246 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteYoda]

yet MMO's derived that idea and design from games LIKE Baludrs Gate and Ultima in the past. Single player RPG's that had many side quest that fell into the vein  of "recover X item or X amount of ingredients" for people. 

 

That is not something beholden to a specific genre, it's part of RPG's as whole. It is disingenuous to say that it's a MMO mechanic when its a RPG mechanic. 

Older games yes, i'd hoped we'd moved on to better story writing etc,

 

MMORPG's have a lot more grind and filler to keep people in game longer and as slow as possible so they spend money in them.. Sadly Inquisition has the same type of mechanics, far closer imo to say WoW or other themepark mmo's than say Baldurs Gate.

[Al Foley]

That was one of the main things I missed in DA:I there is almost no human element outside your inner circle.

Different strokes I suppose but I certainly felt...well not sure what the human element is so I will go with an emotional connection to several events and several NPCs throughout the world.  Though maybe in this case DA I is equal to Origins for me considering I can remember a similar amount of instances in both game's side quests.  lol.  

[Hazegurl]

This whole back and forth has become very convoluted and confused >.< my relevance problem with the DA:I fetch quests and other boring tasks (requisitions, tents, closing rifts, etc...) is that the game doesn't even try to give you a reason for forcing you to do them. Seriously, why do I have to pitch tents and skin bears before the revered mother will talk to me? Why do I have to collect herbs for the Dalish, follow notes on the ground to some generic enemies, etc...before I can go to the winter palace or storm adamant fortres, etc...it doesn't make any sense and the game shouldn't have had this mechanic. Power doesn't change your ending or have a tangible impact on the world, it just needlessly gates the main plot. You aren't forced to do a single side quest in DA:O so if you don't want to find Bevin or help Camen and Gheyna you can just ignore them and are not forced to do something equivalent. Imagine if you were forced to do all the mages collective quests, find the 10 garnets, do all the quests for the Denerim guard captain, clear out the haunted orphanage and deal with Ser Landry before Arl Eamon would talk to you in his estate in Denerim. Like his door is just locked and when you've done enough tasks it opens. No reason given.

 

I also never claimed you have to do every fetch quest or task, however since I find them all mind numbingly boring doing enough of them to earn 124 power is a chore for me. If you like doing those things then obviously it wont feel that way to you. I don't understand why you're defending the power requirements system. It adds nothing and for many people like me it made the game a chore instead of just short and disappointing.  

 

I really really like side quests with role playing options/lots of dialogue choices/difficult puzzles/multiple ways to resolve and wish there had been side quests like that in DA:I but I would never suggest that the game force players to do them in order to move forward. While I wouldn't personally see doing a ton of quests I consider fun a chore, I know many people don't like the same things that I like.

 

Y u so angry at me?

 

At least DAO acknowledges that their side quests and fetch quests are irrelevant by making them 100% optional and ungated to the main story's plot. 

 

Don't want to mark a bunch of stupid doors? Ignore that crap and keep moving on to more important matters. The game doesn't pretend that running errands for some mages matters to anything other than putting some extra money in your pockets.

 

 

That was one of the main things I missed in DA:I there is almost no human element outside your inner circle.

I really miss those random NPC encounters. DAO felt far more alive than DAI. Random wizard guy in the woods, a talking tree, Ruckus, Random graves, and haunted camps you and your companions respond to. The only excuse I have for DAI lack of life is that perhaps it's a reflection of what Morrigan, Flemeth, et al were alluding to. That Magic and ancient lore is waning in exchange for the mundane. *shrug*

[Melca36]

 

Y u so angry at me?

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

[Boogielicious]

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

 

Why is it any different than critiquing a movie/tv show/book?  It isn't.  You have an interest in it, so then you purchase it and have the experience, and then you talk about it, good and bad, and how it could have been better.  It's what people do.  My spouse and I do it every Sunday night with WD.  Sometimes we disagree, but we still enjoy discussing it.

 

To suggest that everyone who has complaints about the game are miserable and angry at anyone who enjoyed it, is ludicrous at best.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, good for you (and no, that isn't sarcasm.)  I'd enjoy it more if the controls were more forgiving of my arthritis & carpal tunnel.  Oh well.

 

Opinions, everyone has them.  Not worth raging over though.

