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[Ardat-Yakshi Master Race]

I just wish that it was simply *universal tongue* that we imagine as English in game.... Therefore, if another language user uses their language in game, we hear it as that.... Like the term Ardat-Yakshi in a translator SHOULD  be translated but if it is in 'Common' it would make sense to hear ardat yakshi and not demon of the night wind

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

I got a warning point for my 2000th post and it got deleted. What a thank you for my important and constructive contributions to this forum.

Get on my level, scrub!

 

Congratulations

[Quarian Master Race]

I'm using information from the codex to support my premise by pointing out that the codex is inherently flawed. The codex gives us statements that are contradictory--favoring either side of the same coin disregards the other. That's why I'm saying it's better to disregard the codex altogether here. It's terribly unreliable even compared to what's in-game. Just another random example: Tali translates "Keelah Se'lai" to Shepard. Why would she need to do this when phrases are otherwise translated? I'm not going to pretend that no one ever literally uses translators aside from the Hanar, but given the way characters communicate with one another, it looks to me much more likely that they're speaking the same language (simple multipurpose trade language) than communicating with a translator that can pick up the tone, inflection and intention of everything people say but somehow excludes an entire species that's been on the Citadel and can't pick up idiomatic expressions.

 

As for poster with rustled jimmies, this is why arguing anywhere outside of the MP forum is so dangerous.

If you disregard the codex completely than you have no way of making a determination past that everyone is speaking English with random phrases of Khelish or Spanish sometimes thrown in. Of course, there are other small tidbits, such as if you creep Tali's spacebook page and look at the suit processes log for the installation of translator software for all human languages, but to my knowledge they point in the other direction from what you are implicating. 

Keelah se'lai is easy to find an analogy for. Plug: Тысячевосьмисотвосьмидесятидевятимикрометровй into your translator of choice. The word has a meaning that I could explain, but you probably won't be able to find it. It's meaning simply isn't expressed in the translator, but one can use other compatible terms within the same language that are able to explain it. An analogy for "Bosh'tet" is even easier to find. Russian has 400+ swear words, whereas English has less than 20. Try охуеть, which I'm willing to bet doesn't have a literal equivalent. The translator simply isn't working optimally in that instance. The translators in ME can of course be much better than our own, but they needn't be perfect, and indeed there is an allowance within the lore for them to not be in the example of the batarians taking pains to provide updates on the state of their language despite their isolation. You are trying to impose rules and expectations upon them that they simply needn't follow.

A simple multipurpose trade language would be inadequate for the types of speech we hear in game. You can't conduct a 4000 level course in Biology, Anthropology or Mechanical Engineering/Astrophysics in a trade language, but Shepard can understand literally every word that Mordin, Liara and Tali say in all instances (including Mordin's classes per the datapad). Why would a career Soldier who enlists when they're 18 be taught terms such as proline, hydroxyls, serine, theromine, methionine, histodine in a "simple multipurpose trade language"? Why would there even be any need for such terms in said language? I'm willing to bet there isn't a single English speaker on here who knows the meaning of every single one of those words without looking it up even if it is their first language. Tali can't discuss advanced engineering terms with Adams, Ken and Gabby sufficiently with a simple multipurpose trade language composed of a few thousand words at best. Either she is more fluent in English than anyone who doesn't have a Ph.D in mechanical engineering from the moment she steps on the SR1 and Adam's comments on her being a prodigy, but forgets the entire language within 2 years and has to relearn it during the 2nd game.  Or, she has access to an advanced translator.

It is the other way around. The translator is the primary means of communication in the vast majority of circumstances and the simplistic trade language is used when such means are not avaliable (as is stated), such as if they cannot be afforded or acquired in say, an isolated Terminus colony for example. Of course, your concerns about their functioning are irrlevant as are my analogies and suppositions to explain it. The translators can be black magic for all we know, and that still makes more sense than your alternative. The universal translator as a trope is of course based upon suspension of disbelief. It isn't really possible the way it is presented with our undertsanding of how language works, but that is irrelevant to the setting because that applies for most of the technology in it. Elcor talk the way they do because it's funny and quaint. The species accents exist to add atmosphere, as do random words that are untranslated. It's the same reason that we have sound in space battles in the same setting.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

If you disregard the codex completely than you have no way of making a determination past that everyone is speaking English with random phrases of Khelish or Spanish sometimes thrown in. Of course, there are other small tidbits, such as if you creep Tali's spacebook page and look at the suit processes log for the installation of translator software for all human languages, but to my knowledge they point in the other direction from what you are implicating. 

