626 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana isn't a complete blunt instrument socially, unlike one, and isn't a mage, unlike the other.

Also, the system was already uprooted. Leliana actually has less work to do than the others, because she doesn't have to rebuild the Circles.

Don't forget how the people consider you to be the Herald and thus your actions symbolizing what the Maker thinks. That pretty much means that if you support mages, the sheeple will think "Hey, if the Herald supports mages, then the Maker must support mages!" which explains how Leliana becomes Divine, not to mention how if you side with the mages they help the Herald stop Corypheus and save the world. That no doubt helped.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I disagree, its not so obvious. Having Alistair on the throne means he becomes the face of the government and is involved in diplomatic meetings. The war table mission to make peace between Ferelden and Orlais outlines his prescence made the talks a struggle. Then theres the comics with his whole adventure to Antiva and Tevinter instead of ruling his country, where he walks into a room full of Magisters, announces his Kingly presence and makes it clear he's there to kill one of them.. 
Then theres that random visit to Kirkwall where he's there looking for allies except he never asks for an alliance and its plainly evident the Templars control the city. 

Except in DAO, having Hardened Alistair and Anora marry is very clearly the best choice. Eamon mentions that it would remove practically all opposition by those who want a Theirin on the throne and those who support Anora so their marriage would pretty much remove possible opposition that only choosing one could create. Plus, Alistair's personal nature with Anora's political thinking winds up creating a balanced rule. It's mentioned in the epilogue, the codex, and the Keep that Alistair and Anora ruling together creates a new golden age.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana is the only option that has any real chance of bringing peace and stability to Thedas.

I do NOT trust Vivienne. My interpretation of her character was that she opposed the Circles breaking away from the Chantry not because she truly believed in the Chantry, but because she'd lose her power and prestige as First Enchanter and court Mage to the Empress. She's not so much a Chantry Loyalist as someone who sees the Chantry as a path to her own personal power. That is ALL Vivienne truly cares about. She lived her life in the lap of luxury, with no experience or concern about the abuses that OTHER Mages in Thedas were suffering through. She wants power and authority, and has no concern for those who are hurt as a result. As Divine, she basically returns things to the way they were previously, recreates the same system that led to the rebellion and war. Most Mages are NOT going to return to the Circles, and even if she manages peace for a time, ultimately the same excesses and abuses on part of the Chantry and the Templars WILL become inevitable, and Thedas WILL be right back to war. The chances of the war restarting before Vivienne dies is pretty close to 100%. Honestly, in my opinion, Vivienne is worse than Corypheus. As bad as he is, at least he is motivated by some twisted belief that the world would be a better place with him as a god. Vivienne only wants power for her OWN benefit.

Cassandra is a better choice than Vivienne, but still has problems. Cassandra means well, but her reforms will ultimately be a stopgap. Templars or no, Mages are NOT going to return to the Circle system in large numbers, and they will not agree to be under Chantry oversight for long. Peace may last for longer due to Cassandra's reforms, but the abuse will inevitably happen again, and war between the Mages and the Chantry will ultimately return to Thedas, just as with Vivienne. maybe just not as soon. While her time as Divine will likely be relatively peaceful, there is nothing to stop Cassandra's successor, or some future Divine, from undoing her reforms, and restoring the same oppressive system that led to the Mage/Templar war in the first place.

Leliana ends the Circle system and disbands the Templars. While that may not seem the best option, it's the only one that will promise any true peace. The Chantry's actions have shown that it can NOT be trusted to properly police and protect Mages, that it will WILL eventually abuse it's power. The Mages are not going to tolerate that abuse. Allowing that same repressive system to return will just be doing it all over again. To have a chance at peace, Mages MUST be outside of Chantry authority. Period. Leliana's extensive reforms, and the alliance of the Mages and the Chantry with the Inquisition, allows for stability, as each group can serve as a check on the excesses of the others. The New Seekers of Truth can help to prevent the rise of Maleficars, the Inquisition can stop the Chantry from becoming too powerful again, preventing their excesses, and the Mages could serve to police the Inquisition and keep THEM from getting abusive and repressive. These reforms are the only chance there is at preventing the war from restarting, and the only chance at any real long term peace. While the possibility remains that the conflict will restart under Leliana anyway, it is still just a possibility, as opposed to the absolute certainty that will result from Vivienne's appointment as Divine.

