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[Lady Artifice]

Sometimes I do ponder just what it would take to actually accumulate the power to actually declare oneself divinity.

Stupidity and baseline suicidal tendencies run rampant in our species; as I said the chosen are a rarity, but they remain bound to the same failing flesh.

Humans are so frail and limited; sudden to frailty and illness...to be God requires something far more then the will, it requires the means.

I've consulted everything from modern geneticists to occult mediums to science fiction and theories abound but the means remain out of reach. To think you can survive, even thrive in life only for the very crucible of your greatness to be your degrading tomb is infuriating.

The mighty rule but they are nothing but humans, it's a issue I've devoted a fair bit of time to rectifying.

I understand the science, but the genome holds no answers, cells degrade, die and the copies of the intrinsic and superior traits return flawed, an increasing degradation.

 

There, there.

 

I'm sorry that you haven't unlocked immortality yet.

 

[Andres Hendrix]

So im the only one who likes plad

It's the orange stuff that makes people commit suicde, and causes the dread wolf to rub his temples with his index and middle fingers...

[raging_monkey]

It's the orange stuff that makes people commit suicde, and causes the dread wolf to rub his temples with his index and middle fingers...

it just looks good to me...

[Master Warder Z_]

There, there.

I'm sorry that you haven't unlocked immortality yet.

I suppose the ages old search continues.

I do have a stand in though.

At clinical brain death I'm to enter cyrostatis until the means to revive me and undue the rigors of aging have been remedied.

I actually sprung for the full body package, I refuse to be a brain in a coffee can.

[Lumix19]

I suppose the ages old search continues.
I do have a stand in though.
At clinical brain death I'm to enter cyrostatis until the means to revive me and undue the rigors of aging have been remedied.
I actually sprung for the full body package, I refuse to be a brain in a coffee can.

Wow. I didn't even know you could get that but apparently the Cryonics Institution will do it.

[wmingua]

I have nothing against Divine Leliana whatsoever. I actually think she's the best of the 3 choices.

 

....But I would've chosen Divine Giselle, if given the chance. I feel like she's the only one we met who might've had the wisdom to do the job.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lately, I've seen posts where people say Leliana will never be divine as she is crazy or her rule is doomed to failure, but her good endings show that not only does her rule not fail but her rule results in Mage freedom and acceptance.

Why do people not like this? I honestly want to know why people seriously isn't like this.

 

Out of curiosity, three days and 22 pages later, did anyone ever bring up the fact that the Leliana epilogue slides do not, in fact, show that her rule doesn't fail or result in lasting mage freedom and acceptance?

 

It's all the the big important caveat words, like '-for now-' and 'For the moment.' Unhardened Leliana has no proof of enduring success- her positions are all cast in terms of being short-term. Even hardened Leliana is indefinite but ambiguous about long-term success. Contrast that to Vivenne, who has the description of "Though difficult for many to accept, a mage sits on the Sunburst Throne and will remain there."

 

Not, mind you, that any Divine is protected from future challenges and failures as the plot demands. But even by the standard of epilogue slides, Leliana's successes have yet to be cast as long-term.

[MisterJB]

lol My Inquisitor pass all those requirements, sad can't she be one

They feared the Inquisitor's sheer weight would break the Sunburst throne and tear the Chantry to pieces.

Basically, they thought you were too fat.

[Xilizhra]

Out of curiosity, three days and 22 pages later, did anyone ever bring up the fact that the Leliana epilogue slides do not, in fact, show that her rule doesn't fail or result in lasting mage freedom and acceptance?

 

It's all the the big important caveat words, like '-for now-' and 'For the moment.' Unhardened Leliana has no proof of enduring success- her positions are all cast in terms of being short-term. Even hardened Leliana is indefinite but ambiguous about long-term success. Contrast that to Vivenne, who has the description of "Though difficult for many to accept, a mage sits on the Sunburst Throne and will remain there."

 

Not, mind you, that any Divine is protected from future challenges and failures as the plot demands. But even by the standard of epilogue slides, Leliana's successes have yet to be cast as long-term.

Well, for one thing, like the dark ritual, the Divine choice won't lead to major consequences in future games, because of too much plot divergence. For another, there'd be no point in Bioware making Leliana a choice for Divine if choosing her would somehow collapse and lead to a return of the status quo.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

They feared the Inquisitor's sheer weight would break the Sunburst throne and tear the Chantry to pieces.

Basically, they thought you were too fat.

That's harsh. My Tal-Vashoth Inquisitor is not fat, he's just big and has a large bone.

