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Why are people so opposed to Divine Leliana?


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#401
Caddius

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So I was wrong about this Circle, but all the others still in lands already claimed. And I doubt the College will be in Ferelden, they were exiled from there.

How do you know? :)

And the Gallows in Kirkwall are the prize possession of some noble? The White Spire in Val Royeaux was the citadel of Emperor Drakon, but his family line's been out of power for Ages. The Circles were set up in pragmatic locations.

These are places that the mages have occupied for centuries. They are by nature fortified. The people have enjoyed the thought of mages being (largely) cooped up in noticeable towers. The nobles aren't going to waltz in Cruader Kings II style with a 20 Diplomat, a Fabricated Claim, and the trusty Scottish Warband. 


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#402
Marcus_Brody

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Most of you forget that if Leliana becomes Divine, Mages will be free. Do you really think all of them will join the Mages Guild, Bright Hand etc, under someone like Fiona? On the contrary, I guess most of them will do their lifes, with very little relation with that organization.



#403
Bayonet Hipshot

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Do you really think a place with living weapons and riches not attract the nobles? In a time of war there will be no Excuses, without the Chantry there is no way to prevent it.
If you think the system os flawless, you are very innocent.

 

Your arguments boil down to this :- The new system is not flawless and therefore we must implement the old system which created a "boiling pot that will inevitably burst" scenario, because "order". 

 

Was the old system flawless ? It lead to a staggeringly high loss of life from countless Rights of Annulments, slavery in the form of individual lobotomy, being open to manipulation from the monarchy (Loghain in DAO), it lead to different circles have drastically different standards and environments to the point they might be on an alien planet, etc. 

 

What is more, the argument you are making is that mages are weak without the Chantry protection. Really ? Have you seen what mages can do ? Have you seen how powerful mages are like when they are not under Chantry control ?

 

I would argue that is it the Chantry that made mages weak because they restricted mages from being able to wield weapons, learn martial combat properly, declared branches of magic such as shapeshifting magic as heretical for a long time and in general created the structure that benefits the Chantry. 

 

I mean mages in the Circles are supposed to be scholarly, yes ? So why have we never heard of any scholarly publications on examining the historical validity of the Chant of Light ? You see in real life scholars disputing religious claims from many perspectives be it historical or scientific. Why have we not seen this in Circles of Magi ? Even if we have seen books that suggests Andraste might be a powerful mage, the book is typically banned. Furthermore, why are mages from the Circles made to do mundane tasks such as lighting the fires in the Grand Catherdal ? Why are the mages from the Circles who were allowed to learn how to fight were only allowed to do so under the Chantry ? 

 

Fen'Harel puts it best :- "Your rigorous training lays a solid foundation, true. It also creates boundaries, limits, where none need exist."

 

I would argue this foundation created boundaries and censorship as well since we have not see any scholarly publications that were not pro-Chantry. I mean I am an academic in real life, a masters students and academics love to investigate controversial things and publish them in papers. Why have there not been investigation into say, relationship between Shartan and Andraste ? That would certainly make for an exciting paper. Why have most of the historical research that have been published is done by a Chantry scholar, not a Circle Mage Scholar ?

 

Did you not play the game ? Did you not notice how not only your advisor such as Leliana and Cullen but your companions such as Cassandra and Solas make the point that goes something along the lines of "this conflict was inevitable and was in the making for a long time..." ? Did you not see how both mages and non-mages, Andrastians and non-Andrastians seem to agree with that one point of "this crap we have now is bound to happen at some point..."

 

Given that this is the situation, shouldn't a new solution, a fresh solution be more useful than say, rehashing the same old system ?

 

I doubt that once you give mages a taste of freedom in the form of independent magi colleges, they would want to go back to the old system. 


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#404
Lumix19

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How do you know? :)
And the Gallows in Kirkwall are the prize possession of some noble? The White Spire in Val Royeaux was the citadel of Emperor Drakon, but his family line's been out of power for Ages. The Circles were set up in pragmatic locations.
These are places that the mages have occupied for centuries. They are by nature fortified. The people have enjoyed the thought of mages being (largely) cooped up in noticeable towers. The nobles aren't going to waltz in Cruader Kings II style with a 20 Diplomat, a Fabricated Claim, and the trusty Scottish Warband.


