246 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

It's not how difficult it is. That doesn't enter into it. It could be as easy as walking across the map. It's how fun it is. In DA: O every single mission I had fun in doing. There was no grind to me. Every part of the game was the fun part. I didn't like "Well I have to complete this to do this. That's the key thing I'm trying to penetrate into peoples minds. Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

 

In DA: O. I did Shale's personal quest. I had fun with it. I learned more about his past. It was informative as well as it was interesting.  

Did you ever consider that this is a result of it being your first foray into the Dragon Age universe and everything being fresh and therefore exciting?

 

Leaving the honeymoon stage sucks, but between learning more about spirits, ancient elves, Orlesian culture, Warden history, Chantry structure and history, etc... claiming that the lore developments via story and quests in DAI are bad is just silly and willfully ignorant

 

Also claiming that you found the equivalent Collective/Chantry Board/Irregulars quests in DAO to be "much more entertaining" than those in DAI is downright laughable, especially since the DAI quests at least have you exploring beautifully crafted areas instead of wading through brown-filtered miniscule zones.

 

Nostalgic bias is a hell of a drug.

Modifié par Lebanese Dude, 19 mars 2015 - 11:44 .

[The Jackal]

Did you ever consider that this is a result of it being your first foray into the Dragon Age universe and everything being fresh and therefore exciting?

 

Leaving the honeymoon stage sucks, but between learning more about spirits, ancient elves, Orlesian culture, Warden history, Chantry structure and history, etc... claiming that the lore developments via story and quests in DAI are bad is just silly and willfully ignorant.

 

I never said they are bad. At all. If you claim I'm saying that. When I said in the past. I actually enjoy some of the quests. Then you are being willfully ignorant. I'm not sure where you got that I said all that.  There's no Consequence to not doing many of these quests. Even you said on page Six. That aspect is undeniable. In your own words.

[Lebanese Dude]

I never said they are bad. At all. If you claim I'm saying that. When I said in the past. I actually enjoy some of the quests. Then you are being willfully ignorant. I'm not sure where you got that I said all that. 

 

I've paid attention to the thread and your posts have that implication. No need to be coy.

 

You're stating that you found all of the DAO quests to be entertaining as opposed to a grind in DAI.

[The Jackal]

I've paid attention to the thread and your posts have that implication. No need to be coy.

 

You're stating that you found all of the DAO quests to be entertaining as opposed to a grind in DAI.

 

This is a post. You made. You said that its undeniable there's no Consequence. You can't simply take words that I never said. Then claim I said then and I'm being willfully ignorant. While at the same time you agreeing with my point in an earlier post. 

 

http://tinypic.com/v...=8#.VQq6J_nF9KV

 

I did say killing generic monsters over and over. Setting up camps on different world. Collecting items for people. It feels like a grind. I said that it feels like almost work to get to the fun part. I also said that is my own opinion. If you find it different then that's fine. That's your own opinion. From the time you enter the game. You are doing quest for other people without a compelling feeling to do those quests. It's like your turning it in just because you have to do it. Not that you want to do it to advance the story.

 

In DA: O again. In my own opinion. In case anyone might get confused. It didn't feel like a grind to go to different factions. There was enough interaction in meeting the different people. Making several choices along the way. For example in the Elf Camp you have several NPC's to interact with. There's much more interaction in speaking with them even before you set out to do your quest. There's that guy in the camp who wants to be a hunter to win over the heart of that woman. You can either A: get the items for him to impress her so he can become a hunter. B: Talk to her using your skill convince her to bed either you or him. (Yes. I thought that was entertaining)

 

That you could bed her and even rub it in his face. Which at point he runs away. Convince her to be with him. Then there's that NPC who lost a loved one who became a werewolf. I could go on and on. All of that interaction and different outcome combined. Made it feel much more interesting. Again in my own opinion.  Then running ot an NPC for a short time completing a quest that has no impact on the overall game if you complete it or not.

 

You can simply ignore many of these quests like upgrading your own keep. Nothing happens either way. Aside from gaining more influence. I thought this point was covered several times though in earlier threads. I think you are sincerely reading into things. That are not there.  

[Lebanese Dude]

This is a post. You made. You said that its undeniable there's no Consequence. You can't simply take words that I never said. Then claim I said then and I'm being willfully ignorant. While at the same time you agreeing with my point in an earlier post. 

 

Wow... are you seriously misquoting me right now?

 

I said it's undeniable that DAO has consequences for your side quests despite having minimal content. DAI has both content AND consequence

 

Unbelievable.

 

 

 

I did say killing generic monsters over and over. Setting up camps on different world. Collecting items for people. It feels like a grind. I said that it feels like almost work to get to the fun part. I also said that is my own opinion. If you find it different then that's fine. That's your own opinion. From the time you enter the game. You are doing quest for other people without a compelling feeling to do those quests. It's like your turning it in just because you have to do it. Not that you want to do it to advance the story.

 

So you heavily dislike exploration then? DAI isn't for you then. It's also easy to point out that every game has "trash" on the way to the fun part of the quests.

The only difference is that DAI asks you to travel somewhere first. Considering you can set up camps (optionally) to make it quicker, then your point has no merit.

 

 

In DA: O again. In my own opinion. In case anyone might get confused. It didn't feel like a grind to go to different factions. There was enough interaction in meeting the different people. Making several choices along the way. For example in the Elf Camp you have several NPC's to interact with. There's much more interaction in speaking with them even before you set out to do your quest. There's that guy in the camp who wants to be a hunter to win over the heart of that woman. You can either A: get the items for him to impress her so he can become a hunter. B: Talk to her using your skill convince her to bed either you or him. (Yes. I thought that was entertaining)

So you just want cutscenes then?

