626 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Because they're pretending the decision matters.

[sandalisthemaker]

If only Divine!Leliana could meet In Hushed Whispers Future!Leliana.  

 

Perhaps then she would think twice before implementing some of the more... out there... things that she is proposing. 

[jlb524]

I disagree with the bit regarding attitudes towards magic following the events of DA:I.

 

Remember, it was a mage who destroyed the Chantry in Kirkwall and ignited the war between the Mages and the Templars.  It was a blighted magister and his Grey Warden mage minions who were responsible for the explosion at the Conclave.  It was the Venatori, an extremist faction from a nation ruled by mages, that caused much upheaval throughout the courts of nobles in Southern Thedas.  It was the leader of the mage rebellion who submitted to a Tevinter Magister and booted Arl Teagan from Redcliffe.

 

If you also factor in the centuries-old attitudes towards magic in the South, I doubt that the mundanes would be any more favourable towards magic and its practitioners than they were prior to this whole ordeal.  

 

In fact, Vivienne will always receive three uprisings under her rule which are undoubtedly linked to her being a mage.  That does not spell a greater acceptance towards mages throughout the land.

 

By the way, nice avatar.

 

But if Vivienne becomes Divine vs. Leliana then circumstances are different.  With what's generally needed to get her as Divine, it's not surprising that attitudes towards mages would be different than Leliana.

 

Leliana becomes Divine in a world where the Inquisition has supported changing things, either with the mages or in Orlais or both.  I think this influence goes a long way since they are the group that saved everyone.

 

I know people have a fear of mages (and there are bad examples) "what have you done lately?" applies I think.  Also, now that the mages are free to interact with the common folk, they can finally see the benefits of magic and not just the bad stuff which may lead to less fear (ironically, we can see this with Anders in DA2 when he was giving free healing to Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall.  These people were very protective of him.).  Before, the Chantry controlled the mages/magic and only the elite ever got to benefit by getting healing or using mages in their wars.  They don't have control anymore.

[thesuperdarkone2]

But if Vivienne becomes Divine vs. Leliana then circumstances are different.  With what's generally needed to get her as Divine, it's not surprising that attitudes towards mages would be different than Leliana.

 

Leliana becomes Divine in a world where the Inquisition has supported changing things, either with the mages or in Orlais or both.  I think this influence goes a long way since they are the group that saved everyone.

 

I know people have a fear of mages (and there are bad examples) "what have you done lately?" applies I think.  Also, now that the mages are free to interact with the common folk, they can finally see the benefits of magic and not just the bad stuff which may lead to less fear (ironically, we can see this with Anders in DA2 when he was giving free healing to Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall.  These people were very protective of him.).  Before, the Chantry controlled the mages/magic and only the elite ever got to benefit by getting healing or using mages in their wars.  They don't have control anymore.

Don't forget how you are considered the herald of the Maker's will so your actions and what you support are generally seen as what the Maker wants which is the reason the grand clerics vote the way they do. If you support mages, then people think the Maker supports giving mages more rights, an instance of sheeple benefitting us.

[congokong]

1. She's kind of a nutter.

2.You don't see the long-term affects of her changes.

3. Her changes, reminiscient of "give peace a chance" and similar dogma, are idealistic with plenty of naivety regarding their implementation.

[TheKomandorShepard]

But if Vivienne becomes Divine vs. Leliana then circumstances are different.  With what's generally needed to get her as Divine, it's not surprising that attitudes towards mages would be different than Leliana.

 

Leliana becomes Divine in a world where the Inquisition has supported changing things, either with the mages or in Orlais or both.  I think this influence goes a long way since they are the group that saved everyone.

 

I know people have a fear of mages (and there are bad examples) "what have you done lately?" applies I think.  Also, now that the mages are free to interact with the common folk, they can finally see the benefits of magic and not just the bad stuff which may lead to less fear (ironically, we can see this with Anders in DA2 when he was giving free healing to Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall.  These people were very protective of him.).  Before, the Chantry controlled the mages/magic and only the elite ever got to benefit by getting healing or using mages in their wars.  They don't have control anymore.

Did we forgot who caused all that mess in first place? Because people cleary didn't no matter if you are pro-mage or pro-templar in dai.Not mention mages were spaming disaster after disaster through series good luck with them not doing that without supervision what would made their reputation even worse. So unless leliana is a god that have control whole human kind nope.

 

 

Don't forget how you are considered the herald of the Maker's will so your actions and what you support are generally seen as what the Maker wants which is the reason the grand clerics vote the way they do. If you support mages, then people think the Maker supports giving mages more rights, an instance of sheeple benefitting us.

Yes you found solution to our all problems we should ask pope to tell everyone love each other and then we shall have peace oh i guess it just works on mages but not elves...

