426 réponses à ce sujet

[AWTEW]

So like, I'd like to see a super sexy tentcle monster in the next game. It's really dissapointing that We didn't have that in the game.

[Panda]

I don't know.  She is a survival of the fittest type, but not evil.  She likes "you" as the warden right off because you're stronger than Alastair.  She thinks you should release Sten because he's a noble warrior.  I think she's sort of chaotic neutral/true neutral all the way.  Even neutral characters can have friends.

 

Neutral characters shouldn't disapprove helping people and being nice to them ^^;

[craigdolphin]

I can sympathise with the OP's POV. That said, Cassandra might be one of my favorite romances ever. I think the writers did a great job with her character. Working on Josephine in my second playthrough, but early days yet.

 

I also think some of the female romance options were pretty tough. Even if you liked some of the characters themselves, not exactly a lot going in the happily-ever-after department with Solas or Blackwall is there?

 

On a general level I think that romances in DAI are mostly improved. Finally got rid of the silly underwear sex scenes and at least they sometimes veer into something approaching a perfume advertisement level of carnal activity. They said they were aiming for ME1-like content and I think they pretty much achieved that (even if not for all romances).

 

The one thing I'd have to say that I did not like about romances in DAI is the idea of non-party member romances like Cullen and Josie. I actually enjoyed having other companions teasing Cassandra and the inquisitor in banter while out and about. That's really not as fun with the advisers because they can never be there. There's also something about having your LI being in the party and sharing the road and the battles. Some of this was lost when they took away the option for the player to initiate dialog after DAO (still greatly missed by some of us), but in this situation there's not even any possibility that the LI might initiate a conversation with the inquisitor if you happen across a trigger point.

 

I still wish there was more romance-related content in the game overall (as in more to the individual romances, not that there should be more romances per game). The dance scene at Halmashiral was a nice touch. More of that type of thing, please! Overall I thought that DAI's romance stuff was probably the strongest of the three games to-date, even if I preferred the available options in DAO. That said, I know Bioware talk about the romances being 100% optional so I expect there's a limit to the amount of resources they can throw into this aspect of the game.

[ThreeF]

Skyrim has zero sexual fantasies fulfilled, was also GOTY, and has a rabid fanbase, and I still play it.  I could care less if I have a single sexual fantasy fulfilled by this game because I have a RL person that fulfills me.

 

If they removed romances 100% and just like fixed the hair situation or made the bears not respawn so much I'd be good. 

Ok, but I'm not sure what this has to do with what I wrote.

[Silcron]

On a general level I think that romances in DAI are mostly improved. Finally got rid of the silly underwear sex scenes and at least they sometimes veer into something approaching a perfume advertisement level of carnal activity. They said they were aiming for ME1-like content and I think they pretty much achieved that (even if not for all romances).

I have to agree, except that sillyness had to go to other places, like in Cass romance. Seriously, the whole readying poetry moment was ruined to me because that book was possesed or something. You weren't holding it, the damned book had attached itself to your hand. I was even imagining that the Inq was being forced to read it by the book and was trying to get Cass to realize it with her Seeker training and kill the book. Except the devilishly clever book knew Cass liked that stuff. Curse you poetry book! Curse you!

On topic, I agree with the op. I've done Josie and Cass and they didn't click with me. Josie, well, it started kind of well and them it just lost my interest, until they mentioned a duel. Doing fencing IRL that got me excited and I was really glad of how it played, with that guy pulling real if basic fencing moves and the fact that you didn't know how to handle yourself well was another thing I liked. Because you're an expert in s&s or doublehanded sword combat, not the rapier kind. Then came Josie and ruined the fun. *sigh* I think I'd have had a greater time if my lesbian qunari had discovered by the power of player retcon that she was bisexual and romanced that guy than Josie.

Then Cass, well, I tried, but to me she is that coworker you respect, can have a conversation during a break but no attraction at all. I just pushed through and tbh, the hilarity of the Varric moments or the unintentional one with the book were worth it. Oh well, the Inq didn't click with me either so I'm not particularly pissed that in my canon he will most likely die alone.

[Uccio]

I didn´t like Cass romance. Even it felt like the only adult option. Her whole arc revolved around the seekers, didn´t really reveal anything of her personality. Then she goes on telling my pc of her former lovers( am I the rebound guy now?) in the sack, and dismisses love confession with "here now I believe you". So you don´t outside this grove? Thanks.

And then she dumps the pc if she becomes the divine. Double thanks for nothing. I don´t really like overly devoted characters who are hell bent of doing things the one way. Her so called inner softness doesn´t actually show anywhere. Or was it the romantic personality, because I can´t tell. 

[phantomrachie]

It is no more or less discriminating than telling gay players to suck it up and play straight characters.  People pay the same money for a product they should get a product that equally responds to what they want in the product or they won't continue to buy it.  Gay people should be able to pick up a game and be happy, straight people, too.  That's how a company makes money--by making a product that is loved equally.

 

 

Not everyone can be happy with all the LIs, even when there are as many as in DA:I, because that is down to personal taste.

 

BioWare are being equal because they are including enough LIs who could potentially be with most types of sexual orientation, so BioWare are not being discriminatory.

 

When a straight or gay player says I don't like my options and someone says 'well then rp a character with a different sexual orientation, that too is not being discriminatory.

 

However telling someone to suck it up and rp another character to get an LI when there are NO options for them at all, is being discriminatory.

 

So if there were no LIs for straight men in DA:I at all and someone told a person complaining about this, to stuck it up and rp a woman or a gay man, that would be discrimination.

