126 réponses à ce sujet

[AgentMrOrange]

I would love to play as a full body cyborg like motoko kusanagi. I think this is a part of the MEU that should be explored in greater depth

[katamuro]

To some, 'everything around us' includes our bodies. Depends on how much of you you consider you - the unalterable. Considering how much of our body grows, changes, dies, etc...

 

Well I can see myself and majority of population getting gene enhacements that normalize our body functions, making them more efficient, increasing all kinds of functions but doing something drastic like grafting a tail, or two extra arms or anything of that type? Not really. 

Same goes for cybernetics, if I lose an arm or a leg or an eye, I am all for cybernetic replacement, but gouging out my own eyeball just so that I can stuff a cybernetic one in? No. Thank you. 

And Adam Jensen is not the best example, he was reconstructed after severe life-threatening injuries and most of it was done to him without his input. Especially since in Deus Ex:HR people with cybernetics require medication to be taken for the rest of their lives. I see some people going through stuff like that but for the majority? The cybernetics would be minimal and largely invisible, same for gene mods.

[MrFob]

I actually would not want to see it. I believe Mass Effect should stay away from augmentation, cybernetics route. Mostly, because Mass Effect features different alien races with their own unique physiologies and psychology, so something like Deus Ex would not really work IMO. Speaking of which, Deus Ex does a great job at addressing genetic engineering and/or cybernetics, better leave those issues to it.
I'd much prefer ME:Next being focused on exploration. And I don't mean "go to the cave, kill a monster, grab loot" type of exploration. Exploration of different cultures, societies, races, factions. Things that add a lot of detail to the world and make it feel alive.

 
I agree 100%. Deus EX (especially Human Revolution) does a marvelous job exploring the theme of brain-machine-interfaces and it's impact on society as well as single individuals. I really hope they will continue this series and take it even further.
 
However, I don't think these themes should take center stage in ME. They never have either. Yes, Shepard is apparently heavily modified in ME2 and both, genetic engineering as well as cybernetics are mentioned multiple times but they are never expanded upon. Their social and psychological consequences are never really explored, even as the main character is affected by this, it is left in the background and - contrary to other themes - even an explanation of the facts is not provided.
I think this was done on purpose. Ultimately these themes have to focus on us humans. Today, when these stories are told, we are still trying to imagine what consequences these kinds of changes may have on humankind. Any in-depth focus on this theme will therefore need to be focused on our kind as well. This is what was done in Deus Ex, which is not distracted by multiple societies and races, there is just us.
As Vazgen pointed out, the ME universe is very different, you have multiple alien races, all with their own culture and philosophy and the series so far focused on how these different societies work together (or against each other in some cases). Bringing such a deeply human-centered theme into it would clash. Of course, now one could go the Star Trek route and use the alien races to act as metaphors for different aspects of the human psyche but frankly, I am glad that ME tries to avoid this particular trope as much as possible.
The fact that this human theme may clash with the bigger picture of ME is exemplified in the infamous Baby-advice quest in ME1. Even Patrick Weekes, who wrote that dialogue has admitted that it was handled badly. In a game that deals with problems on a galactic scale, coming to the player with this very personal problem seemed small, unrelated and somewhat inappropriate. Yes, they could have expanded on it in ME2, when Shepard got "augmented" through the Lazarus Project but I guess they had enough on their plate at the time. Yes, a new game with a more personal story could address the issue again if it focused on it but you'd have two problems: a) you'd need a really good reason why this is suddenly an issue when it never was before and b ) you can only properly focus on this issue if other themes take a step back and I am not sure I want that for ME.
Especially given the fact, that we already have another game series that does an exemplary job of dealing with trans-humanism, I don't think ME has to go there, at least not full time - and if you are going to take this topic seriously, neither should you get into it part time, better to leave it on the sidelines in that case.

[Iakus]

i don't think Mass Effect ever made a big deal about genetic engineering or cybernetics.  I mean, yeah, we had Miranda and Grunt showing how organic life could be augmented, but little was made of it besides Miranda's "Woe is me!  Everyone expects me to be perfect!" and Grunt's abortive destiny as teh first of an unstoppable army of superkrogan.  Little is done with the ethics or implications of such practices.

 

Even less is made of the cybernetics aspects.  I mean, Garrus has some as part of the reconstructive surgery on his face.  but that' the extent of it.  And then there's Shepard.  But again, no one comments on it, no one makes a big deal of it.  It's virtually a nonissue.

