626 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The Inquisition cannot face Orlais for example, you can control the empire through contacts or blackmail. But that will not last forever. The day the court get tired of the Inquisitor, you can say goodbye to all the power you have. As an example, you need orlesian siege weapons to defeat the grey wardens in Adamant, and the imperial army to defeat Corifeus.

Not alone, and not yet. But the Inquisition is too powerful for Orlais to really want to crush it at any given time in the foreseeable future, as it'd cost a lot without necessarily giving any benefits.

 

 

I actually have more of a bone to pick with the idea of the inquisition being that much of a force. I honestly dont understand how either Orlais or Ferelden simply lets a new country in effect form right between them...I'm actually blanking on the historical precedent and the lack of action by either of the nations...

 

The inquisition LITERALLY carves out a piece of either country and neither one immediately sends a force to expel them?

 

This is what people mean by disneyification as the source material (game of thrones and other medieval fantasy fiction) would immediately point out the problems and why such a thing won't work...Yet somehow it does for the game?

 

Especially with something that takes place in less than a year.....

The prestige of war against the Breach, the whole Herald of Andraste thing creating religious dissent...

[Eliastion]

As for nationalization of post-circles Mage organization, Thedas does seem to have a relatively strong guild system (in Ferelden we have crafthouses that hold no official power but have a lot of influence; though Ferelden might not be the perfect example seeing as its nobles generally are elveated to much lesser extent compared to common people). Either way, people that have useful skills and (especially) some kind of strength are perfectly able to hold on to their relative autonomy from nobles. And a nation would likely be much more interested in possibility of hiring best mages it could afford rather than creating mage-unfriendly environment where they need to look for and force into service sume undertrained nobodies. Do you think nations try to press into service members of trained mercenery companies living within their borders?

 

On a side note - I'm pretty sure there was no mention in Leliana's ending about opening priesthood to men. I'm pretty sure she was fiddling with racial restrictions only - so Leliana or not, no revered Fathers of the Chantry in forseeable future  

 

Oh, and one more things - a question reappears here from time to time: why do people hate the results of Leliana's reforms? The endings show that her reforms can work!

I already answered it, I think, but I'll do it again: pro-mage and pro-elves people (and I'm one of them) obviously would love the results. The problem is that we would love them to make sense and they're too perfect. There is little satisfaction with having your perfect ending if said ending is handled in a way that shatters your suspension of disbelief. I can't be really happy for having mages accepted if i can't believe it. That's the problem. You don't need to be a Templar-fanatic to be disappointed that your "perfect ending" sounds like cheap propaganda more than anything else.

I can rationalize this ending somewhat, these boards gave me some additional ammunition to rationalize it better, but I would still prefer this ending to be less perfect because then it would be so much more satisfying: "look, despite all the hurdles, things are looking brighter!" is a much warmer feeling inside than "Wait, what, how in hell did it work?"

People's problem isn't that the ending is undesirable (then you just don't pick it, really), it's that people consider it poorly written and detached from established reality of the setting even in places where mage-supporters and templar-supporters agree on (like "people in Sothern Thedas are afraid of mages").

[Marcus_Brody]

I actually have more of a bone to pick with the idea of the inquisition being that much of a force. I honestly dont understand how either Orlais or Ferelden simply lets a new country in effect form right between them...I'm actually blanking on the historical precedent and the lack of action by either of the nations...

 

The inquisition LITERALLY carves out a piece of either country and neither one immediately sends a force to expel them?

 

This is what people mean by disneyification as the source material (game of thrones and other medieval fantasy fiction) would immediately point out the problems and why such a thing won't work...Yet somehow it does for the game?

 

Especially with something that takes place in less than a year.....

The Inquisition is not a country, is a military order, and they only have Skyhold and some other fortress, like the templars.

And, at the point the Inquisition rises, Orlais was in the middle of a civil war, and Ferelden still recovering from the Blight, and both suffering the mage-templar war, they have more important things to worry about.

In my opinión, the only way the Inquisition can survive is through an Alliance with the chantry. The chantry needs the inquisition and the inquisition needs the chantry.

