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[The NightMan Cometh]

Page 34....WOOOOOHOOOOOO...Let's party Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Modifié par The NightMan Cometh, 19 avril 2015 - 09:20 .

[David Diablo]

You're risking it... 

[The NightMan Cometh]

^^^^^^ Risking what?????????

 

[Quarian Master Race]

Page 34....WOOOOOHOOOOOO...Let's party Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Anne Hathaway

You're gonna get my glorious thread locked

On topic, I'm pretty sure this thread lacks a single picture of Kal Reegar, which is unacceptable.


Man walks around the ship in a hat like that, people know he's not afraid of anything

[Quarian Master Race]

Not gonna lie, especially since my threads always get deleted. I haven't found the way to walk the line and I don't think anyone will for 33 pages again... 

 

33 pages?

https://www.youtube....Xfo60N0#t=0m48s

[TheN7Penguin]

Is this a thread full of pictures of aliens from Mass Effect in random items of human clothing? Yahg in a dress, Quarian in a hat...

[Quarian Master Race]

Quarian in a hat...

That isn't just any quarian in any hat.......

[TheN7Penguin]

Kal-Reegar - the guy who tried to solo a Colossus. You know anyone is cool when they try to do that.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Kal-Reegar - the guy who tried to solo a Colossus. You know anyone is cool when they try to do that.

 

He only did it for Tali. Wouldn't we do the same? For her?

[EbonyBrotherhood]

He only did it for Tali. Wouldn't we do the same? For her?

Tali is cool, but be careful when you mention her, for you may summon one of them.

The horrifying eldritch abominations from beyond the combat strategy board, known only as 'Talimancers'.

Hear them, and hear the cries of those who have long since sacrificed their humanity to better follow a dark path. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Tali is cool, but be careful when you mention her, for you may summon one of them.

The horrifying eldritch abominations from beyond the combat strategy board, known only as 'Talimancers'.

Hear them, and hear the cries of those who have long since sacrificed their humanity to better follow a dark path. 

 

I recently started a new Mass Effect 1-3 playthrough with a male Shephard. He's not even a Spectre yet... and I wonder who I should romance, if any. Liara or Tali? All the other women aren't an option I'm afraid. Although Kelly is cute and cuddly.

 

Anyway, Tali is the most adorable admiral ever.

[The NightMan Cometh]

You're gonna get my glorious thread locked

On topic, I'm pretty sure this thread lacks a single picture of Kal Reegar, which is unacceptable.


Man walks around the ship in a hat like that, people know he's not afraid of anything

 

[The NightMan Cometh]

I recently started a new Mass Effect 1-3 playthrough with a male Shephard. He's not even a Spectre yet... and I wonder who I should romance, if any. Liara or Tali? All the other women aren't an option I'm afraid. Although Kelly is cute and cuddly.

 

Anyway, Tali is the most adorable admiral ever.

I started a new run myself in ME1--I think my Fem Shep is going thru this one all by her lonesome

[DaemionMoadrin]

I started a new run myself in ME1--I think my Fem Shep is going thru this one all by her lonesome

 

I did that with my adept fem!Shep. No romance in 1 or 2... but in the end she fell for Traynor. We don't count Kelly, that was just... uh... therapy.

[The NightMan Cometh]

I did that with my adept fem!Shep. No romance in 1 or 2... but in the end she fell for Traynor. We don't count Kelly, that was just... uh... therapy.

Maybe in ME3, i will bang Allers then kick her off the ship.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Maybe in ME3, i will bang Allers then kick her off the ship.

 

I wouldn't touch that without wearing a hazmat suit.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I recently started a new Mass Effect 1-3 playthrough with a male Shephard. He's not even a Spectre yet... and I wonder who I should romance, if any. Liara or Tali? All the other women aren't an option I'm afraid. Although Kelly is cute and cuddly.

 

Anyway, Tali is the most adorable admiral ever.

 

It depends a lot on what route you go in terms of morality. Tali's romance is much better than Liara's if you're a Paragon. Liara's romance is much better than Tali's if you're a Renegade. I think that Tali's is far and away better overall, but the rainbows-and-butterflies Quarian fawning over a guy who pushes people out of windows, lies to others and kills indiscriminately is really stretching the bounds of plausibility. Liara ends up becoming the leader of the most cutthroat spy ring in the Milky Way, so it makes far more sense for her to be sympathetic to Shepard's Renegade dickery.

 

For purely gameplay-related purposes, this is all irrelevant. It's an unfortunate side-effect of lacking an Approval system like Dragon Age. Limitations like not being able to romance Tali if you constantly mistreat the Quarians, or not being able to romance Liara if you put down her ambitions would've added a lot of depth to everything. Fortunately, ME is an RPG series, so metagaming and RPing different arcs aren't ridiculous things to do.