 

SUddenly putting these at the forefront woul dbe jarring.  There'd likely be even more of a cry of "Deus Ex ripoff!" than ME3 already provided.

[Nitrocuban]

Well, ME never was cyber punk but more of the classic SF TV show from the past we all watched as kids.

But Deus Ex did not invent the genre so a ME4 being more cyber punk and less Star Trek TOS would be ok imho.

[Quarian Master Race]

Just hit with an idea. What about exploring this issue via introducing the cyborg Zha'til species from Javik's cycle, mentioned on the Dreadnought and immediately after? Just give a few of them some prothean style stasis pods to get them into MEnext (even though the protheans blew up their star and supposedly extincted them).

[Inprea]

Just hit with an idea. What about exploring this issue via introducing the cyborg Zha'til species from Javik's cycle, mentioned on the Dreadnought and immediately after? Just give a few of them some prothean style stasis pods to get them into MEnext (even though the protheans blew up their star and supposedly extincted them).

 

That could be fun and it seems a part machine or machine race could hide from the reapers more easily than an organic. Unless we're talking tech so advanced that organic and mechanical can't be told apart, cybernetic cells if you will. I am however more of a fan of home grown technology then we found it from aliens.

[Navasha]

I got news for you.   If you polled a 100 people and asked..   We have developed this cybernetic arm that is vastly superior to your own arms, would you cut off your own actual arms and replace them with this superior version.   I bet 95 out of 100 would say NO.  

 

Just because you are someone that would say yes to that question doesn't mean most people think as you do. 

 

There is a reason why augmentation and cybernetics continue as a theme in sci-fi.    Sci-fi largely is used to explore people's FEARS about the future and technology. 

[AgentMrOrange]

there seems to be a pro organic mentally in the MEU so having a character that challenges that idea would be great way to explore that theme.

[Inprea]

I got news for you.   If you polled a 100 people and asked..   We have developed this cybernetic arm that is vastly superior to your own arms, would you cut off your own actual arms and replace them with this superior version.   I bet 95 out of 100 would say NO.  

 

Just because you are someone that would say yes to that question doesn't mean most people think as you do. 

 

There is a reason why augmentation and cybernetics continue as a theme in sci-fi.    Sci-fi largely is used to explore people's FEARS about the future and technology. 

 

The poll on http://io9.com/59154...ould-you-choose does not agree with you. Actually none of the forums I've read that discuss the subject agrees with you. Even this thread doesn't agree with your lopsided numbers.

 

There are a few on this thread that seem to believe they speak for Joe/Jain Normal but I sure haven't seen any proof of that. If you're going to make such claims how about backing them up instead of assuming? I'm not sure if any of the pro cybernetic people have claimed they speak for the every person.

[AgentMrOrange]

I think it would be great idea if we could select between a pure human or a cyborg at the character creation screen as a way to help create a sense of customization.

[NM_Che56]

As a central theme? I don't think so.  Human biotics use implants.  Cloning. Shepard was rebuilt Steve Austin style (no...not the swill guzzling Texan).  The Reapers definitely played double dutch with DNA.  I'm not sure how this would be compelling since it seems the Mass Effect Universe has already resolved a lot of ethical questions related to these things or have dealt with them in some way.

 

The focus of the next game is exploration.  The question is why?  What is the impetus for  this being the focus, from a narrative standpoint?  I think the answer may lie in the events in the latter half of ME2 and ME3.

[SwobyJ]

As a central theme? I don't think so.  Human biotics use implants.  Cloning. Shepard was rebuilt Steve Austin style (no...not the swill guzzling Texan).  The Reapers definitely played double dutch with DNA.  I'm not sure how this would be compelling since it seems the Mass Effect Universe has already resolved a lot of ethical questions related to these things or have dealt with them in some way.

 

The focus of the next game is exploration.  The question is why?  What is the impetus for  this being the focus, from a narrative standpoint?  I think the answer may lie in the events in the latter half of ME2 and ME3.

 

There's a difference between exploring it and making it a central theme.

 

Perhaps the next game could essentially 'sort things out in general', but still step forward into even more theoretical territory.

 

Though I know people respond in mixed ways to that.

[Inprea]

There's a difference between exploring it and making it a central theme.

