626 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

That's not extending awhile I didn't put any limits on it. But like I was saying, my focus is on the long term and what seems to be the best. Though, with all the possibilities of what could be next it's really hard to say which would be "best". Wish we could get one of the writers to comment on which Divine they think is the best with what they know about where the story is going. They'd sadly probably never answer that question though

It's probably best that they don't really give their opinion. Besides, it's already been established that Cassandra is the default, presumably because she's the moderate option that's probably easiest to deal with in future titles.

 

In any case, as one who would love to see the Chantry be reduced to scattered churches, I can't say that Hardened Leliana holds no appeal to me.

[Arlee]

It's probably best that they don't really give their opinion. Besides, it's already been established that Cassandra is the default, presumably because she's the moderate option that's probably easiest to deal with in future titles.

 

In any case, as one who would love to see the Chantry be reduced to scattered churches, I can't say that Hardened Leliana holds no appeal to me.

 

Oh? I missed where it was revealed Cassadra was the default... and yea that makes sense. And while I can agree intellectually it's probably good the writers won't share their opinions on who is best, I still really want to know

 

Some people just want to watch the world burn? But I can also definitely understand that viewpoint. I hope they keep up the trend of revealing the real history versus the history most people think they know. That a huge main theme they set-up really well in DAI and depending on where they go now it could be super interesting.

[MisterJB]

Can we trade FutureLeliana for our Leliana? I like her way better.

[Bleachrude]

Leliana's situation can be explained to an extent (left hand of the Divine, after all - that's a position that makes her somewhat visible as one of two most trusted Justinia's people). But then we have Vivienne

 

 

That's my point though...To the other chantry mothers, all that people know about Leliana could be that she was some lay sister from a small village before becoming divine...the more I think about it, the more "wrong" even her being the left hand of the divine becomes....I just remembered, if you did not recruit Leliana, wouldn't this mean that marjolaine would be spreading lies about her treason in Orlais?

 

Potentially, all anyone knows about Leliana is that she was accused of treason in orlais and from that, somehow became the left hand of the divine....yeah, that makes as much sense as Vivenne becoming divine now that I look at little more closer... 

[Eliastion]

That's my point though...To the other chantry mothers, all that people know about Leliana could be that she was some lay sister from a small village before becoming divine...the more I think about it, the more "wrong" even her being the left hand of the divine becomes....I just remembered, if you did not recruit Leliana, wouldn't this mean that marjolaine would be spreading lies about her treason in Orlais?

 

Potentially, all anyone knows about Leliana is that she was accused of treason in orlais and from that, somehow became the left hand of the divine....yeah, that makes as much sense as Vivenne becoming divine now that I look at little more closer... 

Frankly, I would be happy if they just acknowledged what's 100% sure.

Depending on world state Leliana may be the sister that accompanied HoF when he found the urn of Sacred Ashes, then there's her career as Left Hand...

 

Fo Vivienne there's no "best case scenario" that would make her viable as a candidate.

 

Though maybe I'm just bitter because she ninjawon the election in my first PT even though I wasn't even aware she was an option at all...

It felt so ridiculous. 

[Arlee]

Though maybe I'm just bitter because she ninjawon the election in my first PT even though I wasn't even aware she was an option at all...

It felt so ridiculous. 

 

Oh wow... I didn't think she could become Divine unless you specifically supported her. That would ****** me off too.

[Master Warder Z_]

Wow. I didn't even know you could get that but apparently the Cryonics Institution will do it.

What whole body cyrostatis?

[Shechinah]

(to Bleachrude) This is something that only comes up in the "Leliana's Song" DLC but when Leliana was betrayed by Majorlaine and thrown into a dungeon, she was helped by a Chantry Mother named Dorothea to escape. Said Chantry Mother had been seduced by Majorlaine into giving her documents and so Dorothea knew of Majorlaine's treason and Leliana's innocence. Dorothea would later become Divine Justinia V, the very same Divine whom Leliana served as Hand to.

[Xilizhra]

Can we trade FutureLeliana for our Leliana? I like her way better.

Planning on having a strangled corpse in a box be Divine?

[MisterJB]

And it would still do a better job than Leliana.

[LPPrince]

I ended up with an unhardened Leliana as Divine and I'm good with it.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Well this thread certainly answered my questions p

[raging_monkey]

Well this thread certainly answered my questions p

glad to be of help (fights withholding)

[segurissima]

I for one, would like to get one single palythrough where I get her as divine, whatever I do, I get Cassandra.every.single.time.......

[dragonflight288]

I've had Vivienne and Cassandra as Divine and now it's Leliana's turn. 

 

I'm judging for myself, in the context of the choices I made in the game leading up to it, which Divine I prefer.

[Lady Artifice]

Well this thread certainly answered my questions p

 

Was the answer "The world BSN is a crazy, crazy place?"

[DKJaigen]

Leliana is the best choice. i have heard people saying its unrealistic but use your head. She is a frigging spymaster with a tremendous amount of contacts. cuddly lels or darth lels she likely pulled strings or cut throats behind the scenes to make it work.

