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Why are people so opposed to Divine Leliana?


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#476
TheKomandorShepard

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How the word unrealistic is used as a slogan for only Leliana is laughable. And I see you skipped over my reasoning as to why, and have instead opted to treat me as a Leliana supporter, which I am not. All three choices, as I've already written do not seem to be that great when compared to Giselle. However, each can work to some extent; I will use Leliana as an example because she needs some added consideration. However empirically, there have yet to be any troubles from soft Leliana's reign as Divine. Most of you can't seem to realize that Thedas just went through a blight, a mage templar war, a civil war in Orlais, and the rift crisis. In real "dark and brutal" history, Rome fought 100 years worth of civil wars, by the time Augustus won, the old order was carrion for the birds. Anyone who would have faced him directly were dead, and everyone else was sick of all of the infighting, scorched lands, raped women, dead children etc. So Augusts had the legions, the authoritas and the gravitas and with it he created a new empire out of the skeleton of the SPQR. Leliana might not be all that different a postion, Augustus did the whole PAX ROMANA thing, and during his reign the only troubles he had, came from his expansion into new territory (mainly Germany), not from civil conflict.  If troubles come with Leliana's rule it will be from her trying to expand the faith (which she wants to do), and she has not been Divine long enough for this to be an issue as her chantry is trying to appropriate all of the new changes, and they still need to rebuild some political ties and some infrastructure. Augustus went through the same thing before he tried to expand Rome.

 

The Divine gets the Inquisitor as a supporter, all the traditional chantry power came from Orlais and a lesser extent from Ferelden, they have both been destabilized which means the chantry is supported by the most powerful military force in the south, the Inquisition, this makes direct dissent against the Divine less possible--but this does not preclude the knee jerk reaction Viv gets (because she is a mage, and the uber-religious are more than happy to throw their lives away in a crusade), and the shadow war Cassandra gets  is not a direct assault but more so pertaining to the 'game'. Leliana, later, might have some troubles with the Qun, if she is realy serious about exapning the faith all over Thedas.

 

Taking into account the aforementioned stability issues, to some extent each of the three can work (but not that well) simply because Thedas needs a Divine, and whoever is chosen gets powerful military support. However the three are still not the best choices narrative wise, they are the best choices politically and emotionally, and they were picked for that by Biowares dev/writers, who probably forgot about Giselle, or maybe ignored her because she did not equate to a so called 'bitter sweet sacrifice' nor does she equal a grand political move (Viv).

 

As for your badly worded bit about emotions and realism, no Bioware does not have to adhere to what you think is 'realistic', and I was not defending what they did. I was only pointing out what they did, and why 'what they did', all three choices, were not as good as Giselle.

And where it is said it is only used toward leliana it used toward her mostly because she takes podium.Another thing i didn't have skip anything your only reasoning about leliana epilogue was that in fact that people call her unrealistic because they disagree with her to what i refered to rest of your point is pretty much aruging about possible candidates on divine place and their plausibility what has nothing to do with leliana epilogue. 

.Also show me place i "opted" treat you leliana supporter... at this point i even wonder if you have read my post because you call me on things i didn't do or in fact did.

 

Leliana isn't leader of the country in first place also she supports hated by society group that pretty much mostly was cause of destruction and death in thedas and freed them what isn't the same as rule with iron fist because to do that you need support and there is plenty forces that would destroy leliana on that basis.So no leliana saying "love mages" won't work or should i say it shouldn't and isn't even close to realistic if that was in case racism would be gone and racism compared to problem here pales

 

Inquisition isn't most powerful military force for sure inquisition is powerful in fact but can't match orlais in that terms and even war with ferelden would end poorly for inquisition not mention when you start to do **** that people dislike what pretty much inquisition stands on you lose support and by that power.

 

No they don't have to they should and as i said all choices for divine were in fact to some extent realistic (save for viviene) and plausible same for Giselle not being candidate where i think she should be candidate i don't think it is unrealistic to her not to be one. 



#477
Andres Hendrix

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And where it is said it is only used toward leliana it used toward her mostly because she takes podium.Another thing i didn't have skip anything your only reasoning about leliana epilogue was that in fact that people call her unrealistic because they disagree with her to what i refered to rest of your point is pretty much aruging about possible candidates on divine place and their plausibility what has nothing to do with leliana epilogue. 