 

Perhaps the next game could essentially 'sort things out in general', but still step forward into even more theoretical territory.

 

Though I know people respond in mixed ways to that.

 

I'd be happy with a little chatter about it and the ability to purchase some good upgrades. Some nice visuals would be good to.

 

One table top rpg I enjoyed had a cybernetic upgrade for your integumentary system. It didn't make you shiny or anything but it did lower your social skills by 1 if the person could see you. The reasoning for this is the skins color became a bit unnatural. It was just enough to make people uncomfortable. In return you got a nice boost to defense against radiation  and your skin counted as decent body armor.

[SwobyJ]

I'd be happy with a little chatter about it and the ability to purchase some good upgrades. Some nice visuals would be good to.

 

One table top rpg I enjoyed had a cybernetic upgrade for your integumentary system. It didn't make you shiny or anything but it did lower your social skills by 1 if the person could see you. The reasoning for this is the skins color became a bit unnatural. It was just enough to make people uncomfortable. In return you got a nice boost to defense against radiation  and your skin counted as decent body armor.

 

Yes I would like something along those lines!

 

~~~

 

I had my own, um, idea that the next game could have a galaxy that generally accepts higher (relative for Mass Effect) technology (so its not a huge deal in itself), but your (human/oid) character could choose to be relatively more Human, Transhuman, or Posthuman*, and that'll affect both trust levels AND capability levels for things. Get more Posthuman and you can achieve more miracles, but characters may not trust you as much and do what you say. Get more Human and you have a tougher path to achieve things, but characters will trust you more (as just a basis of course, not details of relationship) and will more often do what you say.

And we'll have 3 paths instead of Paragon and Renegade, both with more nuanced pros and cons, especially compared to the much more binary ME2.

 

But again, the 'debate about whether to pursue technology' itself will be settled more-or-less in the middle ('canon' narrative; akin to 'spirit stuff happening' in DAI). What could matter more is the debate about how to use the technology that's here whether we like it or not (akin to DAI's protagonist having the Mark whether he wants it or not; he can reluctantly go for it, or embrace a messianic role).

 

 

 

*Depending on POV, Shepard in the trilogy is either Human throughout, or a Transhuman 'in denial'. I'm proposing that the next game get more honest about its Transhuman as its basis, or you can be more of a Human or Posthuman if you try (the Posthuman path still settling into a Transhuman position, or having a still limited extent in the story, and the Human path still of one where the protagonist has to admit that they're augmented to some degree and technically always a literal Transhuman, albeit with Human mentality).

Note that I mean this more in the RP. Shepard could be argued to have always been Human or Transhuman depending on where you're coming from, but the narrative keeps Shepard considering himself as Human. I'd like the next game to have the protagonist to decide to be Human, Transhuman, or Posthuman, with the narrative keeping the protagonist still generally centered around Transhuman concepts (and therefore still a lot of Human concepts).

[NM_Che56]

There's a difference between exploring it and making it a central theme.

 

Perhaps the next game could essentially 'sort things out in general', but still step forward into even more theoretical territory.

 

Though I know people respond in mixed ways to that.

 

But it feels like those themes have already been explored and here we are, so to speak.   I just guess I don't know what needs to be sorted out.  Seems like all the sorting has been done and the zeitgeist is the ethics behind AI.   Even after the Shepard story, that still could be unresolved:

 

Mass Effect 3 spoilers

 

Spoiler

 

What does it mean now that they are destroyed? Will AI be rebuilt - Destroy

What does it mean to be synthetic AND organic?  Surely the Geth are not the same as us - Synthesis

How do we all get along? - Control

 

[Inprea]

Yes I would like something along those lines!

 

~~~

 

I had my own, um, idea that the next game could have a galaxy that generally accepts higher (relative for Mass Effect) technology (so its not a huge deal in itself), but your (human/oid) character could choose to be relatively more Human, Transhuman, or Posthuman*, and that'll affect both trust levels AND capability levels for things. Get more Posthuman and you can achieve more miracles, but characters may not trust you as much and do what you say. Get more Human and you have a tougher path to achieve things, but characters will trust you more (as just a basis of course, not details of relationship) and will more often do what you say.

And we'll have 3 paths instead of Paragon and Renegade, both with more nuanced pros and cons, especially compared to the much more binary ME2.