Keelah se'lai is easy to find an analogy for. Plug: Тысячевосьмисотвосьмидесятидевятимикрометровй into your translator of choice. The word has a meaning that I could explain, but you probably won't be able to find it. It's meaning simply isn't expressed in the translator, but one can use other compatible terms within the same language that are able to explain it. An analogy for "Bosh'tet" is even easier to find. Russian has 400+ swear words, whereas English has less than 20. Try охуеть, which I'm willing to bet doesn't have a literal equivalent. The translator simply isn't working optimally in that instance. The translators in ME can of course be much better than our own, but they needn't be perfect, and indeed there is an allowance within the lore for them to not be in the example of the batarians taking pains to provide updates on the state of their language despite their isolation. You are trying to impose rules and expectations upon them that they simply needn't follow.

A simple multipurpose trade language would be inadequate for the types of speech we hear in game. You can't conduct a 4000 level course in Biology, Anthropology or Mechanical Engineering/Astrophysics in a trade language, but Shepard can understand literally every word that Mordin, Liara and Tali say in all instances (including Mordin's classes per the datapad). Why would a career Soldier who enlists when they're 18 be taught terms such as proline, hydroxyls, serine, theromine, methionine, histodine in a "simple multipurpose trade language"? Why would there even be any need for such terms in said language? I'm willing to bet there isn't a single English speaker on here who knows the meaning of every single one of those words without looking it up even if it is their first language. Tali can't discuss advanced engineering terms with Adams, Ken and Gabby sufficiently with a simple multipurpose trade language composed of a few thousand words at best. Either she is more fluent in English than anyone who doesn't have a Ph.D in mechanical engineering from the moment she steps on the SR1 and Adam's comments on her being a prodigy, but forgets the entire language within 2 years and has to relearn it during the 2nd game.  Or, she has access to an advanced translator.

It is the other way around. The translator is the primary means of communication in the vast majority of circumstances and the simplistic trade language is used when such means are not avaliable (as is stated), such as if they cannot be afforded or acquired in say, an isolated Terminus colony for example. Of course, your concerns about their functioning are irrlevant as are my analogies and suppositions to explain it. The translators can be black magic for all we know, and that still makes more sense than your alternative. The universal translator as a trope is of course based upon suspension of disbelief. It isn't really possible the way it is presented with our undertsanding of how language works, but that is irrelevant to the setting because that applies for most of the technology in it. Elcor talk the way they do because it's funny and quaint. The species accents exist to add atmosphere, as do random words that are untranslated. It's the same reason that we have sound in space battles in the same setting.

 

This isn't going anywhere. You are absolutely certain with the evidence you have that translators are the dominant means of communication. I am absolutely certain that it is a streamlined language (but with technical applications, sort of like Esperanto). What have I learned? There's examples and counter examples on each side which to me, only proves one thing for certain: the lore on this, in-game and in-codex, is just plain terrible.

 

 

But to steer the conversation towards something more productive...you mention magic. That's something I wish was legitimately touched upon in Mass Effect. We hear a lot about different religions and deities and how one (that of the Asari) is more or less a sham. But we also have things that have zero scientific explanation and a protagonist with eerily supernatural capabilities. Instead of shrugging and implying "a wizard did it" when the unexplainable happens, I wouldn't have minded of they had gone and said there's a higher power at work within the story--not a machine with a child avatar, but something far grander.

[TheN7Penguin]

Although Mass Effect is hardly realistic as such, I'd rather it stay away from the whole magic thing - yeah, sure, biotics are basically the same thing - but no gods, no magic. That's Dragon Age, not Mass Effect.

 

ALL religious text, Earth or not, are just horribly inaccurate historical sources. So religions wouldn't need touching on as such if you knew the history of the species itself. The Asari provide evidence of this.

[The NightMan Cometh]

[EbonyBrotherhood]

Gotta admit, the translator makes much more sense to me than a trade language. I mean, there most likely is a trade language, but everyone probably just uses translators unless they are like a diplomat or something. Because otherwise I'm kinda afraid at how incompetent the guards in ME are, just GIVING AWAY SECRETS BY ALL TALKING IN TRADE, JUST IN CASE SOMEONE IS LISTENING IN. How about no.

Also I refuse to believe, in a setting like ME, where everyone is a super-racist, that all races just go 'yeah OK I just won't talk in my native tongue anymore'. 

