10 réponses à ce sujet

[Fireheart]

Ok, so I've played dragon age since the first. Dragon Age is also the first and only western rpg I have ever played. I have 4 dao pts as a mage or a warrior, in da2, i was a mage 2 times, dai my first pt mage, second as warrior. A few days ago, I decided to start a new dai playthrough as a rogue, since I never played as one before. I'm a little confused though. What is the point of a rogue? As a warrior, I have to focus on damage and protect ranged party members. As a mage, I'm good with crowd control when the warrior is being overwhelmed, I buff/debuff, and heal. So where does this leave the rogue? Most of the time in dao I never used Leli or Zev, I just had Alistair, Morrigan and Shale. In my last pt of da2, I had Anders and Fenris, and Sebastian, whom died every 10 seconds, but I kept him around because of his Scottish accent. Dai, Sera was always in my party, she was pretty good, then I tried giving Cole a shot, and he died every 5 seconds.

 

So I'm a little lost, what exactly does a rogue do? To me it seems the only real difference is the choice of weapon they use. Now, in dao it was pretty "open-ended" because a warrior could also dual wield or use bow and arrow, so to me that made playing a rogue redundant. Then in da2 and dai they made it more refined, and gave rogues their own special trees. Warriors do most of the damage and have great defense, mages are great at dealing damage, and they don't have to worry about their defense because they have stuff like barrier and fade shield, mind blast, etc. But rogues seem to be really... "soft". I never seen them do a whole lot of damage, plus they go down easily, so what is their purpose? Archer rogues seem to have some sort of cult following, I tried playing as Sera a few times, but it feels boring to me, with the long "loading and shooting" animation of using a bow and arrow, so I just don't get it. Someone please explain a rogue's role in battle and their appeal.

 

My other question: as stated I've played da since the first game, yet still to this day I don't know what "mental/physical resistance checks" are, and those other technical terms, but I've been able to get through both dao and da2 pretty easily, but now in dai, I really have to ask the question, what is the difference between dps, attack, and damage? I mean, shouldn't damage and attack be the same thing? Yet, as 2h warrior, I have some swords that say 54 aoe damage, 10% guard bonus, 5% flanking bonus, and then +2 attack? What does that mean? And then the dps is like 64? So okay, let's say an enemy has 500 health points. Does this mean 64 points will be taken away from its health, or 54 points? And how does the +2 attack factor in? Is it like 2% of 54/64 added to the initial damage/attack? Especially with rogues. I've seen some people say that archer rogues are better than DW because of the dps or something. I have so many daggers with like 200 dps, yet the bow I have equpped on Sera right now is 110 I believe? Yet the damage underneath says 134 and for one of the daggers, it's maybe 100 damage (these are just guesses, can't remember exact numbers right now), so uhhhh, wut? I know dps means damage per second, and dw rogues are obviously faster, but uh, yeah, can someone explain...

[Bigdawg13]

1)  Role of a rogue

 

Rogue serve the obvious purpose of picking locks.  Unlike past games you have a reason to bring at least one of every class if you want to be able to knock down every wall, pick every lock, and interact with magical items.  However, rogues serve another purpose.  

 

One problem with rogues in most dragon age games, is that the AI handles dual wield poorly.  Dual wield traditionally is position dependent.  The AoE attacks from enemies like giants, dragons, and bears can make short work of a rogue in this game.  So if you want to use a rogue in your party that the AI will control, make sure to spec them as an archer.  Even Cole can be made into an archer.

 

Generally most players will give the best gear to their character.  If you are not a rogue, then bring Varric as your lock picking rogue.  He boosts your parties damage and crit.  It's hard to pass up, especially if you start playing off the synergy of crit passives.  However, an AI controlled archer is never going to be amazing in DPS.  Be sure you set defensive skills to preferred (stealth, roll, fallback plan, frost flask, etc).  Also set their tactics to "follow" themself.  This prevents them from running up into melee (close range combat).

 

If you play a rogue directly, you'll find their damage far surpasses other classes.  There will always be that reaver-guy on the forums that argues with you, or the AoE mage who will claim he does more because he can AoE things.  But when it comes to picking a target and killing it quick, that's where the rogue excels.  

 

But just like the warrior who can do damage or tank, or the mage who can CC, buff, or do damage, the rogue has versatility too.  They have crowd control.  Their crowd control is valuable for cross-class combos.  So not only are they the premier single-target dps, but they synergize with your party providing crowd control, cross-class combos, and a dps boost if you take varric.  During the first half of the game, I make sure to give all AI-controlled rogues upgraded full draw and set to preferred.  This will cause sleep that lasts quite a while.  