 

But again, the 'debate about whether to pursue technology' itself will be settled more-or-less in the middle ('canon' narrative; akin to 'spirit stuff happening' in DAI). What could matter more is the debate about how to use the technology that's here whether we like it or not (akin to DAI's protagonist having the Mark whether he wants it or not; he can reluctantly go for it, or embrace a messianic role).

 

 

 

*Depending on POV, Shepard in the trilogy is either Human throughout, or a Transhuman 'in denial'. I'm proposing that the next game get more honest about its Transhuman as its basis, or you can be more of a Human or Posthuman if you try (the Posthuman path still settling into a Transhuman position, or having a still limited extent in the story, and the Human path still of one where the protagonist has to admit that they're augmented to some degree and technically always a literal Transhuman, albeit with Human mentality).

Note that I mean this more in the RP. Shepard could be argued to have always been Human or Transhuman depending on where you're coming from, but the narrative keeps Shepard considering himself as Human. I'd like the next game to have the protagonist to decide to be Human, Transhuman, or Posthuman, with the narrative keeping the protagonist still generally centered around Transhuman concepts (and therefore still a lot of Human concepts).

 

Interesting idea. I do like the idea of people responding to you differently based on what you are. I'd say it'd be pretty good if at least one romance would reject you as he/she refuses to sleep with a machine. "You died when you had that chip put in your skull."

[SwobyJ]

Interesting idea. I do like the idea of people responding to you differently based on what you are. I'd say it'd be pretty good if at least one romance would reject you as he/she refuses to sleep with a machine. "You died when you had that chip put in your skull."

 

YESSSSSSS

[Farangbaa]

Even though both happen in the trilogy, I think there's way too little of it going on for the game to be set in 2183.

More like 2040.

I mean.. seriously, people:




And genetic engineering sounds futuristic, but it's not.

[AgentMrOrange]

I agree even though there are implants and cybernetics the trilogy really doesn't go into it besides establishing that they exist. genetic modification had some discussion in ME and ME2 but cybernetics aren't really touch on and post reaper war I would image that A.I and cyborg are hated even more. assuming that the next mass effect game takes place after the reaper war. 

[Guanxii]

Establishing that cybernetic augmentation and genetic engineering have accelerated markedly in the years since ME3 would imply that we have collectively as a society at least partially overcome the risks described by the leviathans, catalyst and Javik as we integrate further with synthetic-tech even physically - so it is in my view very important symbolically to depict this moving forwards as we fought and died to defend the principle that we can live harmoniously with synthetic technology despite being told repeatedly that we were wrong and that it would be the death of us all.

 

Just because dystopian transhumanism is a major theme of deus ex doesn't mean that other series should shy away from it. Mass Effect should be the logical inverse/counterpoint to Deus Ex and it's cyberpunk sensibilities. Given that mass effect is very much science fiction of the classical star trek mould existing in a tradition apart and hence set way further in a more hopeful view of the future any depiction of transhumanism here should be conversely utopic, ubiquitous and subtle if noticeable - increasingly so as series goes on given what has transpired.

[bondari reloads.]

Turning MENext into a display of utopian transhumanism would be a terrible thing to do. However, as the issue gets increasingly important in our own time, it would only be prudent to address this in the game in some form other than Miranda's backside.

[Guanxii]

Utopic in the sense that Mass Effect is a fairly utopian view of the future and our technology should reflect this always pushing boundaries and going beyond natural limitations and taking our species further to new heights as the timeline moves forward. Deus Ex basically says the exact opposite: Giving people new means to improve their minds and bodies needn't be the dawn of the apocalypse or part of some anti-capitalism/globalism agenda, and nor should it take an overbearing focus or precedence either. After ME3 made a big bold stink about synthetic technology leading to the end of organic life I want to see this assertion contested and see that our species are firmly in control of their tech and their destinies are in their own hands. Bio-technological advances are something to be embraced in science fiction, not feared.

[bondari reloads.]

ME3 did that already, though? The Illusive Man = a visionary sacrificing himself to technology for the sake of moving humanity forward.

 

I can't see any game other than ME to pull off something like that. But since it was Shepard's story, big issues like this would only matter when it had to do with Shepard and take a backseat. ME would have to go the DA route of putting the world over the protagonist for that.

 

OT: As a big Lem fan though I would've loved to have stuff like this mentioned in ME, but there was no looking past Shepard Getting Things Done.