 

Otherwise both games have side quests where someone asks you to do something and you do it.

Both games have dialogue with random people in the zone.

etc..

 

DAI has its very own elf camp as well which does everything you asked for and more. Not gonna even get into that.

 

 

 

You can simply ignore many of these quests like upgrading your own keep. Nothing happens either way. Aside from gaining more influence. I thought this point was covered several times though in earlier threads. I think you are sincerely reading into things. That are not there.  

 

Options are nice. Not all options need to have signfiicant impact on everything.

 

If you want to make a fair comparison, how about you compare the drive to do the main quests in DAO as opposed to DAI?

 

In DAO you're handed defacto leadership of the Wardens and then just walk around to each major base talking to people and doing their jobs for them before getting their alliance. Even Shale thinks you're being ridiculous.

 

In DAI every major quest has significant main story build-up to it and is entirely relevant to the goals of the Inquisition.

What about that counterpoint?

 

How about companion relationship building being an actual product of your actions as opposed to how many gifts you shower them with? Does that not add interactivity and flavor to how you approach the various quests?

 

Always the same arguments made in a vacuum without any consideration to anything else in the game.

 

--

 

I've seen you and people like you post the same old tired rhetoric over and over again. Frankly, if I make assumptions, they've always been rather accurate given how predictable people have been. 
 

I'm done here.

[rashie]

The deflecting going on in here regarding not being able to mess up being the hero is quite amusing.

 

Are you people being purposely obtuse or is it not obvious to you that he is not talking about failing in combat and gameplay but more about story? This game is almost completely void of the ability to be evil. 

[Farangbaa]

This is kinda like the ME3 forums. Someone states some subjective opinion and presents it as objective fact, then you tell them the exact same thing happens in ME1 and ME2 and then it's suddenly... different.

Yes, it's different. You like ME1 and ME2 and you don't like ME3. But don't pretend there's some objective truth out there that solidifies your dislike into being better than my liking.

[The Jackal]

Wow... are you seriously misquoting me right now?

 

I said it's undeniable that DAO has consequences for your side quests despite having minimal content. DAI has both content AND consequence

 

Unbelievable.

 

 

 

So you heavily dislike exploration then? DAI isn't for you then. It's also easy to point out that every game has "trash" on the way to the fun part of the quests.

The only difference is that DAI asks you to travel somewhere first. Considering you can set up camps (optionally) to make it quicker, then your point has no merit.

 

So you just want cutscenes then? Otherwise both games have side quests where someone asks you to do something and you do it.

 

 

Options are nice. Not all options need to have signfiicant impact on everything.

 

If you want to make a fair comparison, how about you compare the drive to do the main quests in DAO as opposed to DAI?

In DAO you're handed defacto leadership of the Wardens and then just walk around to each major base talking to people and doing their jobs for them before getting their alliance.

 

In DAI every major quest has significant main story build-up to it and is entirely relevant to the goals of the Inquisition.

What about that counterpoint?

 

How about companion relationship building being an actual product of your actions as opposed to how many gifts you shower them with? Does that not add interactivity and flavor to how you approach the various quests?

--

 

I've seen you and people like you post the same old tired rhetoric over and over again. Frankly, if I make assumptions, they've always been rather accurate given how predictable people have been.

 

I'm done here.

 

 

Let me just get this correctly. You said and I quote the Consequence aspect of that...is un-deniable. As in you can't deny it. That's coming directly from you. Yet you are now back peddling a little bit. Then you claim That I'm being willfully ignorant. Even though you agree with the point I am making. I know it sucks sometimes when you say one thing.

 

Then that same quote it used against you when you try to make that same point. You are right. Not everything needs to have a Consequence to it. It would be nice if many of them did however. That what I fell in love with the game in the first place. I didn't need shiny graphics or upgrade wheel when you speak to someone. I thought what made the game a initial success was fine with just how it was. That was making several different choices. Those same choices having a direct near anf long impact on the overall story of the game. In each of the quest in DA: O. You have almost two separate army's to pick up.

 

Mage/Templar( Not only do you get to decide who to take. They show up later in the end game to help you in the final battle. While you can make the same choice in DA: I aside from a short interaction once you make the choice. You don't actually see them joining the battle as you did with DA: O

 

Golem/Warriors

 

I could go on. I think you get my point. Not only that. There are several choices to make along the way in each of the faction main camp's. Like that girl who wanted to study magic. If you speak with the first enchanter after saving them. You can do that. There are hubs of interaction with quest that feel natural to the flow of questing.

 

In DA: I you have a short small interaction with a quest giver the majority of the time is spent fighting generic monsters. Setting up 4-5 camps. If you don't set it up. Have no fear. It doesn't really change anything expect the influence meter. That's the point I made several times. There's no outcome that's different no not doing a quest as to doing in.

 

In some of the quest you can make choices. Sitting on the throne passing judgement on people  that has no real big impact on the story. It's not as if later on that same person you decided to pardon. Comes up to you and helps you with doing a quest. (Though it would be nice if it did.) Many of the choices are cosmetic as in the appearance of the keep. Not actually impacting the story in several different outcomes as in DA: O 

 

There's a difference in my own opinion. I say the word opinion often. Even on the first page of the thread. That's exactly what it is. I never claimed to be complete certain in the things I posted. 

[Lee T]

LOL I seriously feel bad for the developers. Being held in contempt because of their customers' habits is just sad.

As much as I'd like to agree, most of us don't know squat about game development and a lot of our critics directed specifically at them are most likely way off base, but to that I say : know your customers.