 

see the difference? 

 

The vast majority of games don't even have a gay LI as an option.

 

 

If you are the type that has to be your sex in the game, and to have the type of romance you want based on your orientation then you won't be pleased by the product and people can't expect you to.

 

It's like telling someone that everyone else loves cheese on their burger so you have to eat it on yours.  No, you can choose to not eat the burger, you can choose to go to another restaurant, etc.  You don't have to eat the burger if you are paying for it.

 

This would only be a valid metaphor if DA:I had no straight LIs but it does. Everyone gets a choice of LIs, people may not like them based on their personal preference but there are still LIs there for straight male players.

 

BioWare can't create an LI that works for every single person of all orientations, all they can do is have options. 

 

For example, I would love to romance a Morrigan or Cassandra type character as a women, these types of characters generally tend to be straight and I've love to see one as bi or a lesbian, but just because Cassandra is straight that doesn't mean BioWare have denied me content, if I really feel strongly about her, I can roll a male character (which I will, just like I did for Morrigan)

 

In the mean time my female Inquisitors will romance Josie, Sera & Iron Bull.

 

Besides your argument means that games can't have choices in them at all because players always need access to all the content.

So the game can't make you choose between two factions or whether or not a character dies, because that would cut content from the player and the only way to see the rest of the content would be to roll another character and make a different choice.

 

 

Playersexual means everyone is some level of happy except the writers who want to be artistic and fully use their creativity, and that's nice but they are getting paid to write while we pay to own the product. 

 

I don't care if I have to "share Cullen" with others.  You like him?  Play a romance with him.  You like Solas?  Romance the heck out of him.  Everyone should be somewhat happy with their choices.  I don't require exclusive romantic choices to my gender or orientation.

 

Of course, people will disagree...hence this being a forum.

 

My own argument against 'playersexual characters' and the ones I've seen on these forums are nothing about having to 'share' an LI

 

My arguments are as follows.

 

One

Playersexual characters, take away the agency of the companions in the game and add the idea that all LIs will instantly fall in love with protagonist if they flirt enough. This diminishes the companion and has an negative impact them them being a full rounded character with thoughts, feelings and opinions of their own.

 

As much as I love Cassandra and would like to romance her as a women, I also love that Cassandra will approach a female Inquisitor who has been flirting with her to tell her that she is flattered but not interested. This adds to Cassandra's character and makes her feel more fleshed out.

 

Two

Representation in games and in the media in general is important. There are still many people with a problem with the LGBT+ community and have LGBT+ characters in films, tv shows, games, comics, books etc can help remove some of the stigma around being gay, bi trans etc.

 

It can help LGBT+ feel more accepted in society and give straight people an opportunity to experience things that they may never have had an opportunity to.

 

This same statement goes for any group that is not the stereotypical hero character in media.

 

Three

Playersexual characters reduce the types of story a writer can tell. For example if all LIs in DA:I were playersexual then Dorian's story of his father wanting to change him with blood magic wouldn't have worked, because for female Inquisitors he would've been straight.

 

There are some things that LGBT+ people face that straight people don't, like that fact that Bisexual people have to come out over & over because people assume that the person you are dating or married too indicates your sexual orientation. 

 

These are interesting avenues for exploration in stories and playersexual characters eliminate them from being in a story.

 

 

Ultimately I've no real issue with all the LIs being Bisexual rather than playersexual, if the number of LIs is low. As I believe in giving players a choice.

 

So in games like DA2 where there are only 4 LIs, then them all being Bisexual is fine because then everyone gets at least 2 LIs to choose from.

 

But in games like DA:I with 8 LIs, then each LI can have their own sexual orientation and still give players a choice.

[Zobert]

Neutral characters shouldn't disapprove helping people and being nice to them ^^;

 

Yes, they can if they believe in Nature's Order.  Morrigan and her mother lived in the woods as animals.  Bears aren't evil (except in this game) but they aren't altruistic.  She disapproved of helping the weak who wouldn't (in her opinion) help themselves.

 

She gave you approval points when you helped people who were out there fighting.

[9TailsFox]

Agree. Josephine romance is probably second worst not just DA but Bioware romance. ( 1 place win Jacob of course) Josephine just boring disney princes, I rather romance what guy I have duel with Josephine fiance. And Cass she seem nice but meh like OP say she is not even close to Morriagan level or Isabela maybe because Morrigan and Isabela related to main plot I don't know.

[Draining Dragon]

Yes, they can if they believe in Nature's Order.  Morrigan and her mother lived in the woods as animals.  Bears aren't evil (except in this game) but they aren't altruistic.  She disapproved of helping the weak who wouldn't (in her opinion) help themselves.
 
She gave you approval points when you helped people who were out there fighting.

People who believe in "nature's order" are not necessarily true neutral.

[Vanth]

Also I disagree that playersexual is bisexual.  

 

I agree with this. In some sense your choices as a player define the universe. If you choose to play a mage at the start, you are not a mage and a warrior and a rogue who is just now choosing to express his or her maginess. You are a mage. Similarly there is no real difficulty in regarding Merrill as straight if you romance her as a man and lesbian if you do so as a woman. Your choice defines the universe. 

 

However, I can see that this restricts the writing of the characters somewhat in that one cannot make their sexuality a major companion plot point without jumping through artificial story hoops. For example, Dorian's story could not have been as it is in DA:I if Dorian were playersexual.