.Also show me place i "opted" treat you leliana supporter... at this point i even wonder if you have read my post because you call me on things i didn't do or in fact did.

 

Leliana isn't leader of the country in first place also she supports hated by society group that pretty much mostly was cause of destruction and death in thedas and freed them what isn't the same as rule with iron fist because to do that you need support and there is plenty forces that would destroy leliana on that basis.So no leliana saying "love mages" won't work or should i say it shouldn't and isn't even close to realistic if that was in case racism would be gone and racism compared to problem here pales

 

Inquisition isn't most powerful military force for sure inquisition is powerful in fact but can't match orlais in that terms and even war with ferelden would end poorly for inquisition not mention when you start to do **** that people dislike what pretty much inquisition stands on you lose support and by that power.

 

No they don't have to they should and as i said all choices for divine were in fact to some extent realistic (save for viviene) and plausible same for Giselle not being candidate where i think she should be candidate i don't think it is unrealistic to her not to be one. 

Man, you need to go back on your meds. And with that, my work is done.



#478
TheKomandorShepard

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Man, you need to go back on your meds. And with that, my work is done.

I don't need back on my meds because i don't take any but it goes from person that makes up out of nowhere things that apparently
i have said. ;)



#479
MisterJB

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.


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#480
raging_monkey

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.

sounds proper. There was a divine that enjoyed burning mages and hereatics so its not "unrealistic" :P

#481
Lumix19

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.


The Divine has to be one of the best players of the Game, assassination is probably the least of her crimes.

#482
TheKomandorShepard

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sounds proper. There was a divine that enjoyed burning mages and hereatics so its not "unrealistic" :P

Yes lets compare lynches done on most hated group in thedas to acceptance most hated group in thedas. :rolleyes: 



#483
Andres Hendrix

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.

Oh that Yakov Smirnoff/ Leliana.

   

#484
Caddius

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I believe there was some mention of why they didn't choose the next Divine from among themselves in the game, yes? 

Most of the Grand Clerics were present at the Grand Conclave and died. Most of the upper ranks of the Chantry, the established power blocs, obliterated along with the Divine. Throughout much of Inquisition, the ambitious among the lower ranked clerics are clawing their way to power and desperately establishing new alliances and power bloc, but everything is unsteady. Then the Inquisition's agents become involved, tanking this candidate, discreetly assassinating this anti-Inquisition cleric, backing the dark horse so that the vote will be split, and so on. The moment a new Divine is declared is the moment that the Chantry can have power and authority to truly declare the Inquisition heretical.

After the Inquisition proves itself at the Game in Halamshiral and has the support of the new Orlesian Emperor/the now secure Empress Celene, and the Clerics are in a deadlock, then they turn to the Inquisition for the representatives of the new order. Cassandra and Leliana make sense as candidates. They likely interacted with most of the Chantry elite in the course of their duties, and are familiar with the Divine's job. Leliana in particular is familiar with the new powers and blocs among the Chantry, as she's the one that's been screwing with them and helped keep them in that deadlock. :lol:  Vivienne would make sense when it comes to political skill, but I'm honestly befuddled that a mage could become Divine. Her status quo stance and fighting several rebellions makes it palatable for me, however.

Whether we see it as realistic or not, that seems to be the game's explanation. *shrug*



#485
Bayonet Hipshot

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How the word unrealistic is used as a slogan for only Leliana is laughable. And I see you skipped over my reasoning as to why, and have instead opted to treat me as a Leliana supporter, which I am not. All three choices, as I've already written do not seem to be that great when compared to Giselle. However, each can work to some extent; I will use Leliana as an example because she needs some added consideration. However empirically, there have yet to be any troubles from soft Leliana's reign as Divine. Most of you can't seem to realize that Thedas just went through a blight, a mage templar war, a civil war in Orlais, and the rift crisis. In real "dark and brutal" history, Rome fought 100 years worth of civil wars, by the time Augustus won, the old order was carrion for the birds. Anyone who would have faced him directly were dead, and everyone else was sick of all of the infighting, scorched lands, raped women, dead children etc. So Augusts had the legions, the authoritas and the gravitas and with it he created a new empire out of the skeleton of the SPQR. Leliana seems to be in a similar postion, Augustus did the whole PAX ROMANA thing, and during his reign the only troubles he had, came from his expansion into new territory (mainly Germany), not from civil conflict.  If troubles come with Leliana's rule it will be from her trying to expand the faith (which she wants to do), and she has not been Divine long enough for this to be an issue as her chantry is trying to appropriate all of the new changes, and they still need to rebuild some political ties and some infrastructure. Augustus went through the same thing before he tried to expand Rome.