Granted there are a lot of discrepancies with the translator theory, but a lot of those are just for cool factor (James doing spanglish, Tali going Bosh'tet and stuff) or just because they forgot, which happens more often than you would realize. 

[Quarian Master Race]

This isn't going anywhere. You are absolutely certain with the evidence you have that translators are the dominant means of communication. I am absolutely certain that it is a streamlined language (but with technical applications, sort of like Esperanto). What have I learned? There's examples and counter examples on each side which to me, only proves one thing for certain: the lore on this, in-game and in-codex, is just plain terrible.

 

 

But to steer the conversation towards something more productive...you mention magic. That's something I wish was legitimately touched upon in Mass Effect. We hear a lot about different religions and deities and how one (that of the Asari) is more or less a sham. But we also have things that have zero scientific explanation and a protagonist with eerily supernatural capabilities. Instead of shrugging and implying "a wizard did it" when the unexplainable happens, I wouldn't have minded of they had gone and said there's a higher power at work within the story--not a machine with a child avatar, but something far grander.

agreed.

Eh, I'm usually against of including supernatural forces in a setting that is supposed to be part of our timeline (whether past or potential future). In an overtly fantasy setting with different rules (say DA, TES, Star Wars or LOTR), I've no problem with it or deities/ godlike beings, but if I'm honest I don't even really like the concept of biotics/telekinesis in the ME universe, even if they have a psuedoscientific explanation. Probably part of the reasons my favourite races are the technologically advanced and martial ones, and I find the asari for example to not be very compelling. I also pretty much don't play classes with biotics in SP or MP since I got all their trophies.

Thessia's a fun mission because clicking on the artifacts in the temple and having Javik or Tali act like dicks about asari religion being a farce is funneh, but that's probably because of my similar beliefs about real world religions based on supreme deities.

I've no problem worshiping my ancestors, though, and I see no conflict of logic with anything written above.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Although Mass Effect is hardly realistic as such, I'd rather it stay away from the whole magic thing - yeah, sure, biotics are basically the same thing - but no gods, no magic. That's Dragon Age, not Mass Effect.

 

ALL religious text, Earth or not, are just horribly inaccurate historical sources. So religions wouldn't need touching on as such if you knew the history of the species itself. The Asari provide evidence of this.

As a historian, here's a question that I've had to pose to others and even to myself:

 

How do you know?

 

Unless the archaeological and historical records can genuinely, indisputably contradict what is said by any religious text, this assessment is just plain wrong. Leave religious beliefs (or lack thereof) at the door with this one. There is precious little that we can conclusively evaluate as accurate or inaccurate because most of it is unverifiable with our current understandings of the past. This applies both to real-life and in-game, here.

 

We can assume that certain things are right or wrong, but without ample evidence, declaring writings accurate or inaccurate isn't really possible. That's where the Asari really stand out. Their religion is decisively exposed as a primitive fabrication that came about when the Asari worshiped Protheans and Prothean ideas. Unlike other religions, real or fictional, with the Asari, we know what happened. Not so with any of the real-life Human faiths represented within, or the Salarian religion which Mordin mentioned, or Turian Animism, Quarian Ancestor-Worship, Krogan religion, or the Batarian soul-religion.

 

What an interesting reveal it would be if the Leviathans turned out to be glorified Archdemons who were subtly cursed by a higher power for trying to act as living gods. And for all we know, that's entirely possible.

[TheN7Penguin]

*is a historian also - a medieval one*

 

Take the Bible, for example. That is no different from if a Pope had issued a papal bull. Everything is written for a reason, and everything is written from a certain perspective. Take the account of Jesus' crucifixion, for example. It blamed it on the Jews. Nope. Incorrect. It was the Romans, and they blamed the Jews to avoid persecution. You need to think realistically. You need to make allowances for people bigging themselves and events up to make them see more grand. Hence why I said horribly inaccurate. You need to find other accounts and essentially find another way of interpreting it, and taking an average. As a medieval history student, I have done a lot of source interpretation - including religious texts, which are full of misrepresentation and propaganda. You have to take them all with a pinch of salt.

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

*is a historian also - a medieval one*

 

Take the Bible, for example. That is no different from if a Pope had issued a papal bull. Everything is written for a reason, and everything is written from a certain perspective. Take the account of Jesus' crucifixion, for example. It blamed it on the Jews. Nope. Incorrect. It was the Romans, and they blamed the Jews to avoid persecution. You need to think realistically. You need to make allowances for people bigging themselves and events up to make them see more grand. Hence why I said horribly inaccurate. You need to find other accounts and essentially find another way of interpreting it, and taking an average. As a medieval history student, I have done a lot of source interpretation - including religious texts, which are full of misrepresentation and propaganda. You have to take them all with a pinch of salt.