 

Therefore it is reasonable for some characters (like Dorian) to be a single defined narrow sexuality. But it is also reasonable for some characters to be player sexual, without any implication of bisexuality. Indeed, I would hope that most companions would not be defined by their sexuality but would be much deeper characters defined by their experiences and histories. To my mind, that is what makes characters like Cole much more interesting than characters like Dorian.  

[Zobert]

Not everyone can be happy with all the LIs, even when there are as many as in DA:I, because that is down to personal taste.

 

BioWare are being equal because they are including enough LIs who could potentially be with most types of sexual orientation, so BioWare are not being discriminatory.

 

When a straight or gay player says I don't like my options and someone says 'well then rp a character with a different sexual orientation, that too is not being discriminatory.

 

However telling someone to suck it up and rp another character to get an LI when there are NO options for them at all, is being discriminatory.

 

So if there were no LIs for straight men in DA:I at all and someone told a person complaining about this, to stuck it up and rp a woman or a gay man, that would be discrimination.

 

see the difference?

 

*************************

 

The vast majority of games don't even have a gay LI as an option.

 

This would only be a valid metaphor if DA:I had no straight LIs but it does. Everyone gets a choice of LIs, people may not like them based on their personal preference but there are still LIs there for straight male players.

 

BioWare can't create an LI that works for every single person of all orientations, all they can do is have options. 

 

For example, I would love to romance a Morrigan or Cassandra type character as a women, these types of characters generally tend to be straight and I've love to see one as bi or a lesbian, but just because Cassandra is straight that doesn't mean BioWare have denied me content, if I really feel strongly about her, I can roll a male character (which I will, just like I did for Morrigan)

 

In the mean time my female Inquisitors will romance Josie, Sera & Iron Bull.

 

Besides your argument means that games can't have choices in them at all because players always need access to all the content.

So the game can't make you choose between two factions or whether or not a character dies, because that would cut content from the player and the only way to see the rest of the content would be to roll another character and make a different choice.

 

***********************

 

My own argument against 'playersexual characters' and the ones I've seen on these forums are nothing about having to 'share' an LI

 

 

Okay, I'll try to respond because you were polite enough to respond to me, but you have to understand I'm really not a "nice" person.  I'm neutral-neutral or neutral-good.  I can only care so much about people who are fighting for social justice causes in video games.  I've lived overseas working in NGOs and see people with real immediate life or death social problems and health problems who would love to have my problems.

 

I do understand being excited about representation in games since all I really had (that I liked) was Lara Croft for awhile, but at the same time It's more important to have women represented in local governments.

 

So...I'll do my best but it will sound harsh because I'm pretty much "over it" having worked with public health in developing countries where "discrimination" is so embedded in the culture that women accept abuse because that's how it is.  To me being able to argue over LIs in a game is just fluffy luxury...

 

1. You stated that :

Not everyone can be happy with all the LIs, even when there are as many as in DA:I, because that is down to personal taste.

 

My response: If that's true then does it not drastically reduce everyone's chance at finding something to their taste if they play "themselves" in the game when we leave it at "2"?

 

 

2. You state that:

BioWare are being equal because they are including enough LIs who could potentially be with most types of sexual orientation, so BioWare are not being discriminatory.

 

When a straight or gay player says I don't like my options and someone says 'well then rp a character with a different sexual orientation, that too is not being discriminatory.

 

However telling someone to suck it up and rp another character to get an LI when there are NO options for them at all, is being discriminatory.

 

 

My response:

They are only being discriminatory if they knowingly (and sometimes it seems like it) make choices that disfavor straight male gamers because gamers in the past who had absolutely nothing to do with the code in former games had more representation.  That is semi-punishing people who did not make the rules rather than viewing people equally with a fresh start to everyone.  There have been comments reps from the company have made that struck me as basically calling out straight male gamers for getting their way as if they somehow wrote the frickin' games.    They're just gamers like us.

 

Furthermore, I never said it was discriminatory.  I said it was rude.  "Suck it up" is rude.  When I tell people "suck it up" I am purposefully being rude to them because I am sick of their whining.

 

Discriminatory is a water fountain that your tax dollars helped to pay for and you can't use it.  Discriminatory is you paying taxes for children to go to school when you don't have kids.  Discriminatory is saying that even though you pay an enormous amount in federal taxes you can't marry who you want to and have the family of your choice.  Discriminatory is not a consumption-based product not supplying you with a particular want or desire.  That's the market.  If you apply social justice terms to the market then every piece of clothing, every car, every product is discriminatory to someone who cannot use it how they like.

 

You said:

So if there were no LIs for straight men in DA:I at all and someone told a person complaining about this, to stuck it up and rp a woman or a gay man, that would be discrimination.

 

see the difference?

 

My response:

 

No, it would be a product that doesn't fit.  Tell me how the size 22 female feels when she sees fashions made by designers who are dressing only size "0-6's".  That probably feels like discrimination, too, that they have to go to specialty stores like Lane Bryant, but it's not.  It's the market.  They can shop somewhere else.

 

As far as seeing the difference I see a nice person (you) wanting a nice world and thinking that video games are not a consumption-based product but an inherent right.  I disagree with that.  It is a product that doesn't have to correct social ills--that's your and my job using door-to-door activism.  It is a product which should appeal to a large market OR (which is what I think they're doing) saying THIS is our new target market because we want the female and GLBT gamers.

 

You said:

The vast majority of games don't even have a gay LI as an option.

 

My response:

Which is why Bioware is unique and is carving out an area of the gaming world.  Very smart of them, IMO.  Doesn't mean that they are considerate of straight gamers in the same way they are considerate of "me" and the GLBT community.