 

 

This is how I see it as well. The southern part of Thedas has been weakened considerably and maybe weakened even more in the future if Fen'Harel gets his wish of freeing his brethren. 

 

Almost all the players except the Inquisition is down, broken and/or weak. It is essentially a clean sheet situation, a situation where one can start from scratch. Which Leliana does, regardless if she is hardened or softened. 

 

A softened Leliana would most likely employ Josephine-esque diplomacy to get what she wants and we see in game that Josephine is quite effective at getting what she wants to get. Nevertheless, I prefer the hardened ending as it makes Leliana herself somewhat unshakeable and determined in what she wants to accomplish, if you will. 

 

 

Because they are ideologues, OP. Cassandra's rule starts a shadow war; Vivienne's starts a sectarian war, soft Leliana's has peace. Those who disagree with having Leliana as Divine can't say that her rule 'sucks', so instead they  'must' rage against it with their laughable slogan 'unrealistic'.

All three people and Vivienne more so (she is a mage), are 'unrealistic' since none of them are even chantry sisters (Leliana never took her vows) and why should they be the choices when Giselle is just as close to the Inquisitor to be voted for? Giselle has much more experience with the chantry system itself, she is not a glorified bouncer (Cassandra), she is not a glorified assassin (Leliana) she is not an overly politcal mage (Vivienne). Giselle is a chantry mother, someone whose life has been devoted to the Chantry system.

However the devs/writers made those three characters (Viv, Cass, Leli) choices to screw with the player: Gaider said (looking at how he writes it is no surprise) that Cassandra becoming Divine was a bitter sweet ending that he and Patrick implemented. Unlike Morrigan in DAO, I personally felt like it was forced. As for 
Leliana, it is not so bitter for those who romanced her in DAO; there is hope that she changes the marriage ban etc on the Divine. Vivienne does not seem to garner much player attachment but is  a lucrative option for some pro-mage people, (she being the first mage Divine).

So the choices for the Divine were not meant to fit that logically into the narrative, or the history of Thedeas. They were put in to get an emotional and political response from the players. Honestly, everyone would have probably picked Giselle--if the Inquisition still exists who in their right mind would give up a warrior like Cass especially if she is the Inquisitor's lover? And who in their right mind would give up the best spymaster in Thedas, Leliana?

 

You nailed the fundamental issue of this whole Divine business.

 

Bioware no longer makes stories with logical progression, logical choices, logical consequences and logical conclusions. 

 

Bioware's storytelling these days is "FEELS !" + "create dissent amongst players for no reason" + "retcon" + "whitewashing". 

 

I mean, why can't the Inquisitor recommend their own choice for Divine and in doing so, perhaps endorse Mother Gisele for the position ? The Inquisition and the Inquisitor have both the power and the influence to do so, especially by after we complete the mission in Halamshiral. We even saw that in the earlier versions of the game, the Inquisitor could become the Divine.

 

But nope, Bioware just wants to elicit emotions and conflicts from and amongst the player base...Because screw sensible storytelling, shock value ftw.

 

*Disgusted noise* 


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#486
Lady Artifice

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And who in their right mind would give up Vivienne? The Inquisitions best.......... Hmmm, never mind. :P  

 

 

 

I hardly ever used her, which is too bad since I love her voice. lol I think I used her in the Emerald Graves, in the haunted mansion etc.

 

 

 

 

Mad, the both of you. :P

 

She's a machine of utter destruction. 

 

Like The Terminator with fashion sense. 


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#487
Warden Commander Aeducan

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.

*Cassandra version*

 

In Orlesian Chantry, Divine beat the crap out of you.


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#488
Lady Artifice

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Exactly. Of course, on one hand it's probably good that everyone has their pros and cons. But it feels so hamfisted, too ... see the quote from Andres Hendrix and my agreement. If the reason why Mother Giselle is not an option was indeed based on yanking the player's chain in an "A-ha! You thought it was so obvious, which is why we're NOT doing it!" kind of way without giving us a real, credible, in-world reason, I'd be seriously annoyed but maybe not too surprised.