 

I should also point out you can equip them in heavy armor if you so choose.  Just make your heavy armor with silverite and anyone can wear it (assuming no racial limits).

 

2) DPS vs damage

 

The disparity has to do with weapon speed.  The faster the weapon, the lower the damage for the same dps.  This is important to any class whose primary damage comes from abilities, because abilities scale off of weapon damage.  For example, let's say you have a weapon that does 15 damage every 3 seconds.  That's 5 dps (damage per second).  Another weapon does 5 damage every second (5 dps).  If you have a special attack (mighty blow, twin fangs, whatever) that does 100% weapon damage, it scales off of the weapon damage (not the dps).  

 

Example, imagine a templar who has wrath of heaven.  Consider a scenario where you have a 2H weapon and a 1H weapon that have the same dps.  The 2H weapon will cause more damage with wrath of heaven.  If you are a DA:O veteran you may recall different builds that either amplify "white" damage or special attacks.  That all has to do with weapon damage.  

 

This is also why you'll see such high damage % on mage attacks (like 1000% weapon damage) compared to a 2H warrior ability (300%) because the weapon damage on a staff is 3x less than that of the 2H weapon.

[Maker Be Damned]

Rogue is highest damage dealer. Rogue is best from far away with archer or behind someones back "flanking" A DW Rogue will usally stay in the shadows and wait, appear bring swift death and disappear before anything can really hit it. Both DW and Archers are great at taking out ranged attackers. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

A great rogue is a true glass cannon. They can do massive damage and, their tools are stealth, movement and, speed. The idea being not to get hit. Yes they are a tad slow getting started, a lot of dancing and not much damage at first but, that quickly changes.

 

They wear leather armor so, can take a tad more than a mage but, not much, they aren't supposed to get hit very often.

 

Archer or dual wield, you learn to dance circles around enemies, staying behind or beside them, never in front of them. WASD really are your friends if KB+M on a rogue.

 

And a well played rogue in action is a thing of beauty to watch and, a good build gets a glass cannon that's a blast to play.

[Reptillius]

In DA:O a rogue was important partly if you wanted to get all the loot. But also partly because it could be used as an excellent scout if you upgraded it's stealth as well as the once class that can remove traps. Both inside and outside of combat netting you more xp and keeping you from tripping over them and harming your own party.  It is also the primary damage dealer.  Somewhat lackluster because of AI but it has more damage dealing and advantageous passives for that than any other class.  Boosted crits, taking advantage of positioning and disabling affects for better hits.  It's most useful in the hands of a player unfortunately.  It also makes me need to ask. how are you spending your stat points on your rogues? Or are you spending your warrior stat points like you would a rogue? (technically a viable option in DA:O.)

 

In DA2 these things carry true as well but now their weapon trees are separate from the Warriors and they are one of your two ranged DPS options which can be a nice thing to have.  They are usually fairly decent at taking care of themselves unless you have them geared poorly or they ****** everything that is ranged off.  But again it's a question of how your spending your stat points on the character.  Are you trying to build them like a warrior or dumping most of your points into dex and cunning where it's useful? Giving them a bit of willpower or con as needed?

[Fireheart]

*snip*

Okay, so I have a better example. My warrior in DAI is equipped with "Axe of the Dragon Hunter", 292 dps, 228 AoE damage. The abyssal high dragon's health on nightmare is 135703. So does this mean 228 will be taken from the dragon's health? And I still don't know where attack factors in to all of this. I always just equip my party with the weapon with the highest dps I can find.

[Reptillius]

dps stands literally for damage per second. The idea of it is the amount of damage you would be doing just swinging the sword over and over based on the kind of weapon it is for how fast it can move.  For example your axe is big and moves at a rate that is just a little quicker than a second a swing. On the other hand. My mages staff can actually make two attacks in a single second so it's dps is basically twice what it's listed damage is.

 

AoE literally stands for Area of Effect.  It's literally dealing damage over a varying size area.  In the case of weapons like your axe it's within like 2 or 3 meters of your character each time you swing that weapon will have an easy time hitting most if not everybody in that area.  Otherwise it's mostly that damage against the enemy directly in front of you.

 

As for Damage itself.  Taking out all other factors that increase and lower it.  Damage on the weapon is the base amount that you would do from a single swing to another creatures health including that dragon.  In the case of the axe your talking about it would be a base number of 228.