Leliana is a gentle person who often sees the best in everyone. She also has the instincts to know when to use a firm hand. She understands that there is a time and place for force, and will not use it unless it's absolutely necessary. She's a good hearted and idealistic person, but one who nonetheless is pragmatic when she needs to be. And that makes her the best choice to prevent a war. 

[Augustei]

Except in DAO, having Hardened Alistair and Anora marry is very clearly the best choice. Eamon mentions that it would remove practically all opposition by those who want a Theirin on the throne and those who support Anora so their marriage would pretty much remove possible opposition that only choosing one could create. Plus, Alistair's personal nature with Anora's political thinking winds up creating a balanced rule. It's mentioned in the epilogue, the codex, and the Keep that Alistair and Anora ruling together creates a new golden age.

No the golden age is with The Warden and Anora, Theres no mention of A golden age for Alistair and Anora, And ofc Eamon would say that, he's one of those Theirin supporters. Executing Alistair deprives him of that candidate and since Alistair is the last theirin it leaves him no other options but to back the politically competent Anora.
What type of balanced rule is needed? Anora is a skilled diplomat and has the skills needed for the crown, Whereas Alistair's "personal touch" has Ferelden at risk of war with Antiva having killed their prince, at risk of war with Tevinter having killed a room full of magisters, and at risk of war with Orlais being a jeopardy to the peace talks as the war table makes clear. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

No the golden age is with The Warden and Anora, Theres no mention of A golden age for Alistair and Anora, And ofc Eamon would say that, he's one of those Theirin supporters. Executing Alistair deprives him of that candidate and since Alistair is the last theirin it leaves him no other options but to back the politically competent Anora.
What type of balanced rule is needed? Anora is a skilled diplomat and has the skills needed for the crown, Whereas Alistair's "personal touch" has Ferelden at risk of war with Antiva having killed their prince, at risk of war with Tevinter having killed a room full of magisters, and at risk of war with Orlais being a jeopardy to the peace talks as the war table makes clear. 

Have you actually read the codexes or the keep summary for Alistair and Anora ruling together?

[TEWR]

How was it assassinated?

 

Basically her entire perspective was Flanderized I think, where she's either extremely ruthless or goody-two-shoes idealistic and believes she can change the world with a few nice words. Leliana could be cold, to be sure, and certainly idealistic... but she was always grounded. She was never what Inquisition paints her as.

 

And they make her seem so.... out of character in some of her war table missions. It's a lot to get into and I'm unable to do it now, partially because I only have a little bit going on in my head and partially because I'm really tired.

 

The reality is that people are not going to change their tune so easily, just because of a few nice words. Hundreds of years of anti-magic sentiment won't just vanish over the course of a few months because the Mages haven't done anything. You have to teach change. 

 

Look at our own world. Homophobia, racism, etc.... these things are only just beginning to be uprooted in favor of equality, but we're not done yet. There's still a long road to travel.

[Augustei]

Have you actually read the codexes or the keep summary for Alistair and Anora ruling together?

Yes I have.
Have you? Theres no mention of a golden age in any of them. Go back and read them for yourself.
And then read the comics and play the peace talks war table mission where the above mentioned occur. 

[jlb524]

Don't forget how the people consider you to be the Herald and thus your actions symbolizing what the Maker thinks. That pretty much means that if you support mages, the sheeple will think "Hey, if the Herald supports mages, then the Maker must support mages!" which explains how Leliana becomes Divine, not to mention how if you side with the mages they help the Herald stop Corypheus and save the world. That no doubt helped.

 

Yeah, I thought that was the whole point of the Divine point system and Inquisitor's choices influencing the the decision.

 

Of course, Leliana's reforms wouldn't work as well if the Templars were allied with and other 'status quo' choices were made by the Inquisitor (that's why she doesn't get picked in that case) but in a world with allied mages things are different.  People seem to miss this point and think there's "the best option" regardless of what happens.

 

 

The problem I have with Leliana's epilogue is that despite uprooting the entire system from its core, she receives far less opposition than Cassandra and Vivienne, whose reforms are quite moderate in comparison.