 

 

As for the rest of it...my response:

 

 

And this goes to the circular argument where I tell you gays could do that for Alastair or Cullen instead of wanting a gay KISA.  Why should they have to?

 

You just paid $60 for a game, if you bought it new, why shouldn't you be able to use the product like YOU want to use it?  I also feel the same way about this BS piracy stuff.  if I buy a CD I should be able to share it.  If I purchase something, I don't care what the product is I should have the ability to use it fully.

 

In my opinion, of course.  I like being able to own a product that I just worked really hard to have the money to pay for.  You did buy the product, right?  It wasn't "free" for you.  When you purchase a product it would be nice to have full, not partial functionality.

 

And, btw, this was also my argument to the straight male gamers when that whole Zevran and Anders BS started.  Gays have a right to the same level of product because they paid the same money.

 

Okay, but to quote The Dude, that's just like...your opinion, mannnn.  I don't say that to be rude, but just factual.  People are buying products and want what they want.  It is no different, none whatsoever, between someone wanting fries instead of salad.  I'd rather have the salad, but some people like greasy crap.

 

I personally don't care who I romance because like I said, I play for the things I can't get in real life, but to some it is extremely important on all sides.  I understand where they are coming from and I only speak up because they are treated like whiners because they just spent $60--which would feed an entire family in Egypt for 2months on a game during a pretty sluggish economy.

 

They are allowed to complain, allowed to want what they want, without having to be a party to anyone's social justice concerns.  I'm happy to have those concerns but I don't feel like anyone owes me their intellectual charity, their time, or their inclinations.

 

They just want to play the game, man, and romance who they want without restriction.  I want that for everyone.

[Zobert]

I agree with this. In some sense your choices as a player define the universe. If you choose to play a mage at the start, you are not a mage and a warrior and a rogue who is just now choosing to express his or her maginess. You are a mage. Similarly there is no real difficulty in regarding Merrill as straight if you romance her as a man and lesbian if you do so as a woman. Your choice defines the universe. 

 

However, I can see that this restricts the writing of the characters somewhat in that one cannot make their sexuality a major companion plot point without jumping through artificial story hoops. For example, Dorian's story could not have been as it is in DA:I if Dorian were playersexual.

 

Therefore it is reasonable for some characters (like Dorian) to be a single defined narrow sexuality. But it is also reasonable for some characters to be player sexual, without any implication of bisexuality. Indeed, I would hope that most companions would not be defined by their sexuality but would be much deeper characters defined by their experiences and histories. To my mind, that is what makes characters like Cole much more interesting than characters like Dorian.  

 

While I was happy enough to help my buddy Dorian, there was a breach going on and his story, while intriguing, wasn't necessary.  I personally liked it, but not everyone does/did/or played it through with him.  If they writers wanted to they could have made his story something universal like they do with Varric or anyone else.

 

Bioware is using this game as a platform for their political/social beliefs and that's awesome for me as a beneficiary, but that's not for everyone.  Some people just want to fight dragons.

 

My arguments are just the devil's argument.  I personally don't care either way.  I just roll my eyes when people pretend that there aren't many people unhappy with their choices straight or gay with the way they do it now.

 

There is a whole thread about gay KISAs because you cannot represent the widest swath of choice with "2" options.  You can choose the dashing Tevinter mage or a dude that looks like Satan.  You can choose a self-loathing elf or a non-companion with JLo booty.  You can choose a woman with King Leonidas's hair who can chain grapple and kill your ass if she feels like it or a non-companion with Jlo booty.

 

In their aim to be inclusive they reduced options for everyone to "2"...UNLESS you choose to play as something other than you are, which is pretty much what they told women for the last 20 - 30 years of gaming.

[phantomrachie]

Okay, I'll try to respond because you were polite enough to respond to me, but you have to understand I'm really not a "nice" person.  I'm neutral-neutral or neutral-good.  I can only care so much about people who are fighting for social justice causes in video games.  I've lived overseas working in NGOs and see people with real immediate life or death social problems and health problems who would love to have my problems.

 

I do understand being excited about representation in games since all I really had (that I liked) was Lara Croft for awhile, but at the same time It's more important to have women represented in local governments.

 

While I agree that real world issues are far more important that what is going on in a videogame, the impact that our media has on real world issues can't be denied.

 

There is a lot to racism, sexism & homophobia that can be affected by media.

 

For example: if black people are always criminals in T.V. shows then this can lead to an unconscious bias against black people. A person who watches a lot of T.V. were black people are criminals could see a black person on the street at night and unconsciously feel worried or afraid. It could also have an unconscious effect on their decision making process around hiring, dating or just dealing with people generally.

 

This is why representation matters, but just because its nice, but because it helps with these unconscious biases that we all have. 

 

You want to see more women in government? Me too. Many people think that women aren't suitable for leadership roles, showing women in more leadership roles in media would help overcome this.

 

 

 

1. You stated that :

Not everyone can be happy with all the LIs, even when there are as many as in DA:I, because that is down to personal taste.

 

My response: If that's true then does it not drastically reduce everyone's chance at finding something to their taste if they play "themselves" in the game when we leave it at "2"?

 

 

I agree, but I also think that there is a balance to be struck between giving a player choice and given companions enough agency to feel like well rounded characters.

 

If companions can't make their own choices, then they are just puppets of the protagonist. 

 

That is one of the reasons why most of the companions in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim are so one dimensional, they have no agency of their own.