[AWTEW]

Leliana, needs a pyschiatrist or a romanced warden, and not throne sitting.

[FadelessRipley]

Yikes, this is getting heated... *builds a pillow fort and hides*

In all honesty, my first negative reaction to Leliana (possibly my favourite companion/NPC of the trilogy, BTW) was that the romance with the Warden would be over. :-o However, the writers then confirmed that the romance would continue, with Leli eventually doing away with that silly chastity rule for the Divine. Which sort of comes to why, when though I love her to bits, I feel Cassandra may be the better choice (Viv doesn't even register for me, no disrespect Viv fans! ) - Leliana's reforms are wonderful, and based on my actions in all three games, I agree with them. However, that kind of change can't come overnight. Even after wartime. I wanted Leliana softened in Inquisition, because hardened Leliana is too ruthless for the Leliana I love. Much as she has a silver tongue and I believe in the power of diplomacy, I'm not sure things would go as smoothly as the epilogue suggests, even if it's just the beginning. I guess Leliana is my "idealistic" Divine, but Cass is my "realistic" one. And the fact I made that distinction about a fantasy world amuses me no end...

[Fiery Phoenix]

Did we forgot who caused all that mess in first place? Because people cleary didn't no matter if you are pro-mage or pro-templar in dai.Not mention mages were spaming disaster after disaster through series good luck with them not doing that without supervision what would made their reputation even worse. So unless leliana is a god that have control whole human kind nope.

While I get this point of view, it doesn't take into account that the circumstances are different now. The Chantry is no longer controlling the mages. Everything's changed. The Inquisition's influence is all over Thedas. Unless you insist that history will just repeat itself, I think it's healthy to consider a different perspective under the current situation.

[TheKomandorShepard]

While I get this point of view, it doesn't take into account that the circumstances are different now. The Chantry is no longer controlling the mages. Everything's changed. The Inquisition's influence is all over Thedas. Unless you insist that history will just repeat itself, I think it's healthy to consider a different perspective under the current situation.

It doesn't matter because people don't hate mages because chantry told them they hate them because they are people and second for good reasons that they cause disaster after disaster.And no amount of talking would change that especially overnight if life was so easy racism would be gone and as i said we would live in utopia.

[Catche Jagger]

**Double Post**

[Catche Jagger]

Softened Leliana's ending seems like it's best but I guess it comes across as kind of silly for me. I mean it it comes across as a really random happy ending that doesn't fit the tone and complexity the series has presented thus far. And so it just feels off for me and I don't like going for it. It's still in the game and therefore is a valid option, but it just feels wrong to me I guess.

Hardened Leliana's ending goes in a more realistic direction. Leliana pushes lots of change, there is a backlash, and then violence breaks out. This actually realistic and follows the idea that change is hard, especially radical change. Thus, I will pick it on some of my playthroughs, unlike Softened Leliana Divine.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Softened Leliana's ending seems like it's best but I guess it comes across as kind of silly for me. I mean it it comes across as a really random happy ending that doesn't fit the tone and complexity the series has presented thus far. And so it just feels off for me and I don't like going for it. It's still in the game and therefore is a valid option, but it just feels wrong to me I guess.

Hardened Leliana's ending goes in a more realistic direction. Leliana pushes lots of change, there is a backlash, and then violence breaks out. This actually realistic and follows the idea that change is hard, especially radical change. Thus, I will pick it on some of my playthroughs, unlike Softened Leliana Divine.

Hardly hardened lelianas ending is realistic more realistic for sure but it says very little hardened leliana ending is only more realistic in chantry matter rest of the ending is the same and still unrealistic.

[robertmarilyn]

Softened Leliana's ending seems like it's best but I guess it comes across as kind of silly for me. I mean it it comes across as a really random happy ending that doesn't fit the tone and complexity the series has presented thus far. And so it just feels off for me and I don't like going for it. It's still in the game and therefore is a valid option, but it just feels wrong to me I guess.

Hardened Leliana's ending goes in a more realistic direction. Leliana pushes lots of change, there is a backlash, and then violence breaks out. This actually realistic and follows the idea that change is hard, especially radical change. Thus, I will pick it on some of my playthroughs, unlike Softened Leliana Divine.

 

All my games end with a softened Leliana Divine because I like "happy" endings or as close as I can get to them. 

[Bad King]

3. Her changes, reminiscient of "give peace a chance" and similar dogma, are idealistic with plenty of naivety regarding their implementation.

 

In terms of implementing her policies, Leliana is probably the least naive candidate. Either she strikes quickly and lethally against her enemies or she quickly persuades them to stay in line. Her fast response implies that she realises that her radical policies would be opposed by many and so she acted accordingly. Compare that with Cassandra and Vivienne who face protracted conflicts that they were ill-prepared for - this implies to me that they failed to realise the response that their reforms would generate from conservatives/reactionaries in the Chantry compared to Leliana who, as a bard and spy-master with a good knowledge of the Chantry/Nobility's inner workings, knew exactly how they would respond.