 

And the whole pro templar argument that mages cannot rule themselves is long discredited with the fact that the tevinter society exist ( who is not nearly as corrupt as we once thought btw)  if the tevinters can build a stable society then why not the southern mages?

 

 

Cassandra definitely has her heart at the right place but she wishes to return to the status quo that brought the mage templar war in the first place. under her the system will work but what about her successors? And Vivienne scares the bejezus out of me. She will likely and unwittingly start a tevinter imperium 2. Mages will likely get embroiled in politics so much they need to play the game and assure their is a continued mage divine or at least a mage friendly dvine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana is the best choice. i have heard people saying its unrealistic but use your head. She is a frigging spymaster with a tremendous amount of contacts. cuddly lels or darth lels she likely pulled strings or cut throats behind the scenes to make it work.

 

And the whole pro templar argument that mages cannot rule themselves is long discredited with the fact that the tevinter society exist ( who is not nearly as corrupt as we once thought btw)  if the tevinters can build a stable society then why not the southern mages?

 

 

Cassandra definitely has her heart at the right place but she wishes to return to the status quo that brought the mage templar war in the first place. under her the system will work but what about her successors? And Vivienne scares the bejezus out of me. She will likely and unwittingly start a tevinter imperium 2. Mages will likely get embroiled in politics so much they need to play the game and assure their is a continued mage divine or at least a mage friendly dvine.

Unless leliana can put down majority of people in thedas no but you probably think she can and it is realistic...

 

Tevinter is nest of blood magic and of corruption not mention that those guys almost destroyed world and another guy from tevinter tried brainwash whole humanity and somehow i fail to see how they aren't corrupted as series claims them to be when we saw in fact it is even heard from Dorian.

[Arlee]

I for one, would like to get one single palythrough where I get her as divine, whatever I do, I get Cassandra.every.single.time.......

 

Have you told Leliana you would support her and told Cassandra she shouldn't be Divine? For me it always seems to make a big difference.

 

Cassandra definitely has her heart at the right place but she wishes to return to the status quo that brought the mage templar war in the first place. under her the system will work but what about her successors? And Vivienne scares the bejezus out of me. She will likely and unwittingly start a tevinter imperium 2. Mages will likely get embroiled in politics so much they need to play the game and assure their is a continued mage divine or at least a mage friendly dvine.

 

Ummm, Cassandra is not the status quo choice. She recognizes the failings of how the system worked before and fixes them. Just the exitance of the Templars and the Circles isn't the problem. It's how they were funtioning that was an issue.

[Andreas Amell]

If the saga ended with Inquisition I'd have chosen Leiliana, just as likely as choosing Cassandra. But since there's more adventure ahead I needed a Divine who could reign in the Chantry and lessen any future troubles I might have. The last thing I want to do afterwards is have to deal more Templar/Mage/Chantry issues after all this.

[Eliastion]

(...)

And the whole pro templar argument that mages cannot rule themselves is long discredited with the fact that the tevinter society exist ( who is not nearly as corrupt as we once thought btw)  if the tevinters can build a stable society then why not the southern mages?

(...)

As pro-mage-freedom as I am, "stable society" isn't necessarily a strong argument - and Tevinter is an awful example. Yes, it's stable. Yes, it has considerable power even long after it's fall from the world-shaking power it once were. No, we wouldn't want something like that.

Also, Circle system was relatively stable and Qunari system is relatively stable - pretty much every system that exists, from Tevinter (mages uncontested for power) to Rivain to Chantry Circles to Qunari (mages effectively denied status of people) - each and every of these systems proved to work. Each of them is stable enough to last literally centuries if not millennia with relatively minor adjustments and changes. The youngest of them (Circles) is twice as old as Ferelden as a unified country.

 

My opinion on Circles (understood as they were up to this point) isn't that they can't work. It's that they should not be allowed to work. I believe the system to be as rotten as Tevinter, completely disgusting both in practice and in theory and very wasteful - mages are undertrained, benefits of magic unavailable to society at large, magical research hardly exists at all, and all kinds of magical incidents when they happen are a "great surprise" nobody can really deal with appropriately. Templars have their training but prove to be hardly adequate with their limited powers while mages, on the other hand, are kept completely in the dark since any serious, objective (that is, allowed to question Chantry dogma) research on matters like spirits has halted long ago, not to mention academic study of Blood Magic that - if pursued - could likely allow at the very least replication of Litany of Adralla, an already existing solution to many abomination- and blood magic-related problems... if only Circles managed to replicate it! But it's not only not replicated, but apparently kinda out of grace - imagine how many lives could be saved in Fereldan Circle if Knight Commander had it on him and understood its value right from the beginning. But it's connected to blood magic, so it was apparently locked somewhere and forgotten by most people...