EDIT:

Xilizhra, tell that to the real life templar order. Orlais have much more men, more money, more siege weapons tan the inquisition, you can only control Orlais because of the civil war.  Empires don´t like powers that can be a Threat to their own position, and that´s exactly what the Inquisition can be, hell, you can even Blackmail the Emperor or Empress, that can´t end well for the Inquisition.

[Korva]

Why? Her belief is based on the Chant.

 

That verse says nothing about receiving divine revelations from the Maker in one's dreams, a claim which still ignores the whole abandonment issue without giving any theological justifications.

 

Perhaps she is the Maker's agent, how does one know? How can you dispute something that cannot be proven?

 

That's not how it works. A claim must be supported first, if it can't be supported it is meaningless and not worth engaging with. Note that I'm not talking about the context of the religion itself, not about what I as an outsider and atheist would consider meaningful evidence.

 

andraste herself according the codex examination of the Wrath of heaven chant, started the same way

 

Exactly. As I said, Leliana is essentially putting herself on the same level as Andraste, which should at the very least raise some eyebrows even among the most progressive and charitable believers.

 

And her actions, whether for good or ill is left for only for the Maker if he exists to judge. But what she does want, setting the Chantry on the path to virtue and charity, trying to remove persecution, how can one not see that as good and decent?

 

What is good or decent has no bearing on what is theological truth. Of course I'd rather live in a world shaped by softened-Leliana's beliefs ... as long as she manages to remain stable in her fuzzy-wuzziness this time around. But that is beside the point. The problem I have with "find your own path to the Maker" is that many people tend to be lazy and can easily ignore reflection and questioning (yes, I continue to harp on this a lot) in favor of simply following whatever whims they already had. Which renders the whole issue meaningless.

 

Perhaps it is no concern to you. But it seems to me you desire absolute certainty when life nor religion is like that.

 

No, I desire some indication that Leliana actually gives some thought to her beliefs, that she engages with the canonical doctrine instead of simply ignoring it when it does not suit her, that her faith is about something more than her need for unconditional love and acceptance. It seems to me that the Maker is supposed to fill a similar role for her that Marjolaine once did, then the Warden, then Justinia: the center of her emotional world and the source of her stability and self-worth, except this "person" ever so conveniently can't disagree with her or die on her. She feels strongly about something? It must be because the Maker wants it too!

 

This sh*t is dangerous. Uncritical faith in the divine truth of your own convictions is one of the quickest paths to tyranny, and we know how much Leliana's personality can twist back and forth, even with the caveat that some of the easiest and most extreme flip-flopping could be due to bad writing.

 

If she's just any random nobody picking and choosing from her religion's tenets on a whim, it doesn't matter. I'd expect many people do that to some degree or another. But when she's in a position of religious power and authority, she needs to do better than just go by her wants and feelings. Most of all, she needs to demonstrate the willingness and ability for critical, intellectual reflection, especially in the light of her own unstable history.

 

As Justinia says, "Idealism is the chantry's stock in trade. A religion without ideals is tyranny." It's simple, Leliana sees the Chant as a social architecture for society to lead to virtue, Shouldn't that be the only justification a religious person needs? If that doesn't satisfy, then it doesn't.

 

Of course it doesn't satisfy. You don't need religion for any of that. At the end of the day, religion is not about what the believers want or need, it's about seeking and serving the will of the deity in question. Obviously that's not exactly a walk in the park, especially with a deity who is said to have abandoned the world, but it is what you sign up for if you subscribe to that faith. That is why I have far more respect for the likes of Cassandra or Mother Giselle as believers than for Leliana as a believer, because they engage and examine -- or even for Varric, who at least admits that he kind of hopes it's true simply because he likes the story and the musical numbers.

[Lady Elsa]

Lots of interesting discussion here. So one thing that has me curious in the Lelliana/allied mages ending is how will the new college be funded/protect its independence? I mean mages are a powerful asset and now they have no institution to take care of their everyday needs. 

 

From what I understand the old circles were funded partially by the Chantry and partially though tranquil labour? They were also under the protection/jurisdiction of the Chantry so no ruler or noble could use them/hire them for personal gain. The Bright Hand ending could be interpreted as the Inquisition taking on the patronage role for those mages who join it. So what about the College?