 

 

 

2. You state that:

BioWare are being equal because they are including enough LIs who could potentially be with most types of sexual orientation, so BioWare are not being discriminatory.

 

When a straight or gay player says I don't like my options and someone says 'well then rp a character with a different sexual orientation, that too is not being discriminatory.

 

However telling someone to suck it up and rp another character to get an LI when there are NO options for them at all, is being discriminatory.

 

 

My response:

They are only being discriminatory if they knowingly (and sometimes it seems like it) make choices that disfavor straight male gamers because gamers in the past who had absolutely nothing to do with the code in former games had more representation.  That is semi-punishing people who did not make the rules rather than viewing people equally with a fresh start to everyone.  There have been comments reps from the company have made that struck me as basically calling out straight male gamers for getting their way as if they somehow wrote the frickin' games.    They're just gamers like us.

 

Furthermore, I never said it was discriminatory.  I said it was rude.  "Suck it up" is rude.  When I tell people "suck it up" I am purposefully being rude to them because I am sick of their whining.

 

Discriminatory is a water fountain that your tax dollars helped to pay for and you can't use it.  Discriminatory is you paying taxes for children to go to school when you don't have kids.  Discriminatory is saying that even though you pay an enormous amount in federal taxes you can't marry who you want to and have the family of your choice.  Discriminatory is not a consumption-based product not supplying you with a particular want or desire.  That's the market.  If you apply social justice terms to the market then every piece of clothing, every car, every product is discriminatory to someone who cannot use it how they like.

 

I used the world discriminatory because a couple of people on this thread and other threads have said that the lack of LIs for straight male gamers in DA:I is discrimination.

 

I wanted to show my reasoning about why this is not true in terms that you and anyone else reading my post would understand.

 

My basic argument is that all gamers still have a choice, a choice they may not like, but a choice none the less.

 

Not all gay gamers liked Leliana or Zevran as LI options in DA:O, and while threads were created asking for a specific type of gay romance, like for example a 'Knight in Shining Armour' there were no threads created about how Leliana & Zevran were too ugly, boring silly etc for gay gamers.

 

Now that some straight gamers don't like Cass or Joise as LIs, there is a thread almost every week about how ugly or boring they are.

 

Very few threads from these gamers talk about a romance they'd like to see in the future.

 

I think it is very telling.

 

 

 

You said:

So if there were no LIs for straight men in DA:I at all and someone told a person complaining about this, to stuck it up and rp a woman or a gay man, that would be discrimination.

 

see the difference?

 

My response:

 

No, it would be a product that doesn't fit.  Tell me how the size 22 female feels when she sees fashions made by designers who are dressing only size "0-6's".  That probably feels like discrimination, too, that they have to go to specialty stores like Lane Bryant, but it's not.  It's the market.  They can shop somewhere else.

 

As far as seeing the difference I see a nice person (you) wanting a nice world and thinking that video games are not a consumption-based product but an inherent right.  I disagree with that.  It is a product that doesn't have to correct social ills--that's your and my job using door-to-door activism.  It is a product which should appeal to a large market OR (which is what I think they're doing) saying THIS is our new target market because we want the female and GLBT gamers.

 

You said:

The vast majority of games don't even have a gay LI as an option.

 

My response:

Which is why Bioware is unique and is carving out an area of the gaming world.  Very smart of them, IMO.  Doesn't mean that they are considerate of straight gamers in the same way they are considerate of "me" and the GLBT community.

 

 

I don't understand your reasoning about the 'product not fitting' there are straight LIs for male gamers. The product wouldn't fit if there were none in this game.

 

How are they not being considerate of straight gamers? BioWare adding some gay characters to a game doesn't take away the fact that they are still being considerate of straight gamers.

 

Just like including women in their games doesn't mean they've stopped being considerate to men.

 

I realise that the world won't change just because there are some gay characters in a game, but given the effect the media has on us, that combined with 'door knocking' certainly could.

 

 

As for the rest of it...my response:

 

 

And this goes to the circular argument where I tell you gays could do that for Alastair or Cullen instead of wanting a gay KISA.  Why should they have to?

 

You just paid $60 for a game, if you bought it new, why shouldn't you be able to use the product like YOU want to use it?  I also feel the same way about this BS piracy stuff.  if I buy a CD I should be able to share it.  If I purchase something, I don't care what the product is I should have the ability to use it fully.

 

In my opinion, of course.  I like being able to own a product that I just worked really hard to have the money to pay for.  You did buy the product, right?  It wasn't "free" for you.  When you purchase a product it would be nice to have full, not partial functionality.

 

And, btw, this was also my argument to the straight male gamers when that whole Zevran and Anders BS started.  Gays have a right to the same level of product because they paid the same money.

 

Okay, but to quote The Dude, that's just like...your opinion, mannnn.  I don't say that to be rude, but just factual.  People are buying products and want what they want.  It is no different, none whatsoever, between someone wanting fries instead of salad.  I'd rather have the salad, but some people like greasy crap.

 

I personally don't care who I romance because like I said, I play for the things I can't get in real life, but to some it is extremely important on all sides.  I understand where they are coming from and I only speak up because they are treated like whiners because they just spent $60--which would feed an entire family in Egypt for 2months on a game during a pretty sluggish economy.

 

They are allowed to complain, allowed to want what they want, without having to be a party to anyone's social justice concerns.  I'm happy to have those concerns but I don't feel like anyone owes me their intellectual charity, their time, or their inclinations.

 

They just want to play the game, man, and romance who they want without restriction.  I want that for everyone.