 

And it's very irritating, definitely. They've done this with other things, created conflict between artificially limited options for the sheer sake of drama.

 

I understand that they don't always have a choice, but this one is excessive. 


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#489
Boost32

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In Orlesian Chantry, Divine assassinates you.


In the Imperial Chantry, Divine assassinates you too.

#490
Andres Hendrix

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*Cassandra version*

 

In Orlesian Chantry, Divine beat the crap out of you.

In soviet Orlais, nugs are demigods... :mellow:



#491
Lady Artifice

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A new ritual leading up to the crowning of a new Divine:

 

Prove you can successfully assassinate someone. 

 

Or punch a dragon in the face and survive.

 

Or look effortlessly stylish in plaid/neon orange. 


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#492
dongsaeng

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*Cassandra version*

 

In Orlesian Chantry, Divine beat the crap out of you.

"You're lying!!"

 

*beaten up by Cassandra and lies in a pool of blood*



#493
dongsaeng

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A new ritual leading up to the crowning of a new Divine:

 

Prove you can successfully assassinate someone. 

 

Or punch a dragon in the face and survive.

 

Or look effortlessly stylish in plaid/neon orange. 

lol My Inquisitor pass all those requirements, sad can't she be one :o



#494
Lady Artifice

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lol My Inquisitor pass all those requirements, sad can't she be one :o

 

There was a time when they considered it.  :ph34r:


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#495
Boomshakalakalakaboom

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A new ritual leading up to the crowning of a new Divine:

 

Prove you can successfully assassinate someone. 

 

Or punch a dragon in the face and survive.

 

Or look effortlessly stylish in plaid/neon orange. 

 

I'm sorry, but no one pulls off the plaid.........unless their name is Solas. 

 

Your damn straight I always put Solas in plaid! He wears it like a bad ass mofo! 


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#496
Lady Artifice

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I'm sorry, but no one pulls off the plaid.........unless their name is Solas. 

 

Your damn straight I always put Solas in plaid! He wears it like a bad ass mofo! 

 

Nonsense! Vivienne pulls off anything.

 

But if I can help it, no one gets plaid. I refuse to use the plaid! As a matter of fact, I think I did refuse to use a useful armor for anyone before the tinting came along, just because it was plaidwear. 

 

There will be an ordinance. Anyone found wearing that particular plaid in that particular color in the Inquisition will be reprimanded. 


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#497
Andres Hendrix

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Nonsense! Vivienne pulls off anything.

That's how she snagged Duke Bastien de Ghislain. :whistle:


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#498
Boomshakalakalakaboom

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Nonsense! Vivienne pulls off anything.

 

But if I can help it, no one gets plaid. I refuse to use the plaid! As a matter of fact, I think I did refuse to use a useful armor for anyone before the tinting came along, just because it was plaidwear. 

 

There will be an ordinance. Anyone found wearing that particular plaid in that particular color in the Inquisition will be reprimanded. 

 

Your Inquisitor sounds like a tyrant, to be honest.  :P



#499
Master Warder Z_

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Your Inquisitor sounds like a tyrant, to be honest. :P


<.<

#500
TheKomandorShepard

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This is how I see it as well. The southern part of Thedas has been weakened considerably and maybe weakened even more in the future if Fen'Harel gets his wish of freeing his brethren. 

 

Almost all the players except the Inquisition is down, broken and/or weak. It is essentially a clean sheet situation, a situation where one can start from scratch. Which Leliana does, regardless if she is hardened or softened. 

 

A softened Leliana would most likely employ Josephine-esque diplomacy to get what she wants and we see in game that Josephine is quite effective at getting what she wants to get. Nevertheless, I prefer the hardened ending as it makes Leliana herself somewhat unshakeable and determined in what she wants to accomplish, if you will. 

 

Except Orlais , Nevarra ,Free Marches and even Ferelden what pretty much gives us most of thedas none of them is weak save for ferelden who still would be danger to inquisition. Inquisition wasn't destroyed only because inquisition didn't ****** off people and was standing against common threat the only broken group in inquisition was chantry and in fact it was only group that went against inquisition but couldn't do anything.