This is why Lyotard said that we should remain incredulous of metanarratives.

 

He meant intellectual incredulity of course, but I find "meh" works quite well too.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

*is a historian also - a medieval one*

 

Take the Bible, for example. That is no different from if a Pope had issued a papal bull. Everything is written for a reason, and everything is written from a certain perspective. Take the account of Jesus' crucifixion, for example. It blamed it on the Jews. Nope. Incorrect. It was the Romans, and they blamed the Jews to avoid persecution. You need to think realistically. You need to make allowances for people bigging themselves and events up to make them see more grand. Hence why I said horribly inaccurate. You need to find other accounts and essentially find another way of interpreting it, and taking an average. As a medieval history student, I have done a lot of source interpretation - including religious texts, which are full of misrepresentation and propaganda. You have to take them all with a pinch of salt.

 

Medieval, eh? That's my favorite time period. I mostly studied Antiquity in school, but all topics of Medieval Europe, Asia and Africa (even Pre-Columbian America) are just amazing.

 

Anyway, I see what you're saying but that's not good example. The Biblical accounts point to both Romans and Jews, e.g. Pilate could try to act innocent all he wanted, but he was still a responsible party for the Crucifixion. People on both sides were responsible. That and the Romans were the Jews' overlords at the time. Collaboration between the two parties is implicit by nature of the political structure.

 

I can write in a diary "I went to the store and bought some bread and eggs and they were good" after doing so in real-life. I'm not necessarily pushing any kind of agenda with that statement and assuming as such would be purely speculative. It's why in historical research, court and probate records, sales receipts and inventories are considered to be so enormously valuable sources of information. There's very little to do with them but to take them at face value, and that offers a good anchor for further research. Of course these examples are hardly the same thing as a religious document, but even a religious document should not be dismissed for inaccuracy due to alleged slants, or even if there are things that do not seem to be true. Unless we know for sure (and with history, we truly know next to nothing), that's our own personal bias coming out, and bias + bias does not equal accuracy.

 

Taking an average in history is...an interesting choice. In my experience it doesn't work. I've done some original work and tried to apply Occam's Razor to hypotheses within the research, and the simplest explanation was very often not the correct one. You really don't know until you dig deeper with these kinds of things. You can take guesses, but only more research will give you answers, and they generally aren't very satisfying ones because they open up new questions.

 

In any case, we can't dismiss any given statement in a religious text because others may be wrong, or because the work is biased. And in Mass Effect lore, this is particularly true. No religion besides that of the Asari (and I guess the Hanar, but that's a very different kind of religion) ever really gets shot down by the writers. Any other faith could very well be at the center of the story. We don't know. And because we don't know in the case of Mass Effect, the best we can do is speculate. Which was more or less Bioware's MO with all of ME3, so I think it's all good.

[DaemionMoadrin]

There is so much about history which we "knew" because we learned it in school or because it is the dominating narrative for movies that turned out to be false.

 

Not slaves built the pyramides in Egypt but paid labourers.

Medieval peasants weren't grubby, dirty people - communal bathing houses were used daily until the plague.

Roman gladiators weren't slaves sent into the arena to be slaughtered, they were well paid pro-athletes with advertisment contracts. Some were nobility and some were female.

Almost no one believed the Earth to be flat, that ended in ancient Greece already.

Marie Antoinette never said "Let them eat cake." which is a quote from Rousseau's autobiography which he wrote when she was 9 and still in Austria.

 

And so on and on. I find it very fascinating that the periods of time we know the most of aren't necessarily the most exciting or most influential ones but the ones where good book keeping was practiced. ^^

[Salarian Master Race]

[TheN7Penguin]

Medieval history is beautiful.

 

What I was basically saying about the averages, was that... Alright, think of an army. Let's say, French vs English. And let's say the French won.

The English account would probably say that there were like 100,000 men and they were overwhelmed, to make themselves seem less incompetent.

The French account would probably state that there were 10,000 men AGAINST 100,000 to make their victory seem better.

So as such, you could probably estimate that the actual number of French soldiers was 50,000.