[Eelectrica]

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

Their were many things I enjoyed about the game, and a lot of things I think could do with some improvement, and would like to see improved in upcoming DLC and the next game. Telling them everything's wonderful and perfect isn't going to achieve that.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

 

At least DAO acknowledges that their side quests and fetch quests are irrelevant by making them 100% optional and ungated to the main story's plot. 

 

 

Well it's a good thing that the gating in DAI is fully integrated into the main plot and makes complete logical sense.

 

Is it so hard to understand that you need power and influence (the real meaning and not the figurative resource) in order to approach people of authority?

How do you think the Wardens were capable of approaching the leaders of the respective factions? They had the authority of the treaties.

 

There is no magical treaty in DAI to make people listen to your words. You actually have to prove yourself first.

 

The gating itself is hardly difficult to overcome. You only need to complete two or three zones to be able to unlock everything, assuming you do the companion quests, the occasional war table quest, plunder the occasional tomb, and slay the occasional dragon. Even the main quests have refunds on power.

 

You can do only the Southern portion of the Hinterlands map in order to unlock all the main quests til Skyhold. THAT's how little power you need.

 

At this point you're complaining that you're playing the game itself. Expecting anyone to believe that you heavily dislike doing anything but the main quest in DAI that you can't even do a couple of missions on the side is an insult to any DA fan's intelligence. This is probably the dumbest argument in this thread.

 

 

 

I really miss those random NPC encounters. DAO felt far more alive than DAI. Random wizard guy in the woods, a talking tree, Ruckus, Random graves, and haunted camps you and your companions respond to. The only excuse I have for DAI lack of life is that perhaps it's a reflection of what Morrigan, Flemeth, et al were alluding to. That Magic and ancient lore is waning in exchange for the mundane. *shrug*

 

Random? The wizard and the talking tree are main quest NPCs and not random NPCs. Ruck is a side character that is hardly any more prominent than Michel or Sutherland even. Random graves? There's an entire graveyard in the Exalted Plains. No not just the elven graves, the actual dead people scattered in the zone. 

 

This "lack of life" excuse that you are so eager to toss around is merely a reflection of your incapability of imagining a character operating in an open world.

 

By all means, keep on asking to be railroaded into talking to people in order to experience the world through their eyes rather than your own.

 

Why is it any different than critiquing a movie/tv show/book?  It isn't.  You have an interest in it, so then you purchase it and have the experience, and then you talk about it, good and bad, and how it could have been better.  It's what people do.  My spouse and I do it every Sunday night with WD.  Sometimes we disagree, but we still enjoy discussing it.

 

To suggest that everyone who has complaints about the game are miserable and angry at anyone who enjoyed it, is ludicrous at best.  I'm glad you enjoyed it, good for you (and no, that isn't sarcasm.)  I'd enjoy it more if the controls were more forgiving of my arthritis & carpal tunnel.  Oh well.

 

Opinions, everyone has them.  Not worth raging over though.

 

Opinions can be stupid.

 

Stupid makes me angry.

 

When you critique a play you often give reasons for why you dislike the play as opposed to citing comparisons to others as a sort of reference. A lot of people here don't even argue points about DAI itself and merely use the "it's not like DAO" argument which in itself is completely idiotic given that they are games that approach things differently. It's not DAO. It never will be. They may be part of the same series, but they have wildly different structures. People need to get over it.
Even so there's also the part that the game is an ACTIVE form of entertainment which includes the audience as opposed to a PASSIVE form like reading or watching. This creates all sorts of biases that need to be addressed. 

 

The funny part is that I love both games. I'm just not blind to their faults. 

And yes I do believe DAI has faults, but not to the degree that's exaggerated by many posters here.

 

But you're right. If people wanna be mired in their own delusion then that's their choice.

 

This is a forum though, where we come to discuss these opinions. That I am rather vitriolic in my approach to illogical arguments is my prerogative and if people feel offended by having their opinions questioned then they are free to start their own blogs to comment without reproach.

[Lebanese Dude]

*snip*

 

Sorry. We agreed to disagree a while ago and I should not have made that post directed at you specifically. I just had a meltdown from talking to someone else.

[Boogielicious]

Opinions can be stupid.

 

Stupid makes me angry.

 

You must be angry a lot

 

 

When you critique a play you often give reasons for why you dislike the play as opposed to citing comparisons to others as a sort of reference. A lot of people here don't even argue points about DAI itself and merely use the "it's not like DAO" argument which in itself is completely idiotic given that they are games that approach things differently. It's not DAO. It never will be. They may be part of the same series, but they have wildly different structures.