I laughed so hard at this mainly because I love (and hate) Crusader Kings. It's fun and educational! And it's been in my mind this whole claims conversation.
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#405
Caddius

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Most of you forget that if Leliana becomes Divine, Mages will be free. Do you really think all of them will join the Mages Guild, Bright Hand etc, under someone like Fiona? On the contrary, I guess most of them will do their lifes, with very little relation with that organization.

I think many of them that value their magic and practice it will join it for the same reasons most craftsmen joined guilds: stability, prestige, wealth, knowledge, solidarity. There would probably be a lot going Malcolm Hawke style, and just teaching their children, and a lot of them that see magic as a curse and just don't practice it beyond fighting off demonic possession.

I would seriously love to see Mages' Guilds in Thedas, complete with the Fraternities bickering over policy and the Glass-Makers of Serault giving lessons on how to be annoying. 


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#406
Bayonet Hipshot

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Most of you forget that if Leliana becomes Divine, Mages will be free. Do you really think all of them will join the Mages Guild, Bright Hand etc, under someone like Fiona? On the contrary, I guess most of them will do their lifes, with very little relation with that organization.

 

Actually most of them will study for a while and then work somewhere, get married, have kids. Kinda like how people do it right now in the real world.

 

For mages, it will be :- Born, learn that they have magic, study in a guild, graduate, find a job within the guild or outside of it, get married, settle down, have kids, get old, die. 

 

Sort of like how mages do it in Elder Scrolls and how wizards & witches do it in Harry Potter. 


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#407
Lady Elsa

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I see that some here has overlooked guilds such as The Mages Collective.

 

 

 

The way I understood it the collective is a secret/rogue organization more akin to the Jennies (though better organized) rather than an official institution such as the College aims to be? (at least I assume it does). A lot of their dealings are covert and even illegal, such as bribing a templar commander with lyrium to 'look the other way'.

 

Not saying they don't do good as far as protecting innocent mages and such but I would like to think that if the College is to be a positive thing their practices would need be more open and above board? If they can manage to operate/receive funding as a university/craftsmen guild and nothing more (like involving themselves in military/noble's conflicts) then fair enough... :)



#408
Marcus_Brody

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For me, it is clear that if Leliana becomes Divine, mages will end up fighting wars, for Orlais, Ferelden, Nevarra or any other country. Mages will be FREE, if the army pays them enough money, why not join the army? If they are some kind of nationalist, why not fight for their country?

But I don´t think that´s a bad thing at all.


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#409
Boost32

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How do you know? :)
And the Gallows in Kirkwall are the prize possession of some noble? The White Spire in Val Royeaux was the citadel of Emperor Drakon, but his family line's been out of power for Ages. The Circles were set up in pragmatic locations.
These are places that the mages have occupied for centuries. They are by nature fortified. The people have enjoyed the thought of mages being (largely) cooped up in noticeable towers. The nobles aren't going to waltz in Cruader Kings II style with a 20 Diplomat, a Fabricated Claim, and the trusty Scottish Warband.

Kirkwall land belong to its Viscount
Starkhaven to its prince
Ostwick to its Teyrn
Val Royeaux to the emperor/empress
Montsmmard to a duke or marquise
Hossberg to the king of Andersfel
Dairsmuid to the king of Rivain
Both Circles in Nevarra are in cities (Cumberland and Parendale)
Hasmal, Merkham and Ansburg have Circles too
The other Circle in Ferelden is in the Walking Sea Bannorn
The only we dont know where its located, is the one in Antiva

#410
Caddius

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Kirkwall land belong to its Viscount
Starkhaven to its prince
Ostwick to its Teyrn
Val Royeaux to the emperor/empress
Montsmmard to a duke or marquise
Hossberg to the king of Andersfel
Dairsmuid to the king of Rivain
Both Circles in Nevarra are in cities (Cumberland and Parendale)
Hasmal, Merkham and Ansburg have Circles too
The other Circle in Ferelden is in the Walking Sea Bannorn
The only we dont know where its located, is the one in Antiva

Please share your sources on who owns what, then, if you have all of this information at your fingertips. :)

And please elaborate on the nature of each Circle. Are most of them old family castles they couldn't be bothered to maintain? Perhaps an extravagant summer cottage?



