and fear the thought of a society whithout law enforcement. They crave their own freedom, but not others.

 

Far from it....here's another example. Many here argue that mages would not be subject to the laws of the land they are in...but what about said mage's non magical family.  For example, in Ferelden, it was expected that Carver (and a non-mage Hawke) would be part of the king's army. Why would a non-mage be subject to conscription yet his sister, brother and father get a pass?

[Mushashi7]

So, some people get special treatment - or demands?

Depending on your point of view of course.

[Marcus_Brody]

Pfft the magi are weapons.

All this reformation will do is divide the world further. Nation states that rarely if ever had access to magic for military purposes will now have it on demand.

All the destruction of the circle will lead to is a massive military build up.

Agreed. I think Gaspard wanted to nationalize the circle and the templars. Without the Chantry support and/or supervision, most templars and mages will end serving in the army.

[Delphine]

I like Leliana as divine, especially as a softened Leliana. People say it's too radical, but I'm way more radical than she could be, so she actually totally fits my playstyle and views of the world.

[Xilizhra]

True, believing in something because a book tells you to is no more impressive than believing because it makes you feel good. But with an established canon, there's something you can intellectually engage with. You can study its history, try to find out which source material was accepted or rejected or changed and why, tied to the political climate of the time. You can try to find recurring themes or messages that may help reconcile contradictory verses. You can read similar studies by other thinkers. Someone whose faith comes from emotion can't do that. Everything I recall of Leliana's faith is heavily based on feel-good emotion, on needing a divine purpose, on ignoring what she doesn't like instead of engaging with it and critically examining her own beliefs. That is why I definitely think that if her faith is meant to have a more intellectually rigorous aspect as well, it would have to be explicitly shown to be believable.

I don't think we've heard her talk about it enough to have real proof either way. And personal experience more or less has to be involved in the equation, because there's no purely empirical, logical reason to follow any religion. Better than trying to figure out which bits of the Chant are "pure" or not, in my opinion, is to figure out which bits of it match reality, and Leliana seems to be doing that.

 

 

I'm not sure it's not disrespectful. Not openly in an "I hate you and ****** on your ashes" kind of way of course, but if you believe in divine revelation in the Chant, marred by mortal fallibility or flat-out corruption though it may have been, then handwaving away anything you don't happen to like is not exactly respectful. And if you claim some personal divine revelations or relationship of your own, you're essentially putting yourself on the same level as Andraste.

Unless Andrastianism is predicated on Andraste being a grasping tyrant who couldn't possibly share anything of her position, I still don't see why this is disrespectful.

 

 

Disincentive? Disincentive...Nationalization of the circle successors is the only incentive. It provides the services of the magi, the ability of the magi and the loyalty of the magi, those scattered independent organizations have no means to resist save leaving the country which simply begins the game again.

The Chantry prevented this very occurrence but with it's removal it's all but guaranteed.

The Inquisition has no means to actually enforce it's opinion on any state, the college similarly has no means to do so and the circle operates on Chantry auspices but it's weakened.

It's simply the next stage of the usage of magi.

The Inquisition has the power of a kingdom by the end of the game, and it's one not subject to preexisting national boundaries. The Inquisition can enforce plenty.

[Marcus_Brody]

The Inquisition cannot face Orlais for example, you can control the empire through contacts or blackmail. But that will not last forever. The day the court get tired of the Inquisitor, you can say goodbye to all the power you have. As an example, you need orlesian siege weapons to defeat the grey wardens in Adamant, and the imperial army to defeat Corifeus.

[Bleachrude]

I actually have more of a bone to pick with the idea of the inquisition being that much of a force. I honestly dont understand how either Orlais or Ferelden simply lets a new country in effect form right between them...I'm actually blanking on the historical precedent and the lack of action by either of the nations...

 

The inquisition LITERALLY carves out a piece of either country and neither one immediately sends a force to expel them?

 

This is what people mean by disneyification as the source material (game of thrones and other medieval fantasy fiction) would immediately point out the problems and why such a thing won't work...Yet somehow it does for the game?

 

Especially with something that takes place in less than a year.....

[Lumix19]

I actually have more of a bone to pick with the idea of the inquisition being that much of a force. I honestly dont understand how either Orlais or Ferelden simply lets a new country in effect form right between them...I'm actually blanking on the historical precedent and the lack of action by either of the nations...

 

The inquisition LITERALLY carves out a piece of either country and neither one immediately sends a force to expel them?

 

This is what people mean by disneyification as the source material (game of thrones and other medieval fantasy fiction) would immediately point out the problems and why such a thing won't work...Yet somehow it does for the game?

 

Especially with something that takes place in less than a year.....

I guess because the Inquisition is doing a lot to help? It is the end of the world after all. Orlais is fairly understandable though, they're in the midst of a civil war so they're not really paying attention to anything else.