 

In other words, the issue lies with the narrative and not the character herself. 

 

I'd agree if this change happened 10 years ago.  The system is already uprooted thanks to wars, the Divine's death, Coryphaces's antics, etc.  Bringing any stability is welcome and in a world where the mages helped close the Breach and are supported by the Inquisition, attitudes towards giving mages freedom will be different than if none of that happened.  Trying to uproot the system when things were relatively stable (like I said, 10 years ago) wouldn't work obviously.

[Snook]

When people say it will never work, they are pretty much asking for it. You also forget the time a pro-templar supporter got Leliana as Divine and went on a rant saying their character never would have supported this and would commit suicide to ensure mages would never be free.

 

And funnily enough, I'm yet to see these people going around into every thread they can trying to convince people that their ending is the only correct one like you do. I'm yet to see a person who cares as much about what other people do in their games as you.

 

So yes. I'm willing to bet the majority of the 'reaction' you keep asking about would be your gloating. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

 Most Mages are NOT going to return to the Circles,

 

Sure they are.

[Xilizhra]

Basically her entire perspective was Flanderized I think, where she's either extremely ruthless or goody-two-shoes idealistic and believes she can change the world with a few nice words. Leliana could be cold, to be sure, and certainly idealistic... but she was always grounded. She was never what Inquisition paints her as.

 

And they make her seem so.... out of character in some of her war table missions. It's a lot to get into and I'm unable to do it now, partially because I only have a little bit going on in my head and partially because I'm really tired.

 

The reality is that people are not going to change their tune so easily, just because of a few nice words. Hundreds of years of anti-magic sentiment won't just vanish over the course of a few months because the Mages haven't done anything. You have to teach change. 

 

Look at our own world. Homophobia, racism, etc.... these things are only just beginning to be uprooted in favor of equality, but we're not done yet. There's still a long road to travel.

Leliana doesn't have to change everyone's minds immediately; endorsing the College of Enchanters is enough to begin with. With the templars gone and the people greatly war-weary, it seems unlikely that any major outbursts of violence would occur. And with that said, then you can start teaching change. Leliana as Divine isn't an end, but a beginning.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

And funnily enough, I'm yet to see these people going around into every thread they can trying to convince people that their ending is the only correct one like you do. I'm yet to see a person who cares as much about what other people do in their games as you.

So yes. I'm willing to bet the majority of the 'reaction' you keep asking about would be your gloating.

. I've seen Templar supporters be some of he rudest ppl I've ever seen

. I know I'd like to see some if them get taken down a notch.

[raging_monkey]

. I've seen Templar supporters be some of he rudest ppl I've ever seen

. I know I'd like to see some if them get taken down a notch.

both sides are rude at times it really just depends on the hr

[Farangbaa]

They want to be the only ones who kill people just because they get in the way.

That's why they hate Leliana.

[AresKeith]

. I've seen Templar supporters be some of he rudest ppl I've ever seen

. I know I'd like to see some if them get taken down a notch.

 

Both sides have the rudest people

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Both sides have the rudest people

Superdark and darkknight r da worst . Funny how they boy have dark in da name

[raging_monkey]

Yeah... Maryden lost a rap battle and Leliana cut her rival's tongue out. And here I thought the NY rap scene was dangerous.

*sarcastic tone*game recgonize game son

[raging_monkey]

Nah not really. Difference between me and her is that I have perspective, don't confuse it for real life, and I'm funnier.

hehe comedy fight in the future haha

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Nah not really. Difference between me and her is that I have perspective, don't confuse it for real life, and I'm funnier.

I take it humility is not your strong suit. Also, makin a glorified troll thread about one person does not make you any better than superdark

[thesuperdarkone2]

I take it humility is not your strong suit. Also, makin a glorified troll thread about one person does not make you any better than superdark

Don't forget how apparently he thinks people who disagree with him are female. Where have I ever suggested I am female?  I take it he's still feeling the banhammer ringing in his ears for spouting such nonsense.

[raging_monkey]

Uh as much id love a MT fight on a saturday lets not devolve

[AresKeith]

Don't forget how apparently he thinks people who disagree with him are female. Where have I ever suggested I am female?  I take it he's still feeling the banhammer ringing in his ears for spouting such nonsense.

 

.....