 

Will it be privately funded? Will mages from noble families use their connections to get them gold (and thus put themselves in charge?) Will Orlesian nobles be eager to hire mages to give themselves a leg-up in the Game? A number of mages could support themselves through healing skills but what about the rest? (aren't spirit healers supposed to be rare?) The circles have never bothered to teach them any life skills, nor did they ever have to do hard labour? 

 

Not saying it can't be resolved in a positive way, just that I have a bit of a hard time imagining it....

[Inprea]

Lots of interesting discussion here. So one thing that has me curious in the Lelliana/allied mages ending is how will the new college be funded/protect its independence? I mean mages are a powerful asset and now they have no institution to take care of their everyday needs. 

 

From what I understand the old circles were funded partially by the Chantry and partially though tranquil labour? They were also under the protection/jurisdiction of the Chantry so no ruler or noble could use them/hire them for personal gain. The Bright Hand ending could be interpreted as the Inquisition taking on the patronage role for those mages who join it. So what about the College?

 

Will it be privately funded? Will mages from noble families use their connections to get them gold (and thus put themselves in charge?) Will Orlesian nobles be eager to hire mages to give themselves a leg-up in the Game? A number of mages could support themselves through healing skills but what about the rest? (aren't spirit healers supposed to be rare?) The circles have never bothered to teach them any life skills, nor did they ever have to do hard labour? 

 

Not saying it can't be resolved in a positive way, just that I have a bit of a hard time imagining it....

 

Well the tranquil says that enchanting is how the circle gets its wealth when you ask at Ostargar plus mages could be sent out to work for nobles. If you read the book on creation magic in Dragon Age Origins it mentions healers are in demand in peace and war time. I don't believe the mages will be using the right of tranquility as often if ever at this point so likely the mages are going to have to spend more time working. A healer would likely have an easy time selling their services and from what we've seen a few mages on a ship can be quite deadly. I can see every Navy that doesn't want to fall behind needing to hire a few mages to work on their ships.

 

We also know from awakening that mages involve themselves in other studies like botany and alchemy from dragon age 2. In the court yard you encounter a tranquil that meredith has encouraged to make and sell more alchemy potions to increase income. I'm pretty sure she had her hand in the pot.

 

So lots of ways to pay the bills. The extra work also helps with defense. A mage that's been working with the military and has practice burning people to death is going to be a lot harder target then one who's never participated in battle. They may also higher private security/mercenary groups.

[Caddius]

For a vaguely related parallel to the Inquisition's formation as a country, the Teutonic Order was called to exterminate convert the pagans living in the Baltic. They carved out Prussia and made the Old Prussians their serfs, and it seems like the Old Prussians were brought close to extinction by the Teutonic Order's brutality. They were bolstered with zealous volunteers, and made headway against the Lithuanian pagans. Their power-mongering alarmed the Kingdom of Poland, who had originally called them in, and the Poles and Lithuanians joined forces. The Teutonic Order became a secular power like any other kingdom, just with the veneer of religion and lacking family dynasties. They were eventually absorbed by Brandenburg, becoming Prussia, that would one day unite the flotsam of the Holy Roman Empire into Germany.

However, the Inquisition doesn't seem to have territory so much as it has a smattering of keeps, Skyhold itself, and various outposts that help defend settlements, as well as political and economic ties with much of southern Thedas's nobility, and (potentially) endorsement by the Kings of Ferelden and Nevarra, the Empress/Emperor of Orlais, and the Archon of the Tevinter Imperium.

This is similar to a different crusading order.  The Knights Templar started off defending pilgrims in the Levant. They built castles throughout the Holy Land, and eventually spread their operations across Europe. Seen as a neutral party, they helped invent many of the modern ideas of banking, and wielded power, money and prestige far beyond what you'd expect of a monastic order. They even traded peaceably with Muslims, as the Knights Templar were rather progressive in their views.

The King of France wanted that money and smattering of keeps, so he worked with the Pope to create sham trials accusing the Knights Templar of heresy. Their leaders were tortured and executed, and the Knights who didn't die received refuge in their brother Knights Hospitallers ranks, or in various conspiracy theories.

With a clear threat ('Heathens'/The Breach) to a shared civilization (West/Chantry), these religious orders do well. Inevitably if they start getting too powerful and too wealthy, the more powerful empires surrounding them will destroy them for that power. I doubt Orlais or Ferelden will do it until there's either an incident or they've grown stable enough they can get rid of the Inquisition.