They collect data on how people play since DAO. Mike Laidlaw's answer here, discovering there are completionist, seems very naive (but since I don't know how much the reporter butchered his words I'll emphasize "seems").

I've have yet to read articles like the Kotaku piece about leaving the hinterlands for another game, to me that shows something is amiss with the game's flow. I don't know on which shoulder this falls on, but there's something falling either way.

I'm also not a fan of the "blame it on the customer's perception" technique. It never makes you look good.

[Farangbaa]

They collect data on how people play since DAO. Mike Laidlaw's answer here, discovering there are completionist, seems very naive (but since I don't know how much the reporter butchered his words I'll emphasize "seems").

It's not so naive, considering some of the statistics that are known about games.

Like how by most units sold of a game, if statistics are tracked, are never even finished. And if I look at my Steam library, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. And some ME statistics are glaring as well, like how a large portion of the players (forgot how much exactly) never even saved Wrex on Virmire, or something like that. It's been a while and I'm too lazy to search.

My point is that they probably never expected completionism to be so widespread that it would lead to complaints of there being too much to do, or something like that

[hoechlbear]

Warning: Big wall of text bellow.

 

 

The thing I see with your other statements is they have a subjective quantity. I never felt that Origins had that many outcomes for I don't count having a different line of dialogue at the end of a quest to make it a different for there isn't a consequence in the game. For me there are more outcomes present in Inquisition for you have the quests that involve Agents and the different outcomes you can get with those or the different quests based on the different Inquisitor Origin or Inquisition Perk you purchase.

 

They have different outcomes, and you have different ways of solving each quest. Did you read my previous post giving some examples? Cammen and Gheyna's quest alone can be solved in 6 different ways. Persuade Gheyna to give Cammen a chance, you can give Cammen a wolf pelt and persuade him to claim he has hunted it himself, you can convince either Gheyna or Cammen the other one hates him/her, you can seduce Gheyna and tell Cammen, you can persuade Cammen to sleep with you and tell Gheyna or you can convince Gheyna that Cammen thinks he will bed her soon, leading her to slapping Cammen. Yes, all of those choices either lead to you bringing them together or apart, but they do end in a different way, and it's not just "a different line of dialogue" not to mention that you  have a number of choices that allow you to shape your warden's personality and depending on how you complete the quest, the entire clan will react to you differently.

 

All DA's sidequests rarely have an impact on the world/story, they are there just for you to have a bit of fun, that's why they are called sidequests. Sure in DAI you can recruit agents but all that does is give Leliana, Cullen or Jophie a 10% (or 5%, I can't remember) reduction on the time it takes them to complete war table missions. I don't consider that as a consequence. I honestly don't know what you mean by "and the different outcomes you can get with those", there are no different outcomes, you either recruit the agent or you don't. And "or the different quests based on the different Inquisitor Origin" you must be talking about the war table missions, that's hardly a sidequest, it's just text.

 

 

And my comment is about the disproportionate investment. Yes, Sera and Viviene have investment comparable to, say, Wynne and Zevran. Except that the Sera, Viviene and Solas quests are the exception in DAI, not the rule. And there are more characters over which these resources are invested in. 

 

Except Zevran doesn't even have a proper sidequest. His "sidequest" is when you encounter the Crows and he can either stay with you or betray you, I think that's pretty important because there's two possible outcomes from that encounter and it's not the same as, say, Solas' quest which doesn't affect anything.

 

 

No, it's not missing the point. You have some ridiculous subjective affection for the character; I get that. Some people have ridiculous affection for Scout Harding, despite the fact that your conversations are paper thin and she exhibits, in my view, nothing that really constitutes any character. That's all subjective - it's not a sign of some preeminent or masterful quest design that somehow Bioware dropped in DA:I. 

 

Lmao, I don't even care for Dagna. Yes, she's cute and all, but I don't have a "ridiculous subjective affection". I mentioned her as an example because like it or not, she is one of the most memorable NPCs in the DA games. Just like Scout Harding in DAI. (except Harding isn't exactly a quest giver like Dagna, she is a regular character on the game.)

 

 

DA:I and DA:O have comparable NPC interaction. But a lot of the NPCs you can interact with in DA:I aren't necessarily quest givers, and that dialogue is spread out over a great deal more characters. 

 

Are you serious? Just how many NPCs you can talk to in DAI that aren't quest givers? (and even the quest givers you can only say things like "what do you mean" and "goodbye" you can't even ask questions about the world or anything). In DAO in each location you have so many NPCs you could just talk to and ask a bunch of questions. You get to Ostagar you can talk to the merchant, an elf servant, several guards (at least 4) and soldiers (like the Ash warriors), the priest, the healer, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Then you get to Lothering you can talk to refugees, a farmer, templars, soldiers, priest, bartender, and you get encounters like the doomsayer and the merchant charging prices too high. In the Dalish camp you can even sit by the fire and talk to the elves and ask them several questions. You get dozens of little encounters/interactions with NPCs in each location. I honestly can't remember a single one in DAI, apart from one line of dialogue with the healer at Skyhold maybe. 

 

 

The actual design of the quest - fetch something for someone, or kill something - is completely identical across both games. You have no novel or clever or even experimental gameplay in DA:I at all, and you didn't in DA:O. 

 

The finding the ring off a corpse quest doesn't become better designed if you could also sell the ring or forge a magic item out of it. It's still a stupid fetch quest. But it feels subjectively better because there are multiple resolutions. 

 

In DAI you barely have any quests that involve actual people, and interactions with those people. It almost always involves finding corpses or objects, or kill something.