 

Ok fair enough, I spend money on a game, why wouldn't I want to get access to all of its content? Except games are probably the only form of media that routinely denies you access to content. 

 

Content could be denied to you based on your ability 

 

• Can't beat a boss? - denied access to the rest of the game
• Can't solve a puzzle? - denied access to the rest of the game
• Can't complete a hard jump? - denied access to the rest of the game
• Can't win a race? - denied access to the rest of the game 

 

Or based on the mechanics of the game itself.

 

• Have to make a decision between two factions? - denied access to the content from the faction you didn't choose.
• Be a Good Karma character? - denied access to the bad/neutral karma content 
• Be a Bad Karma character? - denied access to the good/neutral karma content 
• Be a Neutral Karma character? - denied access to the bad/good karma content 
• Pick a Warrior? - denied access to any dialogue or quest options for the other classes
• Don't put points into a specific skill? - denied access to additional dialogue or quest options.
• Don't want to recruit a character? - denied access to quests and dialogue.

 

Games are not like a book where you pay your money and can read the whole thing. Most games, particularly RPGs & Action games are full of decisions that the player makes that could potentially cut them off from content.

 

Why should LIs be the exception to this? Why should LIs be reduced to puppets of the player, just avoid losing out on content? when any number of other decisions could also mean you don't get access to certain content. 

[Dai Grepher]

I don't mind the romance options, but I agree there should have been more for other players to choose from. My character fit with Cassandra perfectly, so I don't mind. I just wish there had been more instances to develop the romance further or do other romantic things. Making out is fine, but that's pretty much all there was. In fact, the flirting that lead up to the romance seemed to be the part with the most dialogue and content.

[Zobert]

While I agree that real world issues are far more important that what is going on in a videogame, the impact that our media has on real world issues can't be denied.

 

There is a lot to racism, sexism & homophobia that can be affected by media.

 

For example: if black people are always criminals in T.V. shows then this can lead to an unconscious bias against black people. A person who watches a lot of T.V. were black people are criminals could see a black person on the street at night and unconsciously feel worried or afraid. It could also have an unconscious effect on their decision making process around hiring, dating or just dealing with people generally.

 

This is why representation matters, but just because its nice, but because it helps with these unconscious biases that we all have. 

 

You want to see more women in government? Me too. Many people think that women aren't suitable for leadership roles, showing women in more leadership roles in media would help overcome this.

[/quote]

 

Ohhhh that's a can of worms (media + women) since the media is what divides us.  I don't agree with Sarah Palin's politics at all BUT the way that women look the other way when misogynistic rants are hurled her way BECAUSE it is Sarah Palin I have to say I lose a lot of faith in the media and our reception of the message being translated.

 

Bill Maher called her the C-Word and women were all **crickets chirping** imagine if Herman Caine (a Republican) were called the N-word on national TV by Maher--do you think blacks would stand for it?

 

No.

 

Women heroes are awesome, totes.  I'm glad we have them but not because it spreads a message because quite frankly no video game in the world will compete with Beyonce and Katy Perry riding the pole and being male spank spots and then slapping a label of "empowerment" on it.

 

Obviously, riding the pole is more empowering than leading the work on radioactivity or being a female astronaut or being a female fighter pilot.  Sorry sensitive subject for me.

 

 

 

 

I agree, but I also think that there is a balance to be struck between giving a player choice and given companions enough agency to feel like well rounded characters.

 

I don't disagree but you're also acting like they can't write beautiful stories that are appealing to the human experience, not a specific orientation's experience and that is not true.

 

To quote Shakespeare's Shylock: 

 

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you ****** us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
           (III.i.49–61)

 

If companions can't make their own choices, then they are just puppets of the protagonist. 

 

They already are.  You order them all around the field in combat.

 

That is one of the reasons why most of the companions in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim are so one dimensional, they have no agency of their own.

 

That's kind of a poor comparison because Elder Scrolls has never included companions before.  You've always been a lone wolf.  They were rushing to get open world out.  Their audience is not the same as Bioware so they don't write for that audience.

 

 

I used the world discriminatory because a couple of people on this thread and other threads have said that the lack of LIs for straight male gamers in DA:I is discrimination.

 

I wanted to show my reasoning about why this is not true in terms that you and anyone else reading my post would understand.

 

My basic argument is that all gamers still have a choice, a choice they may not like, but a choice none the less.

 

Not all gay gamers liked Leliana or Zevran as LI options in DA:O, and while threads were created asking for a specific type of gay romance, like for example a 'Knight in Shining Armour' there were no threads created about how Leliana & Zevran were too ugly, boring silly etc for gay gamers.

 

Now that some straight gamers don't like Cass or Joise as LIs, there is a thread almost every week about how ugly or boring they are.

 

Very few threads from these gamers talk about a romance they'd like to see in the future.

 

I think it is very telling.

 

 

 

Well, it's not like they would get what they wanted even if they asked for it.  The attitude of Bioware's DA teams isn't very sympathetic to straight gamers.  I love Bioware products (Dragon Age: Origins is up there with Skyrim for my favorite game ever) but I'm not going to sit back and pretend that they don't see that their financial bread is buttered on women and the GLBT community.

 

 

 

I don't understand your reasoning about the 'product not fitting' there are straight LIs for male gamers. The product wouldn't fit if there were none in this game.

 

How are they not being considerate of straight gamers? BioWare adding some gay characters to a game doesn't take away the fact that they are still being considerate of straight gamers.