 

Perhaps you don't cite comparisons, but I think it's pretty normal.  People compare books in a series, movies in a series, etc., as well as comparisons between the tv show/movie and it's source material (GoT & TWD as examples.)  Right now there's controversy over the Alien franchise and whether the third & fourth installments will be cannon or blown off since many fans are of the opinion they sucked compared to the first two, and their wildly different structures would be a part of that opinion.  Yes, I think 3 & 4 sucked, while the first two were phenomenal.

 

Incidentally (catching your edit) I wouldn't necessarily agree that watching is passive entertainment.  I spend a good deal of time ranting and screaming at my tv, sobbing and grabbing my spouse while watching TWD, damn near every episode.  It is anything but passive.

 

This is a forum though, where we come to discuss these opinions. That I am rather vitriolic in my approach to illogical arguments is my prerogative and if people feel offended by having their opinions questioned then they are free to start their own blogs to comment without reproach.

 

I never stated otherwise, especially as I was responding to someone accusing others of being miserable and angry. 

[Lebanese Dude]

 

 

Perhaps you don't cite comparisons, but I think it's pretty normal.  People compare books in a series, movies in a series, etc., as well as comparisons between the tv show/movie and it's source material (GoT & TWD as examples.)  Right now there's controversy over the Alien franchise and whether the third & fourth installments will be cannon or blown off since many fans are of the opinion they sucked compared to the first two, and their wildly different structures would be a part of that opinion.  Yes, I think 3 & 4 sucked, while the first two were phenomenal.

 

I never claimed that comparisons are completely wrong. 

 

The issue is that the comparisons are very often the ONLY argument people utilize here, very often mired in hyperbole and exaggeration.

 

An example of an okay comparison is that it's very fair to state that you preferred DAO's dialogue options to DAI's dialogue wheel because you like being able to know exactly what comes out of your character's mouth. It's completely unfair to say that DAI's system is completely irredeemable and has nothing of value as opposed to the godlike incarnation of DAO (which has its own fair share of problems).

 

Also there's still a significant difference between active and passive media in how they keep the user interested. A simple example is that books need significantly better plots to keep the reader interested because there is nothing BUT words.

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree that watching is passive entertainment.  I spend a good deal of time ranting and screaming at my tv, sobbing and grabbing my spouse while watching TWD, damn near every episode.  It is anything but passive.

 

 

Oh I think we have different definitions of active/passive.

 

By active I mean that games are driven by player input. 

[Nefla]

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

I'm not the one throwing personal insults around and saying other people's opinions are wrong. I have only ever said what I find disappointing or annoying with DA:I. I've got no problem with people liking the game, I know many people do however I'm still going to voice my opinions on the game. I have no idea why you seem to be so angry and insulting with anyone who dislikes it.

[Miss Quisitor]

It is fun to do errands in video games....you can sit in your chair and do them  

 

Plus it is a good way of opening up the map. See that note? It says you just completed a milestone. Congratulations.  

[rashie]

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

The game isn't perfect by any stretch. Giving criticism doesn't translate into hating the thing. If anything its usually those that raise the game to the heavens that are the first to lash out against people that disagree with them.

 

I also have no idea why you seem to think someone not liking the same thing you do is a personal attack against your tastes.

[Nefla]

It is fun to do errands in video games....you can sit in your chair and do them  

 

Plus it is a good way of opening up the map. See that note? It says you just completed a milestone. Congratulations.  

But fetch quests in real life are so much more fun! "Aquire new shoes" means I get to have some stylish boots and look around at everything else for sale as well.

[Lilithor]

People don't seem to realize that most, if not all, RPGs have you running errands for people, be it
Balder's Gate or Skyrim.

Let me tell you exactly what you and everybody who says this are really saying:
- Hey, this room is filled is poison, don't breathe!
- Why wouldn't I breathe?
- BECAUSE IT IS FILLED WITH POISONOUS GAS!
- People don't seem to realize that most, if not all, people breathe be it underwater or on the surface of mars.
- But if you breathe poisonous gas you will certainly die, now if you hold your breathe you can try to find a way out or something to minimize the poisonous gas damage.

And that's it. Everybody breathes but the quality of the air you breathe makes all the difference. Hope it is clear now. You just need to hold your breathe until you leave Inquisition or learn how to minimize the damage it does.

