626 réponses à ce sujet

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

I think they show that Cassandra is incompetent and Vivienne is scary. Leliana is neither a mage nor socially inept.

No one can rules without facing any opposition. No matter how good you are.

[raging_monkey]

No one can rules without facing any opposition. No matter how good you are.

appearently lels can hehe so ill tale my chances

[Giantdeathrobot]

I think they show that Cassandra is incompetent and Vivienne is scary. Leliana is neither a mage nor socially inept.

 

Competence is one thing. Competence would have been Leliana implementing some of her radical reforms peacefully over time, while having to do some compromises. I could get behind such an ending, Dragon Age doesn't have to be grimdark al lthe time, and it's still a significant achievement.

 

Changing the Chantry from a racist, repressive organisation to Peace And Love Inc. which accepts everyone and hugs mages forever ''miraculously'' with a few speeches is dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. It feels contrived, silly, and shoe-horned in to show how awesome Leliana is, that she can undo a millenia of oppression virtually overnight. 

 

EDIT: @ Warden-Commander Aeducan: That's precisely who I had in mind. Dany in the books faces hardships, in the show she seems a completely flawless force of nature that punches all the Bad People in the face with little to no effort. I like Leliana, and for that reason I don't want her to turn into the same sort of setting-warping superheroine because the writers/fans gush over her.

[Xilizhra]

Competence is one thing. Competence would have been Leliana implementing some of her radical reforms peacefully over time, while having to do some compromises. I could get behind such an ending, Dragon Age doesn't have to be grimdark al lthe time, and it's still a significant achievement.

 

Changing the Chantry from a racist, repressive organisation to Peace And Love Inc. which accepts everyone and hugs mages forever ''miraculously'' with a few speeches is dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. It feels contrived, silly, and shoe-horned in to show how awesome Leliana is, that she can undo a millenia of oppression virtually overnight. 

Keep in mind that the Chantry was already changed from the dominant social institution in Thedas to a decapitated wreck in real danger of being supplanted by the Inquisition. Obviously Leliana could never have gotten away with this had the Chantry actually been in power, but with the Inquisition behind her, and holding much more actual power than the Chantry itself, it's not unreasonable for her to find many people easier to persuade.

[Steelcan]

Something something genocide fetishism

Meanwhile I'll be laughing at anyone who thinks the epilogues are in any way going to be maintained as presented

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

appearently lels can hehe so ill tale my chances

Top kek, oh she can indeed. Sorry, monkey, but being the writer's favorite pet doesn't count.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Keep in mind that the Chantry was already changed from the dominant social institution in Thedas to a decapitated wreck in real danger of being supplanted by the Inquisition. Obviously Leliana could never have gotten away with this had the Chantry actually been in power, but with the Inquisition behind her, and holding much more actual power than the Chantry itself, it's not unreasonable for her to find many people easier to persuade.

 

Had the Chantry been that weak, Cassandra and Vivienne wouldn't have found it so hard to impose themselves on it. The Chantry had lost its central leadership and military arm, but its ideas did not change at all. Reform is a possibility, but reforms take time and effort. Leliana seems to make it instant and effortless- a few speeches and boom, ''miraculously'' everyone gets behind her. That's completely silly. 

 

I mean, the equivalent would be for Vivienne to be able to reinstate the Circles without a hitch, because she went to speak to the mages and ''miraculously'' convinced them being quasi-slaves is awesome. That's ridiculous.

[raging_monkey]

Top kek, oh she can indeed. Sorry, monkey, but being the writer's favorite pet doesn't count.

does too.... A wizard did it

Lels divine ftw imo

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

does too.... A wizard did it
Lels divine ftw imo

Nah...A templar disrupt whatever you gonna cast to support Leliana.

To each his own, my friend.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I like Leliana as Divine. I don't think everyone accept the changes happily. Yes they accepted them but, She is the Divine and thus, doing the will of the Maker, in the eyes of believers, and that is the majority. They accept it, like it or not because they think it's the Maker's will that things change and, be the way the Divine makes them.

 

How long before those that oppose her crawl out of the woodwork and threaten to send Southern Thedas into chaos again, we don't know but, I have a feeling, that no matter who is Divine, it will happen.

[raging_monkey]

Nah...A templar disrupt whatever you gonna cast to support Leliana.

To each his own, my friend.

Blood magic beats templar

Agreed each divine does good work

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Blood magic beats templar
Agreed each divine does good work

I choose you Ser Barris!

Well, why must we all be at each other throat when discussing Divine, Mage-Templar or Orlesian politics.