 

Finding a ring could be better if let's say, you would arrive at the spot where the templars were and you would find them dead and the ring is no longer with them. Then you would have to try and find who took it and you would found out some refugees stole it to sell it and buy some food. Then you would have the option of letting them keep the ring or ask for the ring and give them money, or be a dick and just take the ring and leave them without nothing. Then coming back to the widow, if you didn't have the ring with you, you could lie saying you couldn't find it, or tell the truth. I'm not a writer, so that was a terrible example, but you get my idea, right?? There's always something that could be added to these quests that would make them so so so much more than a mere fetch/kill quest.

[Sanunes]

Warning: Big wall of text bellow.

 

 

 

They have different outcomes, and you have different ways of solving each quest. Did you read my previous post giving some examples? Cammen and Gheyna's quest alone can be solved in 6 different ways. Persuade Gheyna to give Cammen a chance, you can give Cammen a wolf pelt and persuade him to claim he has hunted it himself, you can convince either Gheyna or Cammen the other one hates him/her, you can seduce Gheyna and tell Cammen, you can persuade Cammen to sleep with you and tell Gheyna or you can convince Gheyna that Cammen thinks he will bed her soon, leading her to slapping Cammen. Yes, all of those choices either lead to you bringing them together or apart, but they do end in a different way, and it's not just "a different line of dialogue" not to mention that you  have a number of choices that allow you to shape your warden's personality and depending on how you complete the quest, the entire clan will react to you differently.

 

All DA's sidequests rarely have an impact on the world/story, they are there just for you to have a bit of fun, that's why they are called sidequests. Sure in DAI you can recruit agents but all that does is give Leliana, Cullen or Jophie a 10% (or 5%, I can't remember) reduction on the time it takes them to complete war table missions. I don't consider that as a consequence. I honestly don't know what you mean by "and the different outcomes you can get with those", there are no different outcomes, you either recruit the agent or you don't. And "or the different quests based on the different Inquisitor Origin" you must be talking about the war table missions, that's hardly a sidequest, it's just text.

 

 

I did read your post and I never said that there weren't multiple paths to complete some of the quests (if I remember correctly there is about one of those per area), I said the outcomes were rarely different, for you either have them together or not together in those six paths and not matter what path you take it is an isolated path that at the end and there isn't any change to reflect that choice elsewhere in the game.  To me the scope of a lot of the complaints are very narrow to try and prove where BioWare went wrong, if you compare those few side quests in Origins to the Judgements in Inquisition, its a very similar thing it just allows everyone to see the result instead of just the people who did the sidequests. 

 

The thing is having those lines of dialogue or the different choices you make in other quests in the forest might change how those NPCs react to you, it doesn't leave me with any different feeling then what happens in Dragon Age: Inquisition. To me those quests don't have any real impact on the story for the game doesn't adjust future content based on any of the side quests, they are just left hanging there with maybe a different line if you interact with the NPC, but that is all that happens to me.  There is no consequence at the Landsmeet if you lie to Tuck's mother about what of the multiple paths to completion you pick for that quest, the starving prisoner doesn't join your party if you give him food or how you got it. They are all isolated quests unless you pick the ones that have something to do with the Landsmeet.

 

I rather see the primary quests have a noticeable change on the world like it does in Inquisition over what is offered in Origins, for unlike Origins the choices you make in several major quests have a noticeable change.

Modifié par Sanunes, 19 mars 2015 - 01:35 .

[Poledo]

I think it would have been interesting to have a Starcraft or old Warcraft play style of first exploring areas. Your Inky enters the zone and begins giving out orders and sending troops out. Let's take storm coast as an example. You send out a squad to determine the fate of the previous soldiers. You send out others to explore and gather items to set up camps around the zone. You build defenses and more troops at those areas to protect them etc.  Then once all the map is complete - you can explore it DA:I style with your inquisitor and still have encounters or help your troops defend a camp, kill dragons, close darkspawn caves etc.

 

Just a thought. I'd pay for that!

[Giantdeathrobot]

I feel like the side-quests with multiple possible solutions were mostly replaced by the Judgements and War Table. Each judgement has at least 3 options, many of them have 4, and in grand total there's almost 20 of them in the game. That makes for loads of different options. War Table is less interesting but you can still do pretty damn important stuff such as preventing war between Ferelden and Orlais, which is reflected in the epilogue. 

 

Inquisition also has more options in companion quests. Most of them can be resolved in several ways or have a binary choice at the end, Origins rarely had that except for hardening Leliana/Alistair or not. Said choices are also often reflected in the game, such as Bull becoming Tal-Vashoth or Cole's spirit/human dichotomy, to say nothing of Blackwall's quest which has loads of options.

 

I mean, sure, if you only straight up compare just the side-quests you pick up in the field, Inquisition's are poorer. That is true and should be fixed. But the number of choices you make across the entire game is pretty identical thanks to the judgements and companion quests, and they are generally more reflected in Inquisition than in Origins. What you do with Ghenna and her suitor doesn,t impact anything in any meaningful way, while, say, deciding to make X or Y a prisoner of the Inquisition means you can get down to the prison to have a chat with them and (if you're lucky) hear some banter between prisoners.

[hoechlbear]

I did read your post and I never said that there weren't multiple paths to complete some of the quests (if I remember correctly there is about one of those per area)

 

Erm, no. In Orzammar not only do you have Ruck and Dagna, which I already mentioned, you also have: 

 

Spoiler

 

- Precious Metals: You can try to turn the guy in, which will result in him attacking you. If you accept the deal, you can persuade him to go for a lower price.  Or you can just steal the lyrium and not pay for it at all.

