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Why are people so opposed to Divine Leliana?


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#576
Drasanil

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Secondly, it just makes the mage/templar war look pointless. All of this cool setup and drama, only to be resolved like this. It's kind of anticlimatic. Why did we even bother with war, when the solution was easily right here before our eyes all this time!

 

It's kind of funny that after Bioware said there would be no peaceful resolution to mage/templar fight because they didn't care for ME's Geth/Qurians peace. They go a head and implement an ending where Leliana completely undoes centuries bigotry, prejudice, ignorance and recriminations with a few cuddly-wuddly words. 

 

I guess who ever wrote the epilogues didn't get the memo?


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#577
teh DRUMPf!!

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They go a head and implement an ending where Leliana completely undoes centuries bigotry, prejudice, ignorance and recriminations with a few cuddly-wuddly words.

 

Softened Leliana's ending rather plainly leaves the door open for things going south eventually.

 

The epilogue slides really do not validate anyone's stance on the mage issue one way or another. It was all cleverly worded so anyone can believe whatever they want to. I mean, just as a staunch pro-rebel player can believe that this epilogue is one of eternal peace between mages and mundanes, I can instead believe that it will lead to Tevinter South. The epilogue does not contradict either interpretation from being applicable. Besides which, when have the writers ever stuck to the literal words of their epilogues? That is why I have to laugh at folks like zomgimsuperdarkguise who are claiming victory over nothing.



#578
Drasanil

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Softened Leliana's ending rather plainly leaves the door open for things going south eventually.

 

The epilogue slides really do not validate anyone's stance on the mage issue one way or another. It was all cleverly worded so anyone can believe whatever they want to. I mean, just as a staunch pro-rebel player can believe that this epilogue is one of eternal peace between mages and mundanes, I can instead believe that it will lead to Tevinter South. The epilogue does not contradict either interpretation from being applicable. Besides which, when have the writers ever stuck to the literal words of their epilogues? That is why I have to laugh at folks like zomgimsuperdarkguise who are claiming victory over nothing.

 

I agree with you up to a point. However, that doesn't stop the implausible rainbow and carebears ending from being 'legit' until said next game comes out and undoes it.

 

That aside, the writers really should put some effort into writing more reasonable epilogues that are coherent with their vision for future games [as opposed to completely divergent ones], especially if they're going to largely do what they want down the roads any ways.  


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#579
Vit246

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Even though I like Divine Leliana and prefer her above the others, her reign as Divine feels too much rainbows-and-unicorns. Centuries of prejudice, religious indoctrination, and fear-mongering do not just go away just like that. Even with a portion of the muggle population being sympathetic to mages.

But then again, this is Bioware we are talking about. And I think I'm beginning to understand how Bioware's mindset works.


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#580
Xilizhra

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Softened Leliana's ending rather plainly leaves the door open for things going south eventually.

 

The epilogue slides really do not validate anyone's stance on the mage issue one way or another. It was all cleverly worded so anyone can believe whatever they want to. I mean, just as a staunch pro-rebel player can believe that this epilogue is one of eternal peace between mages and mundanes, I can instead believe that it will lead to Tevinter South. The epilogue does not contradict either interpretation from being applicable. Besides which, when have the writers ever stuck to the literal words of their epilogues? That is why I have to laugh at folks like zomgimsuperdarkguise who are claiming victory over nothing.

The DAO epilogues weren't listed in the Keep; the DAI ones are. I very much doubt these will be thrown away.



#581
Marcus_Brody

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I think the conflict betwen mages and templars is dead and buried, and I´m happy with that, maybe even we can left behind those pro-templar vs pro-mages threads.

In most endings, both factions lose a lot of power, free mages means that mages will have organizations, guilds etc, but they will be free to act in their own interests or beliefs, wich keep the mages united was the fact that they were oppressed, and templars end divided between the new order, the Inquisition and the new seekers, more focused in helping people.

Maybe the exception is having Vivienne as Divine.

But I think in the future we will face an invasion(maybe the qunari, or the powers beyond the sea or a new Blight) and I can see both former enemies cooperating.



#582
DanteYoda

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Man.... i was so happy Leliana became the devine, i hope she kills the whole damn lot.. :lol: :devil:


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#583
TheKomandorShepard

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The DAO epilogues weren't listed in the Keep; the DAI ones are. I very much doubt these will be thrown away.

No they aren't only choices are in the keep not epilogues and this is the same for dao. 



#584
Xilizhra

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No they aren't only choices are in the keep not epilogues and this is the same for dao. 

DAO's boon choices weren't in the Keep either.



#585
TheKomandorShepard

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DAO's boon choices weren't in the Keep either.

And? Epilogues in dao were thrown out of the window whether choices they based on are in keep or not.



#586
Xilizhra

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And? Epilogues in dao were thrown out of the window whether choices they were based on are in keep or not.