[Lumix19]

For a vaguely related parallel to the Inquisition's formation as a country, the Teutonic Order was called to exterminate convert the pagans living in the Baltic. They carved out Prussia and made the Old Prussians their serfs, and it seems like the Old Prussians were brought close to extinction by the Teutonic Order's brutality. They were bolstered with zealous volunteers, and made headway against the Lithuanian pagans. Their power-mongering alarmed the Kingdom of Poland, who had originally called them in, and the Poles and Lithuanians joined forces. The Teutonic Order became a secular power like any other kingdom, just with the veneer of religion and lacking family dynasties. They were eventually absorbed by Brandenburg, becoming Prussia, that would one day unite the flotsam of the Holy Roman Empire into Germany.
However, the Inquisition doesn't seem to have territory so much as it has a smattering of keeps, Skyhold itself, and various outposts that help defend settlements, as well as political and economic ties with much of southern Thedas's nobility, and (potentially) endorsement by the Kings of Ferelden and Nevarra, the Empress/Emperor of Orlais, and the Archon of the Tevinter Imperium.
This is similar to a different crusading order.  The Knights Templar started off defending pilgrims in the Levant. They built castles throughout the Holy Land, and eventually spread their operations across Europe. Seen as a neutral party, they helped invent many of the modern ideas of banking, and wielded power, money and prestige far beyond what you'd expect of a monastic order. They even traded peaceably with Muslims, as the Knights Templar were rather progressive in their views.
The King of France wanted that money and smattering of keeps, so he worked with the Pope to create sham trials accusing the Knights Templar of heresy. Their leaders were tortured and executed, and the Knights who didn't die received refuge in their brother Knights Hospitallers ranks, or in various conspiracy theories.
With a clear threat ('Heathens'/The Breach) to a shared civilization (West/Chantry), these religious orders do well. Inevitably if they start getting too powerful and too wealthy, the more powerful empires surrounding them will destroy them for that power. I doubt Orlais or Ferelden will do it until there's either an incident or they've grown stable enough they can get rid of the Inquisition.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this. I wasn't fully aware of the extent of these organizations (to be frank I only knew about King Philip's(?) part in the destruction of the Templars) but it's fascinating. And I think that last bit is especially interesting considering Morrigan's warning, there will certainly be people looking to knock down the Inquisition if it gets too powerful.

[Big I]

Disincentive? Disincentive...Nationalization of the circle successors is the only incentive. It provides the services of the magi, the ability of the magi and the loyalty of the magi, those scattered independent organizations have no means to resist save leaving the country which simply begins the game again.

The Chantry prevented this very occurrence but with it's removal it's all but guaranteed.

The Inquisition has no means to actually enforce it's opinion on any state, the college similarly has no means to do so and the circle operates on Chantry auspices but it's weakened.

It's simply the next stage of the usage of magi.

 

Here's why mages wouldn't be nationalised (i.e. brought under the exclusive control of royal or noble families):

 

 

1) If the Circle still exists mages are still connected to the Chantry, and so are outside their jurisdiction.

 

 

2) If the Bright Hand is a part of the Inquisition the Inquisition's power (which includes a large standing army and political connections to many monarchs and nobles) protects them from conscription

 

 

3) If the independent College of Enchanters exist it's because both the Divine and the Inquisitior support independence for mages. An attack on the College is an affront to the Divine and the Inquisition, which few would risk. Moreover the only way to take control of the College is with force of arms, which the mages have just shown themselves capable of resisting in their rebellion, and would be unpopular with wider society because of mages' "unprecedented acceptance".

[Lady Elsa]

Well the tranquil says that enchanting is how the circle gets its wealth when you ask at Ostargar plus mages could be sent out to work for nobles. If you read the book on creation magic in Dragon Age Origins it mentions healers are in demand in peace and war time. I don't believe the mages will be using the right of tranquility as often if ever at this point so likely the mages are going to have to spend more time working. A healer would likely have an easy time selling their services and from what we've seen a few mages on a ship can be quite deadly. I can see every Navy that doesn't want to fall behind needing to hire a few mages to work on their ships.