Circle system is repulsive and has a really steep price for its limited advantages, but (as I said) it's not - by its nature - unstable. And the worst abuses were, in fact, abuses of the system rather than its integral part. And a couple centuries of any system are bound to breed some abuses - sometimes they are dealt with as they appear, sometimes (when more elements of a system happen to fail simultaneously) they are not and system collapses. But such a collapse doesn't mean that the system can't be more-or-less re-created if appropriate people deem it appropriate course of action and are willing to make adjustments to get rid of immediate causes for the collapse as well as some a bit deeper hidden roots.

 

Oh, and one more thing - there's no saying how stable modern Tevinter would be if not for Qunari. From what we hear it's highly dysfunctional at this moment, but so it happens that mages are the main weapon Tevinter has to offset Qunari dominance at other fields (namely, non-magical technology). This keeps Magisters in power. I wouldn't bet they would last long if Qunari were to disappear... It's not untinkable that winning the war now would end up with collapse of Tevene society. Even now we hear of slave revolts once in a while...

[Xilizhra]

The unrealistic argument isn't about her or her competence. 

 

Not to me it isn't. I think she's fine. I just expect more of an uphill battle. It's not Leliana so much, as it is the millions of others in Southern Thedas. And having millions to come to this level of tolerance so quickly. She could convince a lot of people, but it is hard to believe this much. 

 

Secondly, it just makes the mage/templar war look pointless. All of this cool setup and drama, only to be resolved like this. It's kind of anticlimatic. Why did we even bother with war, when the solution was easily right here before our eyes all this time!

 

It makes people happy.. and I understand. And maybe that should be good enough. I just don't think anyone's happiness makes for good (or at least clever) storytelling.

Well, the solution was pretty much the slaughter of the Chantry's top hierarchy and a huge war. I don't think it was something anyone could have done or known of beforehand.

[Lumix19]

As pro-mage-freedom as I am, "stable society" isn't necessarily a strong argument - and Tevinter is an awful example. Yes, it's stable. Yes, it has considerable power even long after it's fall from the world-shaking power it once were. No, we wouldn't want something like that.
Also, Circle system was relatively stable and Qunari system is relatively stable - pretty much every system that exists, from Tevinter (mages uncontested for power) to Rivain to Chantry Circles to Qunari (mages effectively denied status of people) - each and every of these systems proved to work. Each of them is stable enough to last literally centuries if not millennia with relatively minor adjustments and changes. The youngest of them (Circles) is twice as old as Ferelden as a unified country.

My opinion on Circles (understood as they were up to this point) isn't that they can't work. It's that they should not be allowed to work. I believe the system to be as rotten as Tevinter, completely disgusting both in practice and in theory and very wasteful - mages are undertrained, benefits of magic unavailable to society at large, magical research hardly exists at all, and all kinds of magical incidents when they happen are a "great surprise" nobody can really deal with appropriately. Templars have their training but prove to be hardly adequate with their limited powers while mages, on the other hand, are kept completely in the dark since any serious, objective (that is, allowed to question Chantry dogma) research on matters like spirits has halted long ago, not to mention academic study of Blood Magic that - if pursued - could likely allow at the very least replication of Litany of Adralla, an already existing solution to many abomination- and blood magic-related problems... if only Circles managed to replicate it! But it's not only not replicated, but apparently kinda out of grace - imagine how many lives could be saved in Fereldan Circle if Knight Commander had it on him and understood its value right from the beginning. But it's connected to blood magic, so it was apparently locked somewhere and forgotten by most people...
Circle system is repulsive and has a really steep price for its limited advantages, but (as I said) it's not - by its nature - unstable. And the worst abuses were, in fact, abuses of the system rather than its integral part. And a couple centuries of any system are bound to breed some abuses - sometimes they are dealt with as they appear, sometimes (when more elements of a system happen to fail simultaneously) they are not and system collapses. But such a collapse doesn't mean that the system can't be more-or-less re-created if appropriate people deem it appropriate course of action and are willing to make adjustments to get rid of immediate causes for the collapse as well as some a bit deeper hidden roots.

Oh, and one more thing - there's no saying how stable modern Tevinter would be if not for Qunari. From what we hear it's highly dysfunctional at this moment, but so it happens that mages are the main weapon Tevinter has to offset Qunari dominance at other fields (namely, non-magical technology). This keeps Magisters in power. I wouldn't bet they would last long if Qunari were to disappear... It's not untinkable that winning the war now would end up with collapse of Tevene society. Even now we hear of slave revolts once in a while...

I'm not totally sure. I think the system of the Circle has become intolerable, not just because of the abuses but because the mages, and Thedosian society, has changed. The system might have been useful 900 years ago when the people were just breaking free of the Imperium and lashing out against any mage in sight, but much as changed since then and mages are no longer willing to give up their freedom for supposed protection (which in some cases they're not even getting). There's a codex entry from an Aequitarian concerning the Circles and it makes an excellent point that the system failed across the board, from the most lenient Circle in Ferelden, to the most stringent Circle in Kirkwall. In both cases the mages became unwilling to remain in the Circle any longer and I doubt that will change except with the most drastic of reforms.