But nothing that was a direct and desired consequence of any choice was thrown out, aside from the non-recorded boons. Bhelen is still a competent ruler, for instance. The only things that were thrown out were random side effects, like "Cullen becomes a serial killer."



#587
Dr. Rush

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Leliana represents the radical change that society often needs but cannot handle. She has the conviction to forcibly change people's beliefs and ultimately change the direction and tone of the DA lore. Not significantly I mean, but her presence as the Divine won't be insignificant.

 

Frankly though, I think everyone is just butthurt over the Divine choice mechanic. People flip out over Cass, VIv and Leliana, which means, they aren't flipping out over the character, but over the mechanic that chooses them. It is a weird mechanic that has never been used before and basically tells the player, despite what you might think, "this is our interpretation of your values, and now you are stuck with this choice we made for you"

 

Its not the best mechanic and can definitely use some more polish and refinement. It also should maybe not be used on one of the most important choices in the game, as that definitely takes agency directly away from the player. I want more agency, not less.

 

 

Lastly, as I've said before, if Leliana is killed in DAO, then she should automatically become Divine. If she is going to be spared by the Maker, then it should be for a meaningful reason, and making her Divine would justify that DAO retcon that David Gaider and other DA devs have so fervently defended. 



#588
Fiery Phoenix

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Leliana represents the radical change that society often needs but cannot handle. She has the conviction to forcibly change people's beliefs and ultimately change the direction and tone of the DA lore. Not significantly I mean, but her presence as the Divine won't be insignificant.

 

Frankly though, I think everyone is just butthurt over the Divine choice mechanic. People flip out over Cass, VIv and Leliana, which means, they aren't flipping out over the character, but over the mechanic that chooses them. It is a weird mechanic that has never been used before and basically tells the player, despite what you might think, "this is our interpretation of your values, and now you are stuck with this choice we made for you"

 

Its not the best mechanic and can definitely use some more polish and refinement. It also should maybe not be used on one of the most important choices in the game, as that definitely takes agency directly away from the player. I want more agency, not less.

That is indeed a fundamental issue with the Divine selection process; the mechanic through which the game determines your Divine is vague and poorly executed. There's essentially no way to know which of the three potential Divines you're going to get until the credits roll.

 

Why BioWare thought it was a good idea to design such a major choice that way is beyond me, but there it is.


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#589
TheKomandorShepard

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But nothing that was a direct and desired consequence of any choice was thrown out, aside from the non-recorded boons. Bhelen is still a competent ruler, for instance. The only things that were thrown out were random side effects, like "Cullen becomes a serial killer."

Only choice was kept not epilogue that devs later confirmed as just rumors.Keep just records choices you have made so no presence of choice in the keep don't confirm in any way consequences presented in epilogue.  



#590
Master Warder Z_

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Nickolai the vodka guy survived in cannon

#591
TK514

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I just have a difficult time taking Divine Easily Manipulated but Good at Killing seriously as the Great Orator her fluffy happy rainbows and nugs ending would suggest.

 

She certainly never shows any facility for being effective at anything but her job as Justinia's knife in the dark.  We are told she's supposedly a good spymistress, but we have to resolve any issues for her.  And if we don't, she defaults to Divine Rivers of Blood.

 

Now, had Varric been elected Divine, I could buy the whole 'He talked to them for a bit, and now we're all friends", because we've been shown on a couple of different occasions that Varric can talk anyone out of anything.

 

Maybe that's Divine Schmooples' secret.  She got Varric to handle all the negotiations, and he let her take credit.


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#592
Eliastion

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(...)

Maybe that's Divine Schmooples' secret.  She got Varric to handle all the negotiations, and he let her take credit.

You made ma imagine Varrick in that funny chancellor's hat...


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#593
TK514

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You made ma imagine Varrick in that funny chancellor's hat...

 

My work here is done.



#594
Korva

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Your condescending comparison to Cassandra and Giselle, how exactly have they critically examined their beliefs?

Cassandra knows she's not a flawless arbiter of what is right or true, that there is no way to be sure one is doing the Maker's work and that one must keep searching -- and she suspects the Seekers lost their way because they stopped searching. Giselle is very frank about how the Chant has been meddled with in the name of power-play and politics, and she's also able to explain her faith in different ways and on different levels. Considering the fact that Leliana gets a lot more lines in Origins and Inquisition combined yet never shows any signs of critically engaging with what she believes in while those two who get significantly less screen time do, I hardly think it's a stretch to see her as someone whose faith is purely a matter of emotion, of wanting acceptance and purpose, because that is all she has ever shown me.

 

At any rate, you keep ignoring my point with your talk about "objective truth". I have specifically stated that I'm not looking at this from my perspective as a RL atheist, but from the POV of the Andrastian faith as we know it. What I expect from Leliana is not the presentation of "objective truth", it is the demonstration of a willingness to at least try to reconcile her own need for unconditional love with what the commonly accepted religious canon of her faith says. Back in Origins, there's a conversation between her and Wynne in which the latter points out that Leliana's beliefs contradict the Chantry's teachings, and Leliana just handwaves it away. She's gotta do better than that if she want do lead this religion. After all, if she can contradict the Chant on a whim, anyone can do the same and proclaim it to be the Maker's will. Might as well throw the whole thing out altogether, it would be more honest.