[Lebanese Dude]

Let me tell you exactly what you and everybody who says this are really saying:
- Hey, this room is filled is poison, don't breathe!
- Why wouldn't I breathe?
- BECAUSE IT IS FILLED WITH POISONOUS GAS!
- People don't seem to realize that most, if not all, people breathe be it underwater or on the surface of mars.
- But if you breathe poisonous gas you will certainly die, now if you hold your breathe you can try to find a way out or something to minimize the poisonous gas damage.

And that's it. Everybody breathes but the quality of the air you breathe makes all the difference. Hope it is clear now. You just need to hold your breathe until you leave Inquisition or learn how to minimize the damage it does.

 

Puff Puff Pass.

[Hazegurl]

@ Dude,

I was already given tasks to do in the main story that opened up a path to the next portion of the main story. So there is no need to do busywork to progress.

 

Game objectives:

 

Meet Giselle- Giselle suggests meeting with the Chantry in VR

 

End result: The chantry doesn't care about the busy work you did in the Hinterlands anyway.

 

Objectives: Meet the Templars or Mages- gather noble influence to meet Templars.

 

First of all, Why do I need power points to pick the mages? Alexius obviously wants to meet with me for his plan to take place so why would I need to build power for this meeting?

 

As for the Templars, why couldn't I have just done some of the war table missions involving nobles to unlock Abernache? Does Abernache look like the type who cares if I picked up some piece of garbage on the road and followed it's instructions? Mind you, when I say do war table missions, I mean make those war table missions actual quests not just pick ABC and wait for a timer to run out.

 

Picked Mages or Templars and closed breach- Haven attacked. Good thing they understand that it shouldn't cost me power points.

 

Cory attacks Haven and reveals to the world that he is a threat, There is red lyruim growing everywhere, and we have Mages or Templars (both actually) running around slaughtering people, as we are told, we get Skyhold, Meet Hawke, and told to meet him secretly in Crestwood.

 

Yet I have to use power points to unlock Crestwood....really? For a secret meeting with Hawke and a GW no one knows is there?

 

Now I'm told I need to confront the GWs who are doing something evilz in the Western Approach.  Yet I need power to unlock a desert wasteland? To stop a bunch of Wardens who are endangering the world? Really?

 

Then the bad guy has run off with a possible demon army, the Inquisition has siege weapons and soldiers already, yet...we cannot possibly go after this guy and stop him from raising a demon army because......?

 

So we stopped the demon army and saved the day...for the moment...yet, the Inquisitor can't set up a simple camp with two people in an area unless he....performs some fetch quests?   I get a letter from a guy who says he has information but I can't just go in with a spy team to see him? I need to set up camps and take over the area? Assuming I give two craps about his information to waste time doing it.

 

Tell me, why do I need power to unlock the Winter Palace when I was already given an invitation?

 

Oh my goodness, you cannot possibly argue that this isn't anything other than pointless gating that has no relevance to the progression of the story.  The only one I can see where the influence and power cost matter is meeting the Templars. Which is why I argue that we should have been given actual quests from the war table to do.

 

 

How do you think the Wardens were capable of approaching the leaders of the respective factions? They had the authority of the treaties.

 

We also had treaties! Fake ones, but they (nobles) believed they were real which meant that we could have bypassed all the busywork from nearly the start of the freaking game once we had Blackwall.

 

The gating itself is hardly difficult to overcome. You only need to complete two or three zones to be able to unlock everything, assuming you do the companion quests, the occasional war table quest, plunder the occasional tomb, and slay the occasional dragon. Even the main quests have refunds on power.

 

The difficulty is not the issue, it's the fact that it's irrelevance pretending to be relevant. 

 

At this point you're complaining that you're playing the game itself. Expecting anyone to believe that you heavily dislike doing anything but the main quest in DAI that you can't even do a couple of missions on the side is an insult to any DA fan's intelligence. This is probably the dumbest argument in this thread.

 

 I'm criticizing the game mechanics and story. Which is what you do with any game you play that you have an issue with...ya know...criticize the presented content.  Yes, I am insulting your intelligence as a fan by not liking the side content presented to me and expressing why I don't like it. You know, me not liking a portion of this game has nothing at all to do with you. Please get over yourself.