#411
Boost32

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[quote name="Tishen-13" post="18803605" timestamp="1426514980"]Your arguments boil down to this :- The new system is not flawless and therefore we must implement the old system which created a "boiling pot that will inevitably burst" scenario, because "order".  [Quote]
Never claimed that, I know the okd system was flawed too, but people defend this new system like its flawless and when someone points its flaws they dont listen.

#412
Boost32

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Please share your sources on who owns what, then, if you have all of this information at your fingertips. :)
And please elaborate on the nature of each Circle. Are most of them old family castles they couldn't be bothered to maintain? Perhaps an extravagant summer cottage?

Just go to the wiki.

#413
Caddius

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Just go to the wiki.

The wiki will have lists of the Circles, it will not answer the question of ownership. Unless you've stumbled across a relatively unknown wiki entry. If that is the case and you're not just making things up, please share your source.



#414
Lumix19

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Never claimed that, I know the okd system was flawed too, but people defend this new system like its flawless and when someone points its flaws they dont listen.


Well the hope is that this new system will be better. Not flawless, since nothing is, but better. Each Circle has failed, from Ferelden's extremely liberal Circle to Kirkwall's extremely stringent. This is the argument I agree with http://dragonage.wik..._Circle_of_Magi
If the Circles fundamentally cannot work then a new system is in order.

#415
Draining Dragon

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Because she should be shot


Fixed.

#416
Boost32

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The wiki will have lists of the Circles, it will not answer the question of ownership. Unless you've stumbled across a relatively unknown wiki entry. If that is the case and you're not just making things up, please share your source.


OK, Val Royeaux does not belong to the emperor/empress, its a unclaimed land.

#417
Lumix19

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OK, Val Royeaux does not belong to the emperor/empress, its a unclaimed land.


Unlikely but nothing is to say that the tower itself belongs to the empress/emperor. Sometimes important structures, like cities, can have separate titles and owners. Not sure about a tower within a city though hmm mm.

#418
Boost32

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Unlikely but nothing is to say that the tower itself belongs to the empress/emperor. Sometimes important structures, like cities, can have separate titles and owners. Not sure about a tower within a city though hmm mm.


They might not own the tower, but they are the owner of the land, the people who livre inside the tower are under the law of the empress or emperor.

#419
Lady Artifice

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Just go to the wiki.

 

Yeah, I tried to do the legwork and there doesn't seem to be any record for this.

Since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

 

If you can't provide proof, then everyone else is left to assume your claim was speculation. 



#420
TheKomandorShepard

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Well the hope is that this new system will be better. Not flawless, since nothing is, but better. Each Circle has failed, from Ferelden's extremely liberal Circle to Kirkwall's extremely stringent. This is the argument I agree with http://dragonage.wik..._Circle_of_Magi
If the Circles fundamentally cannot work then a new system is in order.

Ferelden and kirkwall circles failed because mages were corrupted somehow i don't see corruption going away by power of love and rainbows corruption can by only larger here as mages don't have to fear consequences and mages have infinitely larger room to do things they shouldn't do.



#421
capn233

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This is why I made Morrigan Divine.



#422
Lumix19

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They might not own the tower, but they are the owner of the land, the people who livre inside the tower are under the law of the empress or emperor.


You can't own a structure without owning the land. But it might be possible that the tower is within Orlais' jurisdiction. Then again Circle towers were all supposed to be in Chantry jurisdiction, not necessarily the country the tower is in.

#423
Boost32

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Yeah, I tried to do the legwork and there doesn't seem to be any record for this.
Since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on your shoulders.
 
If you can't provide proof, then everyone else is left to assume your claim was speculation.

I was speaking about the land where the Circles were located, those are all in a cities and those cities have owners.

#424
Boost32

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You can't own a structure without owning the land. But it might be possible that the tower is within Orlais' jurisdiction. Then again Circle towers were all supposed to be in Chantry jurisdiction, not necessarily the country the tower is in.

English is not my first language, thats what I was trying to say, thanks.
And with Leliana they dont belong to the Chantry anymore.

#425
Lumix19

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English is not my first language, thats what I was trying to say, thanks.
And with Leliana they dont belong to the Chantry anymore.


No problem. That's true about the Chantry but if the College of Enchanters takes over as the successor to the Chantry such places might come under College jurisdiction instead. Possibly.