 

As for Leliana putting herself on the same level as Andraste, she never claimed to be a prophet. Considering the PC plays an Inquisitor under the title Herald of Andraste and used that posturing to gather an army, that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?

 

She claims to have received signs and dreams, which is pretty much the same as claiming to be a prophet. And guess what? The fact that the whole "Herald" business is so casually accepted by everyone around us except by a few antagonistic outsiders is one of my biggest disappointments with the entire game's story. I really wish we had been able to deeply engage with the matter, struggle with it, see the same struggle reflected in our companions, advisors, and followers, in the people who depend on us but are afraid to follow a heretic yet also afraid of insulting us. It could have made so many waves in so many situations, for good or ill. Instead it's little more than a hollow ego-stroke on top of a mountain of wasted potential.

 

I don't know how one can accuse Leliana on charges of tyranny. Her whole platform is based on encouraging good and not dictating it. Barring her hardened ending where she uses assassins, she is the least militaristic divine and has no army to bludgeon anyone to accept her beliefs.

 

Leliana is Leliana. The "hardened" version is not a different person, it's just the other side of the same coin -- a coin which has been flipped often enough to leave me extremely dubious of her ability to remain "softened" this time around. In fact, the "hardened" side is pretty much the "default" side in this game since you need to sway her away from it and that is easy to mess up. "Softened" Leliana is not a tyrant, but she has the very strong potential to become one, and the knowledge, skills and connections too.

 

Also who are you to dictate what is canonical to the Chant of the Light? Even the current Chant of the Light is a bunch of revised  and edited bullshit used to sway the masses for political expediency with various interpretations by various cults.

 

... which has been part of my point all along, you know. :rolleyes: And it is still no excuse for picking and choosing based on one's own fancy, especially not for someone who wants to be a religious leader.

 

You state that being religious isn't about what a person wants but to do the Maker's will. Well what if the Maker wants you to think for yourself?

 

I'm surprised you managed to copy-paste that big quote and still miss several key aspects of it. Punishment, making this world reflect his glory, the admonishment to master one's own desires, honoring at a distance, the failure of acting on pitiful instinct and looking to the Maker to fulfill our needs and not his. All that directly flies in the face of following one's own emotions and of proclaiming direct divine inspiration, both of which Leliana keeps doing.

 

I want to like her vision for her faith, but for the nth time: I also want to see her engage with what said faith actually says instead of waving away anything that does not suit her, with no explanation or examination that we ever see.



#595
Xilizhra

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Being Divine isn't about the Maker, it's about the Chantry, the faithful, and the direction they take. The Maker is absence, and if the bastard is going to stay that way, what does it matter? Given that none of my Inquisitors are Andrastian (even the human one has walked away from faith by the end), I can't imagine any of them particularly caring how closely Leliana would stick to doctrine.



#596
TK514

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DAO's boon choices weren't in the Keep either.

 

Why would they include something in the Keep they had already discarded years ago?  There are things in the Keep currently that weren't in any way reflected in Inquisition, and they've said in interviews that not everything in the keep will be carried forward.  Right now, the Inquisition section of the Keep is little more than a 'maybe' collection point, waiting for them to decide what to prune once they determine the details that apply to the future of the setting. 



#597
Xilizhra

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Why would they include something in the Keep they had already discarded years ago?  There are things in the Keep currently that weren't in any way reflected in Inquisition, and they've said in interviews that not everything in the keep will be carried forward.  Right now, the Inquisition section of the Keep is little more than a 'maybe' collection point, waiting for them to decide what to prune once they determine the details that apply to the future of the setting. 

Which also brings around the question of "Why would Leliana be included as a choice if her plan alone would fail, while Cassandra's and Vivienne's would succeed?"



#598
TK514

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Which also brings around the question of "Why would Leliana be included as a choice if her plan alone would fail, while Cassandra's and Vivienne's would succeed?"

 

I'm not sure any of them will succeed wholly, but Lel's plans have to most room to fail spectacularly.



#599
The Baconer

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Which also brings around the question of "Why would Leliana be included as a choice if her plan alone would fail, while Cassandra's and Vivienne's would succeed?"

 

I wouldn't really count on Cassandra and Vivienne succeeding. Especially the latter.



#600
teh DRUMPf!!

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Which also brings around the question of "Why would Leliana be included as a choice if her plan alone would fail, while Cassandra's and Vivienne's would succeed?"

 

For throwaway dialogue and/or meaningless codex-entries/passing-notes alluding to the choice while the story moves away from this region of Thedas altogether, I figure -- success/failure irrelevant (if the reign of any given Divine Victoria is even elaborated on at all).