 

Exaggerations do happen, in particular with religious documents. When there is someone who they dislike, they make them out to be seriously bad, regardless of the truth - for example with King John I. And I mean, yes, he was a terrible king - but they were almost certainly exaggeration the extent of Isabella of Angouleme's (John's wife) immaturity. They portray her as about eight, when in actual fact it is more likely she was about fourteen, in an attempt to make John out to be a paedophile, whereas fourteen was acceptable for a person to get married at in the medieval period. So you have to take their bias into account. The example I used was just when they disliked someone, but at the start of Christianity, they actually had a distinct point to argue about themselves being a religion and would have been looking to convince people - therefore lots of exaggerations will be in there. Religious documents, about religious matters... Yes, they are useful, but as I said, you need to take them with a pinch of salt.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Medieval history is beautiful.

 

What I was basically saying about the averages, was that... Alright, think of an army. Let's say, French vs English. And let's say the French won.

The English account would probably say that there were like 100,000 men and they were overwhelmed, to make themselves seem less incompetent.

The French account would probably state that there were 10,000 men AGAINST 100,000 to make their victory seem better.

So as such, you could probably estimate that the actual number of French soldiers was 50,000.

 

Exaggerations do happen, in particular with religious documents. When there is someone who they dislike, they make them out to be seriously bad, regardless of the truth - for example with King John I. And I mean, yes, he was a terrible king - but they were almost certainly exaggeration the extent of Isabella of Angouleme's (John's wife) immaturity. They portray her as about eight, when in actual fact it is more likely she was about fourteen, in an attempt to make John out to be a paedophile, whereas fourteen was acceptable for a person to get married at in the medieval period. So you have to take their bias into account. The example I used was just when they disliked someone, but at the start of Christianity, they actually had a distinct point to argue about themselves being a religion and would have been looking to convince people - therefore lots of exaggerations will be in there. Religious documents, about religious matters... Yes, they are useful, but as I said, you need to take them with a pinch of salt.

 

With numbers, I wouldn't average. I'd look at the context of the battle. Who was defending, and who was attacking? What was the weather like? What kinds of forces are at play? Anything about the casualties? Do we know anything about contemporary military doctrine and tactics? I mean, if you don't know anything else, then averaging works fine as a rule of thumb, but if you can get around it (and usually, you can) then there's good routes you can take to find better figures.

 

It is good practice to be cautious with the sources you're looking at because there can be a lot at work, but going back to what I said, especially in regards to the alien religions, we have far less context to go on. We don't have to accept everything that they say at face-value, but just because some things are wrong, we don't need to say that all of these things are "horribly inaccurate" especially since we don't have much about the underlying religious information about most races. That's why I wouldn't use such generalizations about these things.

 

My TL/DR here is that I'm arguing with the semantics here. I don't think any contemporary historical account, no matter what biases and no matter what we suppose is incorrect should be dismissed as "Inaccurate" when there's still a bevy of subjects within that haven't been discredited. And for these alien works where nothing is discredited in-game, there's no reason to dismiss those either. Which opens the door for SPECULATIONS~!

 

...or at least it would if Bioware went the whole nine yards and admitted that Mass Effect is fantasy.

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

With numbers, I wouldn't average. I'd look at the context of the battle. 

H-dong thread.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

H-dong thread.

 

HeeStree Bastard Race?

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

"H" for History/Historian.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

"H" for History/Historian.

 

Which is exactly why I responded with "HeeStree."

[TheN7Penguin]

Oh, absolutely. You would definitely have to look at other pieces of evidence to be more accurate. Which is kind of what I'm saying - the Asari have their religion which is an account of a goddess, and they believe it to be a goddess. It is actually the Protheans (another account) which provides more reliable evidence than their religious one does. Which is what I'm saying about having to take them with a pinch of salt, because what they say may not be actually the truth.

 

I'm not dismissing them as such, just saying that they tend to be inaccurate and there are better sources to use as primary ones.

[The NightMan Cometh]

For all the Anti-Quarian folks

 

 

also, in my last play through I decided to end the Quarians..I figured they had 1 foot out the door anyway..I mean come on bro...200 years in a space flotilla and you cant find 1 habitable planet ?   plus Flash bulb heads kicked you out your own home.  Do you know who could have easily destroyed the Geth once they became sentient?

 

[TheN7Penguin]

There are various factors which would impact how they would choose a planet, not just whether they could survive on it or not. They were trying to find their own planet, and that's what matters.

And for the record - comparing other races from other things is a rather bad way to argue. As my friend keeps telling me, nearly every race on Mass Effect would be defeated by the Asgards(?) from Star Gate. That does not mean that they deserve to die.

[frank_is_crank]

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