 

I've read the interviews where they basically say "Straight gamers are whiners."  Look, they give straight guys the same options are gay guys, as lesbians, et al in numbers.  BUT they don't think about what a straight guy wants when designing characters.  Now, people can say that beauty is subjective out of one side of their mouth and then complain with the other that their bf hates short hair on women or fight with the guys who complain about short hair on women, etc. and ignore that MOST guys want a chick with hair.

 

The fact is they made a handsome woman in Cassandra.  She's a handsome woman with a somewhat male anima that takes a refined taste to appreciate.  I love Cassandra.  Straight and gay women love Cassandra because she is someone we can look up to.  That doesn't mean a straight guy wants to bang her.

 

Like there is a reason why the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition sells more than any of their other issues, ya know?

 

 

 

 

Just like including women in their games doesn't mean they've stopped being considerate to men.

 

I realise that the world won't change just because there are some gay characters in a game, but given the effect the media has on us, that combined with 'door knocking' certainly could.

 

 

IF i were Bioware, a for-profit company I would keep doing what I'm doing.  Women will still buy the game, the GLBT community will still buy the game, and straight guys who are more "enlightened" will still buy the game.  They will eventually lose the crowd that just wants to slash somethings or the crowd that wants to sex up the buxom beauty, but they have a loyal fanbase.

 

Let's just not pretend that Bioware cares about the straight male gamer as much as it cares about you, me, and the people in the gay KISA thread.  There's nothing wrong with admitting that they have a target audience.

 

That is just good business practice.  Know your customers and deliver what it wants.

[9TailsFox]

So like, I'd like to see a super sexy tentcle monster in the next game. It's really dissapointing that We didn't have that in the game.

But we did. Did you play Dragon age awakening?

Spoiler

[o Ventus]

So like, I'd like to see a super sexy tentcle monster in the next game. It's really dissapointing that We didn't have that in the game.

 

Shuma Gorath for romance and squaddie in DA4/ME4

 

[Panda]

I've read the interviews where they basically say "Straight gamers are whiners."  Look, they give straight guys the same options are gay guys, as lesbians, et al in numbers.  BUT they don't think about what a straight guy wants when designing characters.  Now, people can say that beauty is subjective out of one side of their mouth and then complain with the other that their bf hates short hair on women or fight with the guys who complain about short hair on women, etc. and ignore that MOST guys want a chick with hair.

 

The fact is they made a handsome woman in Cassandra.  She's a handsome woman with a somewhat male anima that takes a refined taste to appreciate.  I love Cassandra.  Straight and gay women love Cassandra because she is someone we can look up to.  That doesn't mean a straight guy wants to bang her.

 

Like there is a reason why the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition sells more than any of their other issues, ya know?

 

 

Let's just not pretend that Bioware cares about the straight male gamer as much as it cares about you, me, and the people in the gay KISA thread.  There's nothing wrong with admitting that they have a target audience.

 

Alright so, because Bioware has same numbers for male gamers LI-wise and 1 of these LI's has short hair, they are suddenly making characters only for women players and LGBT+? Just nope. If that was case male animations wouldn't be reused for female characters. DAI is still animated for male character first and then for female. That says opposite what you said.

 

Also like I have said in other threads, these male gamers who always think female characters should be sexy (as revealing clothing etc.) and have long hair, they need to grow up and widen their horizons. I have never heard female players and LGBT+ players saying something so vain. Of cource there is players who don't like Dorian's moustache or Solas' bald head, but they don't demand Bioware to fix these characters and they don't cry how it's bias against all female gamers/LGBT+ gamers. It comes down entitlement and usually also sexism with these male players who complain, since pretty often they use sexist arguments to prove their cases of how Josie and Cassandra are no-no.

[9TailsFox]

Alright so, because Bioware has same numbers for male gamers LI-wise and 1 of these LI's has short hair, they are suddenly making characters only for women players and LGBT+? Just nope. If that was case male animations wouldn't be reused for female characters. DAI is still animated for male character first and then for female. That says opposite what you said.

 

Also like I have said in other threads, these male gamers who always think female characters should be sexy (as revealing clothing etc.) and have long hair, they need to grow up and widen their horizons. I have never heard female players and LGBT+ players saying something so vain. Of cource there is players who don't like Dorian's moustache or Solas' bald head, but they don't demand Bioware to fix these characters and they don't cry how it's bias against all female gamers/LGBT+ gamers. It comes down entitlement and usually also sexism with these male players who complain, since pretty often they use sexist arguments to prove their cases of how Josie and Cassandra are no-no.

1) Male have 2 Female LI and only one is companion. Female have 4 male LI and 3 is companions.

 

2)Females characters in DA:I was made for Female. Males was made for females. Look at Cullen how many females drooling over him since DA:O. Females get sexy blonde with six pack who need fixing. Who runs naked. All female LI are human. Male LI elf, Qunari.

 

3)Look at topics like all females in game must wear "proper" armour. and look like this

Spoiler

When Iron bull fights dragons half naked.

Spoiler

img]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/342/4/b/iron_bull_and_dragons_by_fishmas-d895gvz.gif[/img]

 

4)Solas "hair" Cass short hair. it's not opinion it's fact DA:I hair sucks, we have 20 options of bald.

 

5)And thanks grandpa if I wanted to grow up and widen my horizons, I would go to work, because where I work 99% is female. Some attractive some not. I romancing video game character not looking for wife. And I want sexy pirate ****. And if someone create topic asking more sexy female. people must come to topic and scream sexist, because they don't have real argument why we can't have characters like Isabella.