[Eliastion]

Well, for one thing, like the dark ritual, the Divine choice won't lead to major consequences in future games, because of too much plot divergence. For another, there'd be no point in Bioware making Leliana a choice for Divine if choosing her would somehow collapse and lead to a return of the status quo.

Well, in DA:O they DID give you at least one important choice that got invalidated (to say the least) right away in the very ending slides - remember bann of Denerim Alienage?

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, for one thing, like the dark ritual, the Divine choice won't lead to major consequences in future games, because of too much plot divergence. For another, there'd be no point in Bioware making Leliana a choice for Divine if choosing her would somehow collapse and lead to a return of the status quo.

 

You argue against yourself in two sentences- not leading to major consequences is leading to a return of the status quo (as defined by the other available end-states, which are far less revolutionary).

 

Divine Leliana not being a major divergence is an argument of bringing her in line with the other Divine's, not the other way around. Since the other Divines are reformists and not radical revolutionaries, that would be an implicit failure of Leliana's ambitions.

 

 

None of which actually addresses the question, or the issue, of what the epilogue slides actually say- or how they can offer all three Divines a chance for failure and future crisis, which would be completely within Bioware's scope and right to progress the setting in the future, much like other Big Decisions they handled. (Dark Ritual, Hawke's alignment in Mage vs Templars, a whole host of ME choices).

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, in DA:O they DID give you at least one important choice that got invalidated (to say the least) right away in the very ending slides - remember bann of Denerim Alienage?

 

Or freedom for Mages, giving the Dalish territory, etc.

[Xilizhra]

You argue against yourself in two sentences- not leading to major consequences is leading to a return of the status quo (as defined by the other available end-states, which are far less revolutionary).

 

Divine Leliana not being a major divergence is an argument of bringing her in line with the other Divine's, not the other way around. Since the other Divines are reformists and not radical revolutionaries, that would be an implicit failure of Leliana's ambitions.

 

 

None of which actually addresses the question, or the issue, of what the epilogue slides actually say- or how they can offer all three Divines a chance for failure and future crisis, which would be completely within Bioware's scope and right to progress the setting in the future, much like other Big Decisions they handled. (Dark Ritual, Hawke's alignment in Mage vs Templars, a whole host of ME choices).

Not quite. The mere fact of Leliana's reforms crumbling would involve a fair bit of violence, given that she's the one in authority, and the situation would be far different from either of the other two Divine paths; in all likelihood, Leliana wouldn't even be able to remain as Divine. However, if things run smoothly, we'd only need a few lines acknowledging it if we set the game in Tevinter, away from any southern Divine's authority.

 

 

Or freedom for Mages, giving the Dalish territory, etc.

Epilogues written without a series in mind. These were.

[Emerald Rift]

I have nothing against Divine Leliana whatsoever. I actually think she's the best of the 3 choices.

 

....But I would've chosen Divine Giselle, if given the chance. I feel like she's the only one we met who might've had the wisdom to do the job.

 

In my first playthrough I actually thought that the plot would go that way with Mother Giselle. I was surprised when Leliana and Cassandra were the ones that were suggested.

[Eliastion]

Or freedom for Mages, giving the Dalish territory, etc.

Well, freedom of mages is a bit more complicated and Dalish territory does happen and works despite things being strained.

Until DA:I comes and just flushes these possibilities down the drain. But it's not collapsing back into status quo as much as apparently never happening while bann of Alienage is (in slides, it was discarded like every other boon) explicitly and unambiguously stated in to be a failure of an undertaking with bann murdered and Crown putting down resulting riots to never speak of elven bann again.

 

Still the habit of completely ignoring past choices/happenings is worrisome in and of itself.

[wmingua]

In my first playthrough I actually thought that the plot would go that way with Mother Giselle. I was surprised when Leliana and Cassandra were the ones that were suggested.

 

Me too, actually! She was a bit of a nag at times, but Mother Giselle seemed like a smart, compassionate, fair woman... and those aren't really the same words I would use to describe Leliana or Cassandra. Giselle would've been more like Justinia than any of them. 

[Bleachrude]

I too as well find the choosing of the Divine very weird....I honestly think you have to contort the situation so the other chantry mothers choose someone outside of their group...remember, none of the options could even lead a chantry or even give out a blessing. .

 

Furthermore, for such a high ranking position, this in our world would entail massive politicking among all the nations (when a new pope was to be chosen in our world, the amount of backroom shenanigans being done by the kings and queens was massive).