 

- Zerlinda's Woe: You can convince her family to take her in. You can convince her to go to the surface. You can convince her to go to the Orzammar's chantry (if you did that quest). Or you can just convince her to abandon the baby.

 

 

In the Brecilian Forest, apart from Cammen and Gheyna, and Danyla the werewolf, you also have:

 

Spoiler

- Wounded in the Forest: You can firstly, no matter how you end the quest, loot his body or not. Then you can decide if you want to take him back to the camp (which will trigger another cutscene with the Dalish and it will result in them being a little more friendly towards you and you'll get to speak with the man you saved later if you want), you can stall and ask him questions, or you can just kill him.

 

- Elora's Halla: You can either calm the Halla and find out what's the problem, therefore saving it, or lie and have the Halla killed. Saving the Halla will also change some dialogue the Dalish have with you.

 

- Rare Ironbark: Sure, it's a fetch quest, but not only do you get a nice interaction at the beginning where you see the craftsman scolding his apprentice but you also get to have something crafted from Ironbark. You can also refuse a reward by saying the clan needs it more than you which once again will affect how the clan sees you.

 

And so on. I'm not going to name every quest, but it's way more than "one per area" last I checked. DAI has a couple of hundreds of sidequests and only a handful allow you to make choices.

 

 

 

The thing is having those lines of dialogue or the different choices you make in other quests in the forest might change how those NPCs react to you, it doesn't leave me with any different feeling then what happens in Dragon Age: Inquisition. To me those quests don't have any real impact on the story for the game doesn't adjust future content based on any of the side quests, they are just left hanging there with maybe a different line if you interact with the NPC, but that is all that happens to me.  There is no consequence at the Landsmeet if you lie to Tuck's mother about what of the multiple paths to completion you pick for that quest, the starving prisoner doesn't join your party if you give him food or how you got it. They are all isolated quests unless you pick the ones that have something to do with the Landsmeet.

 

 

Right, because refugees will die if you don't fetch them supplies or food. If you fetch the ring for the widow, she definitely joins your party. If you don't fetch the potion for the woman who can't breath, she definitely dies and you'll have an encounter with her husband blaming you. If you choose not to close the 100 rifts, the demons will most definitely attack all NPCs and kill everyone. Oh wait... nothing of that happens.

 

You're under the illusion that gaining power and influence by completing these quests mean something. But it doesn't. Like I said, you can complete the game without doing these sidequests. Nothing changes if you do them or not. People won't die if you don't bring them food or supplies. You can choose not to close a single rift and nothing will happen. People will still respect you and the Inquisition no matter what you do. You will still have your army and defeat Coryphy without a problem. The only reason you have to do some of these quests is because the main quests are locked and you need a certain amount of power (which is just a number) to unlock them. This is essentially there just to force you to go into the worlds and do some of the fetch quests. If someday someone will be able to mod the game and make it so the main quests aren't locked, you don't even have to set foot in half of the worlds.

 

 

I rather see the primary quests have a noticeable change on the world like it does in Inquisition over what is offered in Origins, for unlike Origins the choices you make in several major quests have a noticeable change.

 

Now I'm confused. Are we still talking about sidequests or...?

[Shadow Fox]

It's not how difficult it is. That doesn't enter into it. It could be as easy as walking across the map. It's how fun it is. In DA: O every single mission I had fun in doing. There was no grind to me. Every part of the game was the fun part. I didn't like "Well I have to complete this to do this. That's the key thing I'm trying to penetrate into peoples minds. Difficulty has nothing to do with it.

 

In DA: O. I did Shale's personal quest. I had fun with it. I learned more about his past. It was informative as well as it was interesting.  

Still funner than level grinding,even the Fade and Deep Roads?,see previous or how you had to resolve the problems of every faction you recruited?

 

Shale is a she  ,So was Cassandra,Iron Bull,Blackwall,Dorian,Solas and Sera's.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

@Giantdeathrobot:

hmm... last time i checked Skyhold prison was empty. did last patch change something?

 

i'm not touching companion quests or main plot quests, those are fine

 

anyway i think that's the problem - judgements and war table are not really quests - they could be really damn good ones. but they aren't: judgement is a convo with a cutscene, war table is a text based game in which your involvement comes down to clicking a button. war table mission, my PC couldn't participate in, outcome in the epilogue only adds insult to injury

neither of them impatcs your story directly. you judge mayor - a war table mission pops up (help crestwood or maybe i'm confusing it with emprise du lion?), you do a war table mission (capture the mayor) - the judgement comes up. you don't get to speak with him afterwards, truth to be told, i'm not sure if crestwood people even talk about him after the judgement.

 

the example with Ghenna is interesting one, i don't remember it very well: did one conversation affect the conversation with another person? was a quest acquired after a convo and was optional (like... get warewolf 10 pelts)? did it have multiple resolutions/outcomes? it's a silly, minor, not even worth mentioning side quest from DA:O and yet somehow it's more polished than the best side quest (imho) in DAI.

 

of course in DA:O quests didn't impact warden's story in this manner either, but at least they were there for me to complete them and gave some space for roleplaying at the same time. are they superior? no, just more fun.

[The Jackal]

Still funner than level grinding,even the Fade and Deep Roads?,see previous or how you had to resolve the problems of every faction you recruited?

 

Shale is a she  ,So was Cassandra,Iron Bull,Blackwall,Dorian,Solas and Sera's.