[Quarian Master Race]

It depends a lot on what route you go in terms of morality. Tali's romance is much better than Liara's if you're a Paragon. Liara's romance is much better than Tali's if you're a Renegade. I think that Tali's is far and away better overall, but the rainbows-and-butterflies Quarian fawning over a guy who pushes people out of windows, lies to others and kills indiscriminately is really stretching the bounds of plausibility. Liara ends up becoming the leader of the most cutthroat spy ring in the Milky Way, so it makes far more sense for her to be sympathetic to Shepard's Renegade dickery.

Morality on the P/R really doesn't matter so much because squadmates and their dialouge (romance included) is modified and changed by it so that Paragon and Renegade get essentially slightly different characters. Tali's not rainbows and butterflies either way unless supporting things like allowing the Council and 10,000 innocents to burn simply for political gain, or dehumanizing, enjoying the killing of, and genociding an entire race of what a lot of people in universe (and the game's own morality system) considers to be sentient, sapient living creatures are somehow nice. Liara's a different story, since she started off as a naive, idealist who literally supports every single Paragon decision in ME1 but then her writing went of the rails to turn her into a Mob boss. Yet in ME3  we still have her decrying the genophage, supporting the geth, complaining about Falere's murder and crying over/ blaming herself for her own peoples' stupid decisions. Really, all the squadmates have a morality that is a little too complex to just fit as "paragon" or "renegade" apart from maybe Kaidan and Javik.

The best romance option for an all Renegade Shep who pushes random people out of windows and kills indiscriminately is obviously Morinth, because they are both completely insane.
 

For purely gameplay-related purposes, this is all irrelevant. It's an unfortunate side-effect of lacking an Approval system like Dragon Age. Limitations like not being able to romance Tali if you constantly mistreat the Quarians, or not being able to romance Liara if you put down her ambitions would've added a lot of depth to everything. Fortunately, ME is an RPG series, so metagaming and RPing different arcs aren't ridiculous things to do.

on the other hand, being a Pro Pircle mage and gift spamming Morrigan into a romance isn't much better than repeatedly calling Miranda a cocky Cerberus b!tch and being able to do the same. If they did as you were suggesting, though, people would complain about some of the romances being locked out, because a lot of them are antisocial misanthropes who think this game is a goddamn fantasy dating simulator and they should be able to do what/who they please, with everyone hero worshipping them regardless of how real people actually work. 

Really, if they included any realistic level of reactivity, your entire crew should just mutiny at some of the stupid things you can do. 

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Morality on the P/R really doesn't matter so much because squadmates and their dialouge (romance included) is modified and changed by it so that Paragon and Renegade get essentially slightly different characters. Tali's not rainbows and butterflies either way unless supporting things like allowing the Council and 10,000 innocents to burn simply for political gain, or dehumanizing, enjoying the killing of, and genociding an entire race of what a lot of people in universe (and the game's own morality system) considers to be sentient, sapient living creatures are somehow nice.

 

IMO, the moral decisions in ME1 don't count, because it's written specifically for two people to take differing views but they only go a certain way depending on who else is on your squad. That's a big technicality, and doesn't factor in much to how Tali was written, particularly in the second and third games, where everyone got more characterization.

 

With an approval system, sure, there could be exploits like the gift-spamming, but that'd be easy to avoid--just get rid of some of the gifts. In my DAO playthrough, I raised Morrigan's approval to 100 fairly quickly. Just had to pick the right dialogue options and NOT bring her along when I felt like being especially heroic. The next Mass Effect could use that sort of in-game planning. It'd add another layer to the strategy.

[Ardat-Yakshi Master Race]

 

Really, if they included any realistic level of reactivity, your entire crew should just mutiny at some of the stupid things you can do. 

Reminds me of Garrus's line about refusing suicide missions.....

 

I don't think Garrus WOULD mutiny, partly because of his attitude about fighting..... He REALLY likes killing things and REALLY likes calibrating a big gun, and all on top of his honor system.... Tali on the other hand after several things should have tried 'testing' her suit's capabilities in a vacuum without telling anyone... Liara was smart to bail when she did and pretty much went with Shep in 3 because there was no other way off of mars.... Annnd Kaiden/Ashley because that was a convinient way off Earth and had to be convinced to return. Joker is so in love with his ship that he eventually looks up ways to romance it... Anderson was like nope, not gonna do it, rather be on Earth than have these shennanigans.... Samara died... Morinth shoulda stayed.....