 

I can see maybe Cassandra getting support from nations and other chantry mothers since she _IS_ not only the Hero of Orlais (thus, many of the chantry mothers would personally owe her their life along with Celene herself I believe) but ALSO she is a Pentaghast (thus, if would make logical sense for not just Orlais but also Neverra to support Cassandra)

 

But  Leliana? As mentioned, she wasnt even a sister and became the Divine trusted 2nd not because of anything the other chantry mothers would personally know of (remember, technically, not only could Leliana have "left" the DA:O party at Haven/Sacred Ashes but, you could also NOT recruit Leliana so there is no guarantee she is known as a close companion of the Hero of Ferelden)

 

Same thing with Vivienne...Maybe the orlesian chantry mothers that were located in court and thus interacted with her as Celene's advisor but the chantry mothers from Jader? Much less the other ones from outside Orlais? 

[Marcus_Brody]

Me too, actually! She was a bit of a nag at times, but Mother Giselle seemed like a smart, compassionate, fair woman... and those aren't really the same words I would use to describe Leliana or Cassandra. Giselle would've been more like Justinia than any of them. 

Agreed. Mother Giselle would have been the best option. Cassandra and Leliana are not leaders, they can be more useful in other positions(Cassandra leading the new seekers, Leliana as left hand/spy master), and both of them need the Inquisition support.

On the other hand, I think Vivienne is an interesting option, not good or bad, just, interesting to see in the future.

But in general, I think there is going to be all the same: More freedom for the mages, templars rededicated to help people etc, but of course, we know everything will explode eventually.

[Eliastion]

I too as well find the choosing of the Divine very weird....I honestly think you have to contort the situation so the other chantry mothers choose someone outside of their group...remember, none of the options could even lead a chantry or even give out a blessing. .

 

Furthermore, for such a high ranking position, this in our world would entail massive politicking among all the nations (when a new pope was to be chosen in our world, the amount of backroom shenanigans being done by the kings and queens was massive).

 

I can see maybe Cassandra getting support from nations and other chantry mothers since she _IS_ not only the Hero of Orlais (thus, many of the chantry mothers would personally owe her their life along with Celene herself I believe) but ALSO she is a Pentaghast (thus, if would make logical sense for not just Orlais but also Neverra to support Cassandra)

 

But  Leliana? As mentioned, she wasnt even a sister and became the Divine trusted 2nd not because of anything the other chantry mothers would personally know of (remember, technically, not only could Leliana have "left" the DA:O party at Haven/Sacred Ashes but, you could also NOT recruit Leliana so there is no guarantee she is known as a close companion of the Hero of Ferelden)

 

Same thing with Vivienne...Maybe the orlesian chantry mothers that were located in court and thus interacted with her as Celene's advisor but the chantry mothers from Jader? Much less the other ones from outside Orlais? 

Leliana's situation can be explained to an extent (left hand of the Divine, after all - that's a position that makes her somewhat visible as one of two most trusted Justinia's people). But then we have Vivienne...

"Yeah, let's make this mage a Divine, Inquisitor seems to like her."

Or "tolerate", depending on how your approval with her looks like...

I mean... what.

[Arlee]

Unhardened Leliana is actually my second favorite Divine choice, though I do agree with people who say it's too perfect and unrealistic.

 

I really do not like hardened Leliana as Divine though. The whole concept of the Chantry's halls running with blood seems awful. Some people say those people probably needed to die, but honestly any time a ruler leaders through fear and kills all opposition, it inevitably is overthrown. It might take awhile, but it's honestly just a matter of time. So for long term health of the institution Hardened Leliana seems like the worst choice to me; even worse than Vivianne.

[Eliastion]

(...) any time a ruler leaders through fear and kills all opposition, it inevitably is overthrown. It might take awhile, but it's honestly just a matter of time. (...)

Now that's one idealistic assumption  

[Arlee]

Now that's one idealistic assumption

 

History bares that out. Like I said sometimes it take awhile, but it always happens.

[Eliastion]

History bares that out. Like I said sometimes it take awhile, but it always happens.

If you extend "a while" to encompass a couple generations then yes.

[Arlee]

If you extend "a while" to encompass a couple generations then yes.

 

That's not extending awhile I didn't put any limits on it. But like I was saying, my focus is on the long term and what seems to be the best. Though, with all the possibilities of what could be next it's really hard to say which would be "best". Wish we could get one of the writers to comment on which Divine they think is the best with what they know about where the story is going. They'd sadly probably never answer that question though