 

The thing was it was done in a way. It wasn't just random running around attacking the same monsters. The deep roads had a very unique twist on it. In there deep roads you encountered the Legion of the Dead learned about them. Interacted. Then the story became even more dark when that woman started rhyming that song about "Brood" I still remember the creepy music when you encountered that woman who turned into a monster.

 

Each faction had a really good story with go with it. Each faction had a hub of different people with interactions that had several different outcomes. It wasn't just running around attacking monsters . It had a very interesting story. In DA: I when you go to a new map. You see the same person who briefly tells you about the map. That's it. 

 

Yes there was personal quests in DA: I it didn't have any lingering effects no not doing them. It just wasn't compelling the choices based on different outcomes. I never said there wasn't personal quest for companions in DA: I. Its just those quests didn't impact the overall story in the short or long term. People have to admit much of DA: I is running around collecting items. There's very brief diagonal options for people. There's no impact for not doing any of the things. I couldn't see it at first when I completed the game the first time around. Then I tried not upgrading items or completing quests. I was sincerely surprised to find out that literally almost nothing changed expect at very end the text written on it.

 

I'm not the only one who feels there was a constant grind in the game. That the choices didn't matter overall. Even the choices you did actually make only impacted the influence meter that only briefly impacted The war room quest materials you got. Almost none of the war room quests had any lasting difference. Even if you banished the wardens almost right after you leave. There's barely any mention of keeping or banishing it. They don't help in the final fight the day DA; O did it. Agin just my own opinion. Maybe I just liked the DA: O more diagonal.

 

There are certain quests I did like in DA: I The Sera companion quest and Solas. It's just a difference from other games. I really did like some things about DA: I its just how they set up the game. I wish there was more interactions and choices. I do still like the game overall though. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Jackal:  We got very different things out of DA:I.

 

In the Hinterlands I fought either/both the Templars and the Mages - when I finally raided their main camps, they no longer terrorized the region.  Then I went to Redcliff and was embroiled in a choice to help, or turn my back on, the mages held up there.

 

In the Hissing Wastes I battled Venatori and "raced" them (in the same way every RPG depicts time sensitive material = player always wins) to uncover dwarven artifacts of a Thaig that had come to the surface.

 

In Crestwood I liberated a bandit stronghold for the Inquisition - then lowered a lake revealing a flooded town, uncovered mysteries that tied into the Fifth Blight and the mayor.

 

In the Western Approach I fought against the fabled Grey Wardens - liberated or destroyed them - and struck a blow against Corypheus' plans.

 

In the Exalted Plains I fought against Free Men and necromancers who rose the dead of both Celene and Gaspard's armies to weaken both sides - it was here, actually, that I had a very tiny, but profound experience. I broke into a sealed area to liberate some soldiers... one woman was reaching up asking for aid, I ignored her to loot thinking I would just get back to her when I was done... she died.  Loved it.  Was profound for my RP.

 

If your complaint is that none of this shows up to parade your accolades at the end of the story to tell you how special you are (like in DA:O) then yes, I can see your distaste... but I appreciated the freedom.  I didn't do Empris Du Leon nor the Emerald Graves and I'll enjoy them in another playthrough.  

 

I'm not saying the story was better than DA:Os.  Both were relatively generic.  However - in my opinion - DA:I offers a ton of unique (for DA) experiences and in depth Companion storylines that aren't present in DA:O.  (for me - companions alone make DA:I better by far)

[The Jackal]

@The Jackal:  We got very different things out of DA:I.

 

In the Hinterlands I fought either/both the Templars and the Mages - when I finally raided their main camps, they no longer terrorized the region.  Then I went to Redcliff and was embroiled in a choice to help, or turn my back on, the mages held up there.

 

In the Hissing Wastes I battled Venatori and "raced" them (in the same way every RPG depicts time sensitive material = player always wins) to uncover dwarven artifacts of a Thaig that had come to the surface.

 

In Crestwood I liberated a bandit stronghold for the Inquisition - then lowered a lake revealing a flooded town, uncovered mysteries that tied into the Fifth Blight and the mayor.

 

In the Western Approach I fought against the fabled Grey Wardens - liberated or destroyed them - and struck a blow against Corypheus' plans.

 

In the Exalted Plains I fought against Free Men and necromancers who rose the dead of both Celene and Gaspard's armies to weaken both sides - it was here, actually, that I had a very tiny, but profound experience. I broke into a sealed area to liberate some soldiers... one woman was reaching up asking for aid, I ignored her to loot thinking I would just get back to her when I was done... she died.  Loved it.  Was profound for my RP.

 

If your complaint is that none of this shows up to parade your accolades at the end of the story to tell you how special you are (like in DA:O) then yes, I can see your distaste... but I appreciated the freedom.  I didn't do Empris Du Leon nor the Emerald Graves and I'll enjoy them in another playthrough.  

 

I'm not saying the story was better than DA:Os.  Both were relatively generic.  However - in my opinion - DA:I offers a ton of unique (for DA) experiences and in depth Companion storylines that aren't present in DA:O.  (for me - companions alone make DA:I better by far)

 

 

It's not that they didn't tell me how special I was. In a story I like it more interactive. For more diagonal. It feels like I'm focusing too much on the negative aspects the more I comment in this thread. Its as if I'm re-circling my thoughts about certain locations. I really don't want to hate on this game. After a while of responding to certain points and other times ones I actually responded to. That's what I feel like doing. I don't want to do that. I really did like DA: O. I'll comment about positive aspects of DA: I to serve as a counter weight if if you will. After that. I'm going to take a break from posting in here. Not because I don't want to respond to people. I just don't want keep re-circling negative aspects of the game.