 

We also know from awakening that mages involve themselves in other studies like botany and alchemy from dragon age 2. In the court yard you encounter a tranquil that meredith has encouraged to make and sell more alchemy potions to increase income. I'm pretty sure she had her hand in the pot.

 

So lots of ways to pay the bills. The extra work also helps with defense. A mage that's been working with the military and has practice burning people to death is going to be a lot harder target then one who's never participated in battle. They may also higher private security/mercenary groups.

 

Interesting. I can see some of that working but then I think the College would have to start operating like a guild of sorts, enforcing certain rules and codes of conduct on its members otherwise the whole thing would be ripe for abuse? I mean without enforced rules what would stop a noble paying a mage to use blood magic against a rival or burn down their fields/holdings? Having a large number of mages participating in various conflicts and squabbles on a regular bases also sounds like it could result in a lot of additional damage? Overall I can see the mage institution becoming successful/powerful if they involve themselves militarily but not necessarily in a good way as far as the rest of Thedas is concerned...

[Big I]

With a clear threat ('Heathens'/The Breach) to a shared civilization (West/Chantry), these religious orders do well. Inevitably if they start getting too powerful and too wealthy, the more powerful empires surrounding them will destroy them for that power. I doubt Orlais or Ferelden will do it until there's either an incident or they've grown stable enough they can get rid of the Inquisition.

 

Conversely there are examples of organisations that are not moved upon by rulers. In Dragon Age you have the example of the Grey Wardens or the Antivan Crows, both centuries old powerful institutions that have weathered many different rulers, or even the House of Repose in Orlais which Josephine at least considers as just another part of Olesian politics. Other examples might inculde the Carta, the Dwarven Merchants Guild and the Felicisma Armada.

 

In real life you have the example of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which controlled Malta for centuries until it was ejected by Napoleon. It still exists today.

[Boost32]

 
 
3) If the independent College of Enchanters exist it's because both the Divine and the Inquisitior support independence for mages. An attack on the College is an affront to the Divine and the Inquisition, which few would risk. Moreover the only way to take control of the College is with force of arms, which the mages have just shown themselves capable of resisting in their rebellion, and would be unpopular with wider society because of mages' "unprecedented acceptance".

In a war they will be conscripyed , they answer to the owner of the land now, neither Leliana or the Inquisition have any say in the law, they cant go saying what a noble can or cannot do on his own land.
Leliana cant kill everyone with her assassins and the Inquisition cant go attacking a noble for what he does in his own land.
If you think the new system is perfect and have no problems, you will have another thing come.

[Lumix19]

In a war they will be conscripyed , they answer to the owner of the land now, neither Leliana or the Inquisition have any say in the law, they cant go saying what a noble can or cannot do on his own land.
Leliana cant kill everyone with her assassins and the Inquisition cant go attacking a noble for what he does in his own land.
If you think the new system is perfect and have no problems, you will have another thing come.

Owner of what land? The Circle Towers have always been owned by the Circle and I imagine they will continue to be owned by the College. No noble to my recollection as claim on the Circle Tower of Lake Calenhad for example.

[Boost32]

Owner of what land? The Circle Towers have always been owned by the Circle and I imagine they will continue to be owned by the College. No noble to my recollection as claim on the Circle Tower of Lake Calenhad for example.

And now do you think they will not reclaim? If the land is no longer from the Chantry some noble will claim it. Look at Haven, until the sacred ashes were found, no one claimed the land.

And I doubt the College is in Ferelden, they were exiled from there. The others nearby Circles were in lands already claimed (Val Royeaux, Montsimmard, Starkhaven, Cumberland, etc)

[Caddius]

And now do you think they will not reclaim? If the land is no longer from the Chantry some noble will claim it. Look at Haven, until the sacred ashes were found, no one claimed the land.

I'm sorry, but what noble in his right mind would try to reclaim and seize territory held by a mage organization like that? The mages, and the Formari in particular, would attract many travelers to whatever area the Circle was in, bringing money to the area, and it'd be to their benefit to have friendly relations with the Mage institutions. A tower in the middle of Lake Calenhad is not as valuable as a tower full of wizards who create wonders and are happy to have you as their trading partner and protector.