 

However from that point on is where the math gets more complicated. There are things like the enemies armour that can lower this number and there are other factors that can increase that number.  Attack is one of them.  Now Attack does affect from some extent your ability to land the blow to do that 228 damage in that swing in the first place. But it has a second much bigger effect.  It increases that 228 by a percentage amount.

 

So if I have a 30% attack on that 228 My number is now going to read 296 instead.  And from there the math just gets really complicated so maybe somebody else will want to pick it up if you really want to know that much.  you probably don't.

[Bigdawg13]

Okay, so I have a better example. My warrior in DAI is equipped with "Axe of the Dragon Hunter", 292 dps, 228 AoE damage. The abyssal high dragon's health on nightmare is 135703. So does this mean 228 will be taken from the dragon's health? And I still don't know where attack factors in to all of this. I always just equip my party with the weapon with the highest dps I can find.

 
If you want ALL of the details, go here.
 
The equation for damage against enemies is:

final_damage = (base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))

         * (ability_multiplier)

         * (1 + critical_damage_bonus + flanking_bonus)

         * (1 + attack_bonus + damage_multiplier + type_bonus)

         * (1 - magic_resistance)

Please understand that critical damage bonus and flanking bonus only count if you crit or are flanking an enemy.

 

If we assume:

• enemy has no armor
• your weapon has a damage value of 100 (not dps)
• you have no critical chance
• a strength of 10 (base value)
• no damage multiplier from enchants
• no type bonus (comes from creature research)
• and the enemy has no magic resistance against your weapon

then you'd do 95 to 105 damage randomly with each hit.  If your swing speed is 1 second then you'd do on average, 100 dps.
 
Now let's consider something more interesting

• enemy armor is 20
• you have 10% armor penetration
• you have 20% critical chance
• you have 20% critical damage
• you're strength is 30 (another +10% attack, e.g. (30-10)*0.5)
• you have +10% attack from gear
• still no type bonus
• enemy has no resistance to your type of damage
• still doing normal attacks (not using special abilities)
• not flanking
• no damage multiplier (see linked thread for more info)

 
now it looks more like:

final_damage = (100 * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - 20 * (1 - 0.1))

         * (1.0)

         * (1 + 0.2 + 0.0)

         * (1 + 0.2 + 0.0 + 0.0)

         * (1 - 0.0) 
     = (100 * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - 18) * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.0 
     = 144 * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - 26 (for crit)
  or = 120 * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - 22 (for non-crit)

Now your damage will fluctuate (on a crit) between 110 to 133

and a non-crit would be between 92 and 104

 

tl;dr

DPS of the weapon doesn't matter.  Look at the damage. 

[Fireheart]

dps stands literally for damage per second. The idea of it is the amount of damage you would be doing just swinging the sword over and over based on the kind of weapon it is for how fast it can move.  For example your axe is big and moves at a rate that is just a little quicker than a second a swing. On the other hand. My mages staff can actually make two attacks in a single second so it's dps is basically twice what it's listed damage is.

 

AoE literally stands for Area of Effect.  It's literally dealing damage over a varying size area.  In the case of weapons like your axe it's within like 2 or 3 meters of your character each time you swing that weapon will have an easy time hitting most if not everybody in that area.  Otherwise it's mostly that damage against the enemy directly in front of you.

 

As for Damage itself.  Taking out all other factors that increase and lower it.  Damage on the weapon is the base amount that you would do from a single swing to another creatures health including that dragon.  In the case of the axe your talking about it would be a base number of 228.

 

However from that point on is where the math gets more complicated. There are things like the enemies armour that can lower this number and there are other factors that can increase that number.  Attack is one of them.  Now Attack does affect from some extent your ability to land the blow to do that 228 damage in that swing in the first place. But it has a second much bigger effect.  It increases that 228 by a percentage amount.

 

So if I have a 30% attack on that 228 My number is now going to read 296 instead.  And from there the math just gets really complicated so maybe somebody else will want to pick it up if you really want to know that much.  you probably don't.

Thanks. I still don't know what dps is, but at least I understand damage and attack now.

[Bigdawg13]

Thanks. I still don't know what dps is, but at least I understand damage and attack now.

 

dps = Damage Per Second

[Reptillius]

dps is just a rough estimate/figure of the amount of damage you can put out in a set period of time.  In this case it's on a second by second basis.  When it comes to MMO's this tends to be figured as an average number over a fight that can actually be several minutes long.  That's all it is.  In this game it's not so much to worry about.