 

I'll talk about some positive aspects of the game. In DA: I I really did enjoy the tavern songs and music. I still can't get the Sera song out of my head. I had fun with her when I played as a female. I noticed depending on your gender you can romance people or not. She fell in with love with my female person. I liked getting to know her story. I almost felt bad for her in a way.

 

I noticed when you bring Solas into the fade or people into Wicked Eyes and Wicked Heart. Their banter changes. Upon talking to Solas early in the game. You can sort of build up his story line. The graphics was likely the best thing done about this game. They seemed to fine tune that once it got under way. I was a tad bit let down they didn't fix the banter till two months into the game when almost everyone had played it. It means there was an awful lot of silence. Playing as a male. I learned there were ways to reverse the right of tranquility which was pretty interesting you could even attempt that.

 

Overall. Yes I did have fun with the game. It's not a bad game by any stretch. My earlier posts its just a different one then DA: O not different in terms of graphics even though the graphics are much better. In other ways as of choices. Even by itself. It's a really good game. I don't want feel like I'm hating on the game. I'm not. I like the game. I just noticed differences in it.

 

I'm take a small break from this thread. I'll keep reading and coming to it. I just don't want keep pointing away at the flaws or negative aspects while not highlighting the good ones as well. Just because I may not say it. Doesn't mean I don't think there wasn't very good parts of this game. There was.   

[Giantdeathrobot]

@Giantdeathrobot:

hmm... last time i checked Skyhold prison was empty. did last patch change something?

 

i'm not touching companion quests or main plot quests, those are fine

 

anyway i think that's the problem - judgements and war table are not really quests - they could be really damn good ones. but they aren't: judgement is a convo with a cutscene, war table is a text based game in which your involvement comes down to clicking a button. war table mission, my PC couldn't participate in, outcome in the epilogue only adds insult to injury

neither of them impatcs your story directly. you judge mayor - a war table mission pops up (help crestwood or maybe i'm confusing it with emprise du lion?), you do a war table mission (capture the mayor) - the judgement comes up. you don't get to speak with him afterwards, truth to be told, i'm not sure if crestwood people even talk about him after the judgement.

 

the example with Ghenna is interesting one, i don't remember it very well: did one conversation affect the conversation with another person? was a quest acquired after a convo and was optional (like... get warewolf 10 pelts)? did it have multiple resolutions/outcomes? it's a silly, minor, not even worth mentioning side quest from DA:O and yet somehow it's more polished than the best side quest (imho) in DAI.

 

of course in DA:O quests didn't impact warden's story in this manner either, but at least they were there for me to complete them and gave some space for roleplaying at the same time. are they superior? no, just more fun.

 

Yet a convo and a cutscene with multiple choices is exactly what people seem to be clamoring for. They are there. There's almost 20 of them, in fact, spread over the entire game. Could Bioware have moved some of the judgements to cutscenes on the field? I suppose that it would have been a solution to a point. Nevertheless, judgements are in the game and should definitely be counted among the game's RP option when discussing them, or the lack thereof. Some of them are less consequential (mayor of Crestwood, Ser Ruth, Orlesian gal in Emprise), others have bigger ramifiations in story (Florianne, Samson, Alexius, Denam) or gameplay (Thom Rainier). And yes, them not being in jail is a bug that is supposedly fixed as of the latest patch, albeit the banter between prisoners fires off very rarely. If you send someone to jail, they should be there and you can have a convo with them.

 

If it's quest design we're talking about, well I'm sorry to say but beyond a handful of them spread across their entire library Bioware has always been not very good at side-quest design. It's pretty always go there, kill this, fetch that. Maybe you get a cutscene or, in BG2, some fluff to go around it, but it comes down to it side-quest design has never been one of their fortes. Obsidian does it way better than them. 

[Nefla]

Did you ever consider that this is a result of it being your first foray into the Dragon Age universe and everything being fresh and therefore exciting?

 

Leaving the honeymoon stage sucks, but between learning more about spirits, ancient elves, Orlesian culture, Warden history, Chantry structure and history, etc... claiming that the lore developments via story and quests in DAI are bad is just silly and willfully ignorant

 

Also claiming that you found the equivalent Collective/Chantry Board/Irregulars quests in DAO to be "much more entertaining" than those in DAI is downright laughable, especially since the DAI quests at least have you exploring beautifully crafted areas instead of wading through brown-filtered miniscule zones.

 

Nostalgic bias is a hell of a drug.

You're dismissing people's criticism on an assumption. I played Mass Effect first (and loved it) but when ME2 came out I loved it even more than the first. By your assumption shouldn't I have rejected ME2 and clung to my ME1 nostalgia? Same with Oblivion and Skyrim (I liked Skyrim better) as well as other games. I'm sure if the chanter's board quests had been required to unlock the next area people would have had a much bigger problem with them. The reason I feel more positively about DA:O's fetch quests (because yes, it did have some) was that the game did a good job having main plot quests, the more interesting and interactive side quests, etc...distributed through each area and you could collect garnets or whatever along the way. Collecting garnets was never your sole reason to be in an area. Even so, if you found that kind of thing boring you didn't have to do a single one. You could choose to do only the main quest or the main quest + the more fleshed out side quests that tickled your fancy.

 

When you think of DA:I's lore, what have we really learned? What new information or perspective have we gained? We were in Orlais for a large chunk of the game, it would have been a perfect opportunity to really introduce us to the people and the culture in an in depth way. Instead we learned nothing new. Orlais remains the pompous French stereotype in fancy masks. Compare Orzammar and the deep roads to Val Royeaux and the Winter Palace. In DA:O each side quest helped flesh out that culture and teach you more. From Zerlinda being forced to become casteless because she had a son with a casteless man and was kicked out into the streets to Dwarves being so staunchly mired in tradition that they flat out refuse to even let Brother Burkel hold Andrastian prayer meetings to the legion of the dead getting a second chance at honor by protecting Orzammar from the darkspawn with their lives, etc...