[Catche Jagger]

All my games end with a softened Leliana Divine because I like "happy" endings or as close as I can get to them.

Oh I like happy endings too, believe me. I'm not looking for something angsty and depressing. However, I guess Softened Leliana's ending just didn't feel "earned" to me. Earned probably isn't the best term to use but that's the best one I can think of. It's almost Deus Ex Machina-like (again, probably not the best word, but I'm strained to think of a better one) in how suddenly all the problems get fixed without much, if any, difficulty. The other endings show that change came in varying degrees, but things are still far from perfect.

Hardly hardened lelianas ending is realistic more realistic for sure but it says very little hardened leliana ending is only more realistic in chantry matter rest of the ending is the same and still unrealistic.

Oh, she's not my favorite Divine choice (that would be Cassandra) but there is some merit to that ending, in my opinion. Radical change can work, but it is usually bloody and may not work out in the end. Leliana's smart, so I'd think she could make it work, but I think her doing so without a good deal of bloodshed is a bit absurd.

[Hellion Rex]

Lately, I've seen posts where people say Leliana will never be divine as she is crazy or her rule is doomed to failure, but her good endings show that not only does her rule not fail but her rule results in Mage freedom and acceptance.

Why do people not like this? I honestly want to know why people seriously isn't like this.

Cause she's nuts.

[Xilizhra]

Oh I like happy endings too, believe me. I'm not looking for something angsty and depressing. However, I guess Softened Leliana's ending just didn't feel "earned" to me. Earned probably isn't the best term to use but that's the best one I can think of. It's almost Deus Ex Machina-like (again, probably not the best word, but I'm strained to think of a better one) in how suddenly all the problems get fixed without much, if any, difficulty. The other endings show that change came in varying degrees, but things are still far from perfect.

I had to restart a whole playthrough once to get inspired Leliana. I'd say that was earned.

[raging_monkey]

Cause she's nuts.

ehh who doesnt fit some criteria of mental instablity

[Catche Jagger]

I had to restart a whole playthrough once to get inspired Leliana. I'd say that was earned.

Oh, then perhaps it would be an earned from your end. How you must have lamented all those hours wasted only to have Leliana kill everyone!

But alas! I do not share your experience, so I cannot say the same

[Giantdeathrobot]

"Good" Leliana as divine implements the biggest positive change to the Chantry since Andraste - Less racism, less rampant manaphobia.

 

Of course, not grim-dark enough for some people.

 

The sticking point for me is more how easy it was. Really, she ''miraculously'' persuades the famously repressive Chantry to become Peace And Love Incorporated? With speeches? What next, are they going to make her Empress of Orlais because she wears such fabulous shoes?

 

All other Divine endings show that reform and ruling is hard, they are all shown a lot of opposition, including Hardened!Leliana which drowns dissent in blood, Vivienne who stamps down a mage uprsing, and Cassandra who has to deal with breakaway sects due to her comparatively mild reforms. But Softened!Leliana simply has to show up and every decides to hold hands and sing Kumbaya because she's that awesome? That's poor writing IMO.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Cause she's slowly becoming Daenerys Targaryen of Dragon Age.

[Xilizhra]

The sticking point for me is more how easy it was. Really, she ''miraculously'' persuades the famously repressive Chantry to become Peace And Love Incorporated? With speeches? What next, are they going to make her Empress of Orlais because she wears such fabulous shoes?

 

All other Divine endings show that reform and ruling is hard, they are all shown a lot of opposition, including Hardened!Leliana which drowns dissent in blood, Vivienne who stamps down a mage uprsing, and Cassandra who has to deal with breakaway sects due to her comparatively mild reforms. But Softened!Leliana simply has to show up and every decides to hold hands and sing Kumbaya because she's that awesome? That's poor writing IMO.

I think they show that Cassandra is incompetent and Vivienne is scary. Leliana is neither a mage nor socially inept.

[Drasanil]

The sticking point for me is more how easy it was. Really, she ''miraculously'' persuades the famously repressive Chantry to become Peace And Love Incorporated? With speeches? What next, are they going to make her Empress of Orlais because she wears such fabulous shoes?

 

All other Divine endings show that reform and ruling is hard, they are all shown a lot of opposition, including Hardened!Leliana which drowns dissent in blood, Vivienne who stamps down a mage uprsing, and Cassandra who has to deal with breakaway sects due to her comparatively mild reforms. But Softened!Leliana simply has to show up and every decides to hold hands and sing Kumbaya because she's that awesome? That's poor writing IMO.

 

 

It also feeds into the narrative that has been building against Leliana, that she is the writer's pet.