 

Random? The wizard and the talking tree are main quest NPCs and not random NPCs. Ruck is a side character that is hardly any more prominent than Michel or Sutherland even. Random graves? There's an entire graveyard in the Exalted Plains. No not just the elven graves, the actual dead people scattered in the zone.

 

I'm referring to how these NPCs stand out and enrich the overall world. They had interesting content. As for the tree and the Wizard, they do gate the entrance to the rest of the forest, but you do have an option in how you handle them both.  Yes DAI has graves in a graveyard and undead enemies et al. But none of it was interesting. I liked the campfire encounter in DAO. But I don't expect them to redo that in DAI. Aside from Abernache, the Avvar Chief, and Barris, I didn't find many of the side characters interesting.

 

This "lack of life" excuse that you are so eager to toss around is merely a reflection of your incapability of imagining a character operating in an open world.

 

Oh yes, the "You can't role play" excuse.  I would have a drinking game to how many times you and others would use that as an argument, but I'd probably die of alcohol poisoning.

 

I'm fully capable of head canoning my character. As a matter of fact my head canon is completely different than what the game itself gave me.  But I recognize that it is nothing but head canon.  If I'm given vanilla ice cream, I can imagine sprinkles on it, but that doesn't mean sprinkles are actually on it.

 

[LinksOcarina]

Older games yes, i'd hoped we'd moved on to better story writing etc,

 

MMORPG's have a lot more grind and filler to keep people in game longer and as slow as possible so they spend money in them.. Sadly Inquisition has the same type of mechanics, far closer imo to say WoW or other themepark mmo's than say Baldurs Gate.

 

I disagree, I see no difference in the end between them all.

 

Also need to keep in mind most people playing MMO's are doing so for more than just "grinding" and making people money, that is very cynical to say. Also got to keep in mind the bartle school of philosophy regarding character theory. And again, MMO's have emulated those mechanics from their predecessors, so it's just a buildup of mechanical traits that are always used and reused. 

 

If anything Inquisition is more broad than previous Dragon Age games, although Dragon Age II and Origins were very specialized compared to Inquisition. 

[Nefla]

I wish BioWare had looked at Fallout New Vegas rather than Skyrim (well, Skyrim's lowest tier quests) for inspiration on how to make side quests and npcs in an open world.

[MrMrPendragon]

I like side quests if there's a clear purpose on why I'm doing them - that they make the pay off clear. I'm not talking about payoff as in loot. I'm talking about payoff as in it adds to the narrative.

 

Like in ME2 and ME3. I had to do all the scanning and mineral hunting to survive the Collector base, and buy gear buy earning money through question so they don't kill me when I get there. Or in ME3 where I had to do all the hunting for every scrap of War Asset to help against the struggle in the Reaper War. Or do all those N7 missions so I could get paid and acquire some additional War Assets.

 

It helps to know that the quest isn't just some isolated event that the hero encounters. It needs to add to the overall plot and theme of the game.

[DanteYoda]

Because it seems like you are part of that group that want everyone else to be miserable with you and deep down it angers you that some people actually enjoy the game

I think that's unfair, many of us still enjoyed the game on some levels, we just found the negatives over shadowed the positives.. Nefia has some great points whether you agree with them or not.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed this game and i'm happy you got your monies worth, Nefia as far as i can see never wanted anyone miserable or upset, they are just voicing feedback like the rest of us..I feel if any of us hated the game as much as you say we'd be long gone..

 

If Bioware would address some of the more serious issues i bet there would be far less animosity in this forum.

 

 

I disagree, I see no difference in the end between them all.

 

Also need to keep in mind most people playing MMO's are doing so for more than just "grinding" and making people money, that is very cynical to say. Also got to keep in mind the bartle school of philosophy regarding character theory. And again, MMO's have emulated those mechanics from their predecessors, so it's just a buildup of mechanical traits that are always used and reused. 

 

If anything Inquisition is more broad than previous Dragon Age games, although Dragon Age II and Origins were very specialized compared to Inquisition. 

I agree with what you are saying, but for me personally this game felt far more like a single player version of a themepark mmo to me than any other games i've played bar one Kingdoms of Amalur.

 

They both share similarities to me and have mmo like features far more than most other RPG games i've played.

 

I do agree mmo's and RPGs share a common bond of features, but Inquisition feels like it sits more in the themepark mmo side than RPG side most of the game.

[Melca36]

I think the reason why people prefer the DAO fetch quests over DAI has to do with the large open world maps and how noticeably tedious DAI can be.

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