[Steelcan]

Because some people can't resist the urge to try and gloat about their own ideas being supposedly writer ordained as correct

[raging_monkey]

I choose you Ser Barris!

Well, why must we all be at each other throat when discussing Divine, Mage-Templar or Orlesian politics.

i summon fiona Grand enchanter in attack mode and equip her with plot armor

Cause fandom members generally lack manners or cause the internet gives em a big stick so they can tote their fandom

[d-boy15]

Because of reasons. Pro-Templar, Leliana hater, Cassandra fans or just want a safer outcome.

Take your pick.

[Steelcan]

Fiona is fortunately utterly lacking in plot armor in DA:I, too bad she doesn't even drop good loot

[Hazegurl]

Hero marrying Anora

“<FirstName/> married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.” http://dragonage.wik...logue_(Origins)

 

Only the Warden and Anora get the golden age description.

 

On topic:  Viv has been my canon choice for a while but I am warming up to Hardened Leliana more. I like the idea of simply using her to uproot the Chantry further with her chaos then kill her off and put a more stabilizing puppet force in her place so that things would never go back to being entirely the same.  Leliana is either too idealistic or too cray for me to trust her entirely, and I don't like her having a whole spy network at her disposal as Divine.  So yeah she, and anyone loyal to her is gonna eventually croak by the hands of my new spymaster Briala.  And I like the idea of the Mages or Templars staying with the Inquisition. 

   

[raging_monkey]

Fiona is fortunately utterly lacking in plot armor in DA:I, too bad she doesn't even drop good loot

its enough to prevent solem judgement haha

[sandalisthemaker]

I basically switch between Cassandra and Vivienne in my playthroughs.

 

Leliana's outcome is just too much, too easily, and too hand-wavy IMO.   It just eliminates all conflict and everyone loves eachother all of a sudden.  I don't see how that could possibly be carried on from a story perspective to the next game.  I highly doubt all of her super magical changes will be honored moving forward. 

[Steelcan]

its enough to prevent solem judgement haha

its a final let down from a wholly pathetic cameo

[raging_monkey]

its a final let down from a wholly pathetic cameo

still a win ill take it haha

[Lumix19]

I don't think that the epilogue for softened Leliana was that unrealistic. Sure she's not cutting throats in the Grand Cathedral, but she was/is a bard and she knows how to manipulate the Game. What speeches can't accomplish, blackmail certainly can. The issue with Cassandra is that she has no interest in the Game, and she's trying to make everybody happy thus consequently making everyone unhappy. Vivienne is a different case in that she's good at the Game and her ending really does bring stability, but you have to wonder if retaining the status quo is such a good idea when we've been told time and again it is ultimately a decaying system.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

i summon fiona Grand enchanter in attack mode and equip her with plot armor
Cause fandom members generally lack manners or cause the internet gives em a big stick so they can tote their fandom

Uh, she doesn't have plot armor in DAI...foiled!

This is unfortunately true.

Because of reasons. Pro-Templar, Leliana hater, Cassandra fans or just want a safer outcome.
Take your pick.

Or some hard core Pro-Mage, Leliana lover, Cassandra hater can't resist the urge to gloat and shove their own opinion and belief down to other people throat, convincing them that they're right and other people opinion and belief is worthless, whether people lke it or not.

It's also could be the other way around you know? But as you said "Take your pick"

[raging_monkey]

Uh, she doesn't have plot armor in DAI...foiled!

This is unfortunately true.
Or some hard core Pro-Mage, Leliana lover, Cassandra hater can't resist the urge to gloat and shove their own opinion and belief down to other people throat, convincing them that they're right and other people opinion and belief is worthless, whether people lke it or not.

It's also could be the other way around you know? But as you said "Take your pick"

its the watered down version... plot armor-half down

Sides you get used to it

[Steelcan]

I don't think that the epilogue for softened Leliana was that unrealistic. Sure she's not cutting throats in the Grand Cathedral but she was/is a bard and she knows how to manipulate the Game. What speeches can't accomplish blackmail certainly can. The issue with Cassandra is that she has no interest in the Game and she's trying to make everybody happy thus consequently making everyone unhappy. Vivienne is a different case in that she's good at the Game and her ending really does bring stability but you have to wonder if retaining the status quo is such a good idea when we've been told time and again it is ultimately a decaying system.

>tfw Cassandra's reign is described as a Golden Age
>tfw she puts down rebels who were upset about her reforms

Its both more realistic than soft Leliana singing Kumbaya, and not without potential for further divides and conflicts