If it was a widespread mage organization with some power, and if it had the backing of the Chantry, it would be political and literal suicide by immolation and excommunication to mess with them.

Regardless of my views on the Leliana ending, I don't see the nobles making that kind of misstep. Most of the former Circles seem to not have been in premier locations anyhow.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I see that some here has overlooked guilds such as The Mages Collective. They seem to function just fine and they have been operating outside the Chantry jurisdiction for the longest time and they do not resort to Blood Magic. I mean, the Inquisition even requested the services of the Mages Collective in the form of Your Trainer to teach the Inquisitor the Rift Mage specialization. Then there are mercenary guilds groups such as the Valo-Kas and the Bull's Chargers that have mages working in them. Funny how those who are pro-Templar and pro-mage control have overlooked that mages can function perfectly fine in a guild or an organization or a part of an organization that is outside Chantry jurisdiction. 

 

Now in regards to funding a mage college like the Bright Hand or the College of Enchanters, you would just charge potential clients for services such as enchanting, alchemy, healing, scholastic expertise, demon exorcising, political counsel and funding from rich students such as the ones who are related nobility. They could even charge a small entrance or admission fee which can be waived if the potential student is financially challenged. We could even have certain leaderships like Celene of Orlais who would donate to them like she does to the Orlesian University. 

 

In other words, they would function and be funded in the same way a private university or private college in real life is funded. More specifically, the would function like how the Mages Guild, Arcane University and College of Winterhold function. There would be a private charter, they would offer services and what have you. 

 

As for mages and nationalism, no decent ruler would be stupid enough to try and interfere with a group of mages. Templars tried that and they are mage hunting specialists, yet the mages managed to last in rebellion for a while. What makes you think a bunch of soldiers with mediocre training will do ? 

 

Additionally, having mages produce powerful enchanted weapons and armor, well crafted potions and poisons, providing counsel will be far more beneficial than hunting them down and coercing them to do something. I a noble ruler cannot think in this fashion, it shows that they have a very shallow mindset and should not be ruling. 

 

Libertarian non-aggression principle ftw. 

[Caddius]

Conversely there are examples of organisations that are not moved upon by rulers. In Dragon Age you have the example of the Grey Wardens or the Antivan Crows, both centuries old powerful institutions that have weathered many different rulers, or even the House of Repose in Orlais which Josephine at least considers as just another part of Olesian politics. Other examples might inculde the Carta, the Dwarven Merchants Guild and the Felicisma Armada.

 

In real life you have the example of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which controlled Malta for centuries until it was ejected by Napoleon. It still exists today.

An excellent point. Is the Sovereign Military Order of Malta the modern incarnation of the Hospitallers? I know they've managed to survive the centuries, as I believe the Teutonic Order has to an extent. 

The Grey Wardens are an excellent example of how ad hoc organizations like the Inquisition wither without the threat still present. The Blight is so dangerous, and its impact so huge, that even centuries later, the Wardens still hold sway. Many rulers and people seem to disregard them, while others still see them as necessary and heroic. They were ejected from Ferelden for getting involved in politics, and Loghain's actions are an unsuccessful attempt at that again. So I shouldn't say that the Inquisition will be wiped out within a matter of years. But I think it'll be interesting to see how it evolves.

[Lumix19]

And now do you think they will not reclaim? If the land is no longer from the Chantry some noble will claim it. Look at Haven, until the sacred ashes were found, no one claimed the land.

Umm, no you can't manufacture claims out of thin air. The Marquis who owns Haven has a claim due to his wife's Ferelden relations I think? Probably dating back to when Ferelden was conquered by Orlais. There might be a treaty in their somewhere. My point is that you can't manafacture claims. Perhaps the Marquis didn't know he had Haven or didn't care but he can't just decide that Haven is his. And most of the Circle Towers have been owned by the Circle for hundreds of years. Lake Calenhad's Tower had never been owned by any noble.

[Boost32]

I'm sorry, but what noble in his right mind would try to reclaim and seize territory held by a mage organization like that? The mages, and the Formari in particular, would attract many travelers to whatever area the Circle was in, bringing money to the area, and it'd be to their benefit to have friendly relations with the Mage institutions. A tower in the middle of Lake Calenhad is not as valuable as a tower full of wizards who create wonders and are happy to have you as their trading partner and protector.
If it was a widespread mage organization with some power, and if it had the backing of the Chantry, it would be political and literal suicide by immolation and excommunication to mess with them.
Regardless of my views on the Leliana ending, I don't see the nobles making that kind of misstep. Most of the former Circles seem to not have been in premier locations anyhow.