 

People like different things, they look for different things. I don't find wandering around those large pretty maps to be fun. Things like finding notes on the ground that lead me to and fro, killing different groups of generic red templars or venatori do absolutely nothing for me. I think back to Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim and there are a few reasons why I love them and for the most part dislike DA:I even though they are seemingly similar games. For one, the combat systems. I can tolerate almost any combat system to get to the story and character parts that I like, but for combat to actually be fun for me it has to be player reflex based. Though I didn't care for the combat in DA:O or DA2 I found it mildly enjoyable sometimes. There were things like traps and glyphs of paralysis and repulsion that gave an extra kick to setting up the battlefield which I liked and the range of abilities was much greater. In DA:I there were less abilities than before and for some reason you were restricted to using only 8 of them in combat. The enemies in DA:I were for the most part generic goons and monsters bored me as well. I want a reason to fight someone. I want to talk to them and have them threaten me, try to intimidate me, or be able to try to talk them down, things like that.

 

Another thing I found lacking in DA:I is people. I want NPCs to talk to, to help establish the feel of each region, to flesh out the world, and to make me sympathetic and keep me interested. Most of the NPCs in DA:I are either cardboard cutouts with no interaction (and once in a while if you're lucky, short dialogues will play from some of them) with no names or quest givers with one or two lines to give me a quest that gives me little to no reason to care. Sometimes what they say even contradicts their surroundings such as the guy who wants you to get blankets or else the refugees will freeze to death. You look around you and you're in a summer meadow...if you're uncomfortable at night then build a campfire but no one's going to freeze to death in that climate. You have a woman in Crestwood who wants you to collect bodies from the lake so they can get a "proper burial" but when you look at what she's doing, she has a pile of mangled corpses haphazardly strewn around her feet which she has set on fire. This is far from respectful or proper.

 

Of course I think I've said more than enough on the subject of side quests but not having the deeper, more involved side quests with a human element alongside the fetch quests was one of the biggest let downs for me.

 

This isn't "nostalgia" it isn't fear of change or complaining for the sake of complaining. This is how I feel.

[Melca36]

This is a post. You made. You said that its undeniable there's no Consequence. You can't simply take words that I never said. Then claim I said then and I'm being willfully ignorant. While at the same time you agreeing with my point in an earlier post. 

 

http://tinypic.com/v...=8#.VQq6J_nF9KV

 

I did say killing generic monsters over and over. Setting up camps on different world. Collecting items for people. It feels like a grind. I said that it feels like almost work to get to the fun part. I also said that is my own opinion. If you find it different then that's fine. That's your own opinion. From the time you enter the game. You are doing quest for other people without a compelling feeling to do those quests. It's like your turning it in just because you have to do it. Not that you want to do it to advance the story.

 

In DA: O again. In my own opinion. In case anyone might get confused. It didn't feel like a grind to go to different factions. There was enough interaction in meeting the different people. Making several choices along the way. For example in the Elf Camp you have several NPC's to interact with. There's much more interaction in speaking with them even before you set out to do your quest. There's that guy in the camp who wants to be a hunter to win over the heart of that woman. You can either A: get the items for him to impress her so he can become a hunter. B: Talk to her using your skill convince her to bed either you or him. (Yes. I thought that was entertaining)

 

That you could bed her and even rub it in his face. Which at point he runs away. Convince her to be with him. Then there's that NPC who lost a loved one who became a werewolf. I could go on and on. All of that interaction and different outcome combined. Made it feel much more interesting. Again in my own opinion.  Then running ot an NPC for a short time completing a quest that has no impact on the overall game if you complete it or not.

 

You can simply ignore many of these quests like upgrading your own keep. Nothing happens either way. Aside from gaining more influence. I thought this point was covered several times though in earlier threads. I think you are sincerely reading into things. That are not there.  

 

 

Please explain how the Gnawed Noble Quests where you have to find 10 garnets are more entertaining? They had zero relevance to the game and neither did the ones in DA2.     

[Melca36]

It's not so naive, considering some of the statistics that are known about games.

Like how by most units sold of a game, if statistics are tracked, are never even finished. And if I look at my Steam library, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. And some ME statistics are glaring as well, like how a large portion of the players (forgot how much exactly) never even saved Wrex on Virmire, or something like that. It's been a while and I'm too lazy to search.

My point is that they probably never expected completionism to be so widespread that it would lead to complaints of there being too much to do, or something like that

 

 

I think the next game will be smaller but if people are expecting a DA2 size game...its NEVER going to happen.

 

The majority of people want their moneys worth when its comes to purchasing a game.   As fun as DA2 was it did not have the content to be worth $60

[Nefla]

Please explain how the Gnawed Noble Quests where you have to find 10 garnets are more entertaining? They had zero relevance to the game and neither did the ones in DA2.     

You could do those along the way while doing the main quests and there were more interesting side quests as well. In DA:I the main plot is mostly clustered in its' own little areas such as the temple of sacred ashes ruins, therinfall redoubt, the winter palace, etc...which leaves all these big empty zones with nothing to do in them aside from chores and killing generic repetitive enemies. You also didn't have to do a single boring chore type quest in DA:O unless you wanted to. DA:I requires you to do 124 power worth of slog if you want to finish the main story.