[Quarian Master Race]

IMO, the moral decisions in ME1 don't count, because it's written specifically for two people to take differing views but they only go a certain way depending on who else is on your squad. That's a big technicality, and doesn't factor in much to how Tali was written, particularly in the second and third games, where everyone got more characterization.

I disagree. You can easily tell what their actual opinions are on any subject is by playing the game enough and picking all different squad members enough to establish a mode for their reactions. In the Council saving decision, for example, it goes from most in favour of saving to least in favor.

Liara>Kaidan>Garrus>Tali>Ashley>Wrex. For Rachni queen decision, you just switch Tali and Garrus around. Basically, any combination of two squadmates will always have the one further to the left side making the "paragon" argument, and you can deduce their relative position on the issue from what they will argue more often.

The behavioral and dialouge differences are also consistent into ME2 and ME3, even if they do away with that particular system. It goes so far as to radically change their behavior even. If you airlock Legion in ME2 for instance, Tali basically keeps the same renegade "kill em all" attitude towards geth in the 3rd game. Mordin can similarly  sabotage the genophage cure himself for a renegade, despite the repentance and regret he shows toward the krogan for a paragon.

Also, I still don't see how you're coming the rainbows and butterflies assertion on a character who has just as many dark moments and aggressive/ callous behaviors, particuarly when the devs made specific design decisions as to intentionally reduce the character's percieved softness, such as the pre development name change from Orah, the bootknife and shotgun, frequent swearing,and drinking habits. Tali was intended to be middling on the morality and behavior scale, a bit like Garrus but in a different manner. Their complexity and inability to accurately fit into a single side of the game's morality scale on any single issue is much of the reason I consider them to be more interesting characters than simple P/R archetypes like Kaidan or Miranda, and I don't understand intellectually why so many paragon idealists tend to like them both, but really I don't understand a real person playing the game to one side of the morality system anyway, as it makes Shepard into a ridiculous caricature of either a sappy boy scout or a psychopathic misanthrope that no one should like.

 

 

With an approval system, sure, there could be exploits like the gift-spamming, but that'd be easy to avoid--just get rid of some of the gifts. In my DAO playthrough, I raised Morrigan's approval to 100 fairly quickly. Just had to pick the right dialogue options and NOT bring her along when I felt like being especially heroic. The next Mass Effect could use that sort of in-game planning. It'd add another layer to the strategy.

I don't think that is particularly better. You are essentially lying to the character and witholding information from them to achieve a desired outcome via game mechanics, and I don't like how characters are basically oblivious to your actions as long as you don't bring them along to see what you do. DA has a really bad example wherein you can maintain a relationship with Leliana even if you defile Andraste's Ashes by playing the game in a specific way. Not that I'm saying that the system is worse than ME's hero worship nonsense, but I don't think it is much better, either if they aren't going to go all the way and keeping the characters consistent.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

You're gonna get my glorious thread locked

On topic, I'm pretty sure this thread lacks a single picture of Kal Reegar, which is unacceptable.


Man walks around the ship in a hat like that, people know he's not afraid of anything

 

 

I'll be in my bunk

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I disagree. You can easily tell what their actual opinions are on any subject is by playing the game enough and picking all different squad members enough to establish a mode for their reactions. In the Council saving decision, for example, it goes from most in favour of saving to least in favor.

Liara>Kaidan>Garrus>Tali>Ashley>Wrex. For Rachni queen decision, you just switch Tali and Garrus around. Basically, any combination of two squadmates will always have the one further to the left side making the "paragon" argument, and you can deduce their relative position on the issue from what they will argue more often.

The behavioral and dialouge differences are also consistent into ME2 and ME3, even if they do away with that particular system. It goes so far as to radically change their behavior even. If you airlock Legion in ME2 for instance, Tali basically keeps the same renegade "kill em all" attitude towards geth in the 3rd game. Mordin can similarly  sabotage the genophage cure himself for a renegade, despite the repentance and regret he shows toward the krogan for a paragon.

Also, I still don't see how you're coming the rainbows and butterflies assertion on a character who has just as many dark moments and aggressive/ callous behaviors, particuarly when the devs made specific design decisions as to intentionally reduce the character's percieved softness, such as the pre development name change from Orah, the bootknife and shotgun, frequent swearing,and drinking habits. Tali was intended to be middling on the morality and behavior scale, a bit like Garrus but in a different manner. Their complexity and inability to accurately fit into a single side of the game's morality scale on any single issue is much of the reason I consider them to be more interesting characters than simple P/R archetypes like Kaidan or Miranda, and I don't understand intellectually why so many paragon idealists tend to like them both, but really I don't understand a real person playing the game to one side of the morality system anyway, as it makes Shepard into a ridiculous caricature of either a sappy boy scout or a psychopathic misanthrope that no one should like.