We just express opinion we don't like design of some characters. Why no one scream sexist when people call male elf ugly?

[Panda]

1) Male have 2 Female LI and only one is companion. Female have 4 male LI and 3 is companions.

 

2)Females characters in DA:I was made for Female. Males was made for females. Look at Cullen how many females drooling over him since DA:O. Females get sexy blonde with six pack who need fixing. Who runs naked. All female LI are human. Male LI elf, Qunari.

 

3)Look at topics like all females in game must wear "proper" armour. and look like this

Spoiler

When Iron bull fights dragons half naked.

Spoiler

img]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/342/4/b/iron_bull_and_dragons_by_fishmas-d895gvz.gif[/img]

 

4)Solas "hair" Cass short hair. it's not opinion it's fact DA:I hair sucks, we have 20 options of bald.

 

5)And thanks grandpa if I wanted to grow up and widen my horizons, I would go to work, because where I work 99% is female. Some attractive some not. I romancing video game character not looking for wife. And I want sexy pirate ****. And if someone create topic asking more sexy female. people must come to topic and scream sexist, because they don't have real argument why we can't have characters like Isabella.

We just express opinion we don't like design of some characters. Why no one scream sexist when people call male elf ugly?

 

1) Male gamers have same numbers as in previous games and same numbers as gay/lesbian/non-human and non-elf straight female characters. So not big wrongness. Because DAI doesn't have enough female companions the situation is what it is, maybe people should start asking more female characters, hmm? Or would that just result more of females everywhere threads, probaply.

 

2) How are female characters made for females? Because they don't have long hair and revealing outfit? Lol. Cullen being sexy or nor is same as Cassandra being sexy or not, some think so and some don't.

 

3) I haven't seen many people complaining about Isabela's or Vivienne's revealing outfits. Why? Cause it fits to characters and their style. Cassandra wearing revealing armor would be against her character for example and her being military leader. Cullen doesn't wear revealing armor either. It really depends on character what fits.

 

4) Did I say Solases or Cassandra's hair or lack of hair sucks? No, because it doesn't. I love both hairstyles.

 

5) Calling Cassandra lady-man-hands, manly, saying that female characters can't have scars although they are warriors, wide jaws, different type of noses, moles, short hair.. well it really tells more of these male gamers than these characters. Especially when they try to prove their cases on biology and evolution theory, like we are humans here not animals who have only instincts and not brains.

[Uccio]

1) Male gamers have same numbers as in previous games and same numbers as gay/lesbian/non-human and non-elf straight female characters. 

 

yes, if you count Josephine. I personally put her in the same slot with Kelly Chambers. Not a real romance but a add on. Very similar.

[9TailsFox]

yes, if you count Josephine. I personally put her in the same slot with Kelly Chambers. Not a real romance but a add on. Very similar.

This Josephine is like Kelly Chambers her to do paperwork. Most boring and short romance, probably worst romance in all DA games.

[Tayah]

Saying hair on any character is for male or female audiences is kinda pointless since the reason the hairstyles are what they are for male and female characters alike is because Bioware sucks at making hair... it really is that simple. I don't think you can even blame it on the fact it's a new engine because even on the old engines mass effect and DAO and DA2 the hairstyles were... well mediocre (hence the hair mods for previous DA games ).

 

 

1) Male gamers have same numbers as in previous games and same numbers as gay/lesbian/non-human and non-elf straight female characters. So not big wrongness. Because DAI doesn't have enough female companions the situation is what it is, maybe people should start asking more female characters, hmm? Or would that just result more of females everywhere threads, probaply.

 

2) How are female characters made for females? Because they don't have long hair and revealing outfit? Lol. Cullen being sexy or nor is same as Cassandra being sexy or not, some think so and some don't.

 

3) I haven't seen many people complaining about Isabela's or Vivienne's revealing outfits. Why? Cause it fits to characters and their style. Cassandra wearing revealing armor would be against her character for example and her being military leader. Cullen doesn't wear revealing armor either. It really depends on character what fits.

 

4) Did I say Solases or Cassandra's hair or lack of hair sucks? No, because it doesn't. I love both hairstyles.

 

5) Calling Cassandra lady-man-hands, manly, saying that female characters can't have scars although they are warriors, wide jaws, different type of noses, moles, short hair.. well it really tells more of these male gamers than these characters. Especially when they try to prove their cases on biology and evolution theory, like we are humans here not animals who have only instincts and not brains.

I remember a few threads when the companion cast was announced where guys were coming in saying having more female companions would be terrible and that having so many guys in the team was great because 'bros before hoes' and that sort of thing. I guess the side effect of that is less romance options for them... and unfortunately for f/f players too which was one reason why I was concerned there were only 3 female companions at the time.

 

 

yes, if you count Josephine. I personally put her in the same slot with Kelly Chambers. Not a real romance but a add on. Very similar.

Josephine is more like Traynor than Chambers, there's a similar feel in that they basically stay on the ship/Skyhold for most of the game, even Josie's time at the palace is limited in content and they don't really have interactions with many of the other characters that you see making them seem less present in a way. I like Josephine but I felt like a lot of the time I could have missed her easily in Skyhold if she wasn't in my path to the war room. She feels like she needed more development though that could be a pacing issue with the game too, which I think has a big impact on the way some romances feel compared to others.

 

 If you feel Josephine doesn't count does that mean you also think lesbians only got one option?

[Abelas Forever!]

If people don't count Josephine as LI then I wouldn't count Solas as LI either because Solas don't have much romance specific content.