Do you really think a place with living weapons and riches not attract the nobles? In a time of war there will be no Excuses, without the Chantry there is no way to prevent it.
If you think the system os flawless, you are very innocent.

[Lumix19]

Do you really think a place with living weapons and riches not attract the nobles? In a time of war there will be no Excuses, without the Chantry there is no way to prevent it.
If you think the system os flawless, you are very innocent.

First no noble can simply seize land. Second nobles can barely work together at the best of times. They wouldn't even be able to decide who gets what portion of the riches.

[Boost32]

Umm, no you can't manufacture claims out of thin air. The Marquis who owns Haven has a claim due to his wife's Ferelden relations I think? Probably dating back to when Ferelden was conquered by Orlais. There might be a treaty in their somewhere. My point is that you can't manafacture claims. Perhaps the Marquis didn't know he had Haven or didn't care but he can't just decide that Haven is his. And most of the Circle Towers have been owned by the Circle for hundreds of years. Lake Calenhad's Tower had never been owned by any noble.

You are taking a claimed without evidence too, where is said that the land of lake Calenhad is unclaimed? While the towers belonged to the Chabtry , they were in places owned by the nobility, or do you think Val Royeaux and Kirkwall have no owners?

[Caddius]

Do you really think a place with living weapons and riches not attract the nobles? In a time of war there will be no Excuses, without the Chantry there is no way to prevent it.
If you think the system os flawless, you are very innocent.

I never claimed any system is flawless. I am somewhat innocent.

Do you think that in a time of war, a Count would waste his forces by assaulting a fortified building held by mages who can heal, set up barriers, summon demons, rain down alchemical fire, shroud the area in fog, incinerate all siege weaponry, and more, for the sake of enchanted weapons and armor that they could get without blacklisting themselves in exchange for coin?

To me, in this ending, the College of Enchanters is supported by the Chantry and the Inquisition, all part of the new status quo. Even if it wasn't supported, the nobles would stick to seizing their neighbors property, not squandering resources. War doesn't offer excuses, true, but lords didn't go around slaughtering their own citizens or foreign merchant quarters to use their resources unless the war was with those specific groups. They would bargain, like any reasonable person. The ones that did were foolish and suffered for their mistakes.

[Caddius]

You are taking a claimed without evidence too, where is said that the land of lake Calenhad is unclaimed? While the towers belonged to the Chabtry , they were in places owned by the nobility, or do you think Val Royeaux and Kirkwall have no owners?

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Circle_Tower

Built by Avvar, conquered by Tevinter, shunned and thought to be cursed by Alamarri, the Circle was moved there because the one in Denerim burned down and they had a secluded fortress not held or claimed by anyone that was just waiting to be filled.

[Boost32]

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Circle_Tower
Built by Avvar, conquered by Tevinter, shunned and thought to be cursed by Alamarri, the Circle was moved there because the one in Denerim burned down and they had a secluded fortress not held or claimed by anyone that was just waiting to be filled.

So I was wrong about this Circle, but all the others still in lands already claimed. And I doubt the College will be in Ferelden, they were exiled from there.

[Lumix19]

You are taking a claimed without evidence too, where is said that the land of lake Calenhad is unclaimed? While the towers belonged to the Chabtry , they were in places owned by the nobility, or do you think Val Royeaux and Kirkwall have no owners?

It's right on the wiki. Lake Calenhad's tower was built by the Avvar centuries ago then taken over by the Imperium. Then the Circle moved in. The Towers didn't belong to the Chantry they belonged to the Circle. Val Royeux definitely had an owner but it's most likely the empress/emperor. Kirkwall technically is owned by the Viscount I would think. And many of the Towers were deliberately placed in places away from the general population. You know, so they don't come into conflict? Besides I have no doubt that these lands were deliberately parceled out to the Circles so that the Chantry and Circle didn't have a headache every time the noble in question wanted to do something with the territory.