 

I don't think that is particularly better. You are essentially lying to the character and witholding information from them to achieve a desired outcome via game mechanics, and I don't like how characters are basically oblivious to your actions as long as you don't bring them along to see what you do. DA has a really bad example wherein you can maintain a relationship with Leliana even if you defile Andraste's Ashes by playing the game in a specific way. Not that I'm saying that the system is worse than ME's hero worship nonsense, but I don't think it is much better, either if they aren't going to go all the way and keeping the characters consistent.

 

Here's the problem with the Council decision acting as a marker for morality: Liara in ME1 is vehemently pro-Council and a goody-goody. Kaidan's a total boy scout too. Garrus is another super-pro-Council person, and Garrus with his attitudes of delivering harsh justice upon all enemies, is a lot less Paragon-leaning than Tali is.

 

Tali bends over backwards for her people. Most of Tali's anti-geth sentiment is because she is trying to protect her people. She's very defensive towards her people, but it's out of desperation. The Quarians have the potential to almost be totally wiped out in one battle. She doesn't want to lead her people off a cliff, and she doesn't agree with much of what they do, but she goes with it because she believes that putting her people before what she thinks is the right course of action. She has no regrets when the conflict is over, so long as her people are still alive.

 

Swearing and drinking mean a person's not morally upright? News to me. Liara is just a lot more brutal than Tali is. Tali might be in favor of destroying the Geth, but once you show her that conflict isn't inevitable, she's okay with peace, and actively favors it. She doesn't threaten to crush people with biotics or send commandos after them for the lulz. She doesn't lord over teams of assassins, saboteurs and spies. She fights, but what she really wants is peace and relishes that time (e.g. DRINK TIME or ROMANCE TIME). Liara, by comparison, is more drawn into personal ambitions of intrigue, espionage and some occasional wanton destruction.

 

I'd say they're both Paragons overall, but Tali just seems far less interested in the more pro-Renegade activities which Liara indulges in.

[TheN7Penguin]

I don't like Liara. In ME1, she was too good, in ME2, she was too scary, and in ME3, she was too emotional.

 

I just recently started an ME2 playthrough (when I say recently, I haven't even reached Omega yet...), and y'know. I'm actually doing one of my trial-paragon playthroughs rather than being nearly fully renegade like a pro.

[Quarian Master Race]

Here's the problem with the Council decision acting as a marker for morality: Liara in ME1 is vehemently pro-Council and a goody-goody. Kaidan's a total boy scout too. Garrus is another super-pro-Council person, and Garrus with his attitudes of delivering harsh justice upon all enemies, is a lot less Paragon-leaning than Tali is.

 

Tali bends over backwards for her people. Most of Tali's anti-geth sentiment is because she is trying to protect her people. She's very defensive towards her people, but it's out of desperation. The Quarians have the potential to almost be totally wiped out in one battle. She doesn't want to lead her people off a cliff, and she doesn't agree with much of what they do, but she goes with it because she believes that putting her people before what she thinks is the right course of action. She has no regrets when the conflict is over, so long as her people are still alive.

 

Swearing and drinking mean a person's not morally upright? News to me. Liara is just a lot more brutal than Tali is. Tali might be in favor of destroying the Geth, but once you show her that conflict isn't inevitable, she's okay with peace, and actively favors it. She doesn't threaten to crush people with biotics or send commandos after them for the lulz. She doesn't lord over teams of assassins, saboteurs and spies. She fights, but what she really wants is peace and relishes that time (e.g. DRINK TIME or ROMANCE TIME). Liara, by comparison, is more drawn into personal ambitions of intrigue, espionage and some occasional wanton destruction.

 

I'd say they're both Paragons overall, but Tali just seems far less interested in the more pro-Renegade activities which Liara indulges in.

The fact that you're debating subjective "moral upright" and conflating it with similarly subjective "rainbows and butterflies" does nothing to counter the fact that the character takes several positions that are objectively renegade according to how the game assigns value to them, nor does the whitewashing of the character's behavior to fit your notions of what the character should be. Further, your conclusions are based upon a specific outcome in a narrative with mutliple paths and eventualities for the same character. Your intial assessment based on what "makes more sense" is an opinion.

Liara has schizoid personality disorder, I'm not even going to try and make arguments about that character, but I could do exactly the same whitewashing of her behavior with supposed paragon motivations as you've done with Tali to make points contrary to yours. 

Either way, we have different interpretations of multiple characters and won't agree so it's pointless, and I'd go to the character threads if I wanted to do this crap. I'd rather get back to bashing lesser life forms.