217 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

I would like to fire Leliana and Cullen, would promote Charter and Barris.

[dongsaeng]

You want to tell me leliana is only spymaster that exists? right... i can bet there is plenty people in thedas that could replace her easily and do better her function that she is. 

I meant for the Inqusition, also we have to consider Leliana is also the Left Hand and has more experience and knowledge which makes her a stronger candidate, because of her dedication to the cause.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I meant for the Inqusition, also we have to consider Leliana is also the Left Hand and has more experience and knowledge which makes her a stronger candidate, because of her dedication to the cause.

Nothing would stop us from hiring one or just use one in inquision i hardly doubt that there are no spies in inquisition that could thake that role (and i don't mean varric)...

Weak argument when it goes agaist disobedience and pretty much threats toward superior such spymaster is pretty much horrible.

[Eliastion]

I used it twice so i don't see problem here i bet if i used "leliana is best character ever" fifteen times in these two sentences you wouldn't have problem...

 

Her disobeying order isn't bad writing as it wouldn't be bad thing how it is executed is bad writing because game don't allow us to react properly on her crap.In the end it doesn't matter because it isn't out off character and what she did and we can't react that in proper way.(...)

It was out of character because she's explicitly a competent spymaster - and that's one of her defining traits in DA:I. And a competent spymaster wouldn't do that.

The fact that the game doesn't acknowledge it properly (as in, giving you reaction appropriate for situation when your spymaster proves to be glaringly inadequate) only reinforces the notion that she's not insane as you like to put it so often, but poorly written there.

 

Also, no, using "leliana is best character ever" fifteen times in one post would be a rare proof that a post can be more blatantly biased without any attempt at accuracy than your normal ones.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It was out of character because she's explicitly a competent spymaster - and that's one of her defining traits in DA:I. And a competent spymaster wouldn't do that.

The fact that the game doesn't acknowledge it properly (as in, giving you reaction appropriate for situation when your spymaster proves to be glaringly inadequate) only reinforces the notion that she's not insane as you like to put it so often, but poorly written there.

 

Also, no, using "leliana is best character ever" fifteen times in one post would be a rare proof that a post can be more blatantly biased without any attempt at accuracy than your normal ones.

And how do you know what a competent spymaster would or wouldn't do are you spymaster? She is shown not very mentally stable and pretty much she did it once before so cleary for writers that was in-character if they did it 3 times.

 

Eee no that have no connection here it is just bad writing and don't reinforce whether she is sane or not same for talis that you are forced to stay and watch as tallis goes away with list doesn't mean that it was right choice just it was badly written.

 

Nope you wouldn't even notice but using 1 word 2 times in 2 sentences done by me yes then you would notice even pretty much it said nothing. 

[Boost32]

I meant for the Inqusition, also we have to consider Leliana is also the Left Hand and has more experience and knowledge which makes her a stronger candidate, because of her dedication to the cause.

But Leliana is a terrible spymaster. She made the call to retreat the scout and its allowed Corypheus to launch a surprise attack on Haven, there are assassins and spy infiltrated in Skyhold (House of Repose try to kill Josephine, if you side with the Qunari you get a war table mission to reveal Venatori spies infiltrated in Skyhold, if you save the Charges the Qunari infiltrate assassins) and she disobey your orders to not kill the sister (if she is steeled), she was fooled by Solas and Blackwall.
Beyond In Hushed Whisper she does nothing, I dont know why we cant fire her or punish her for her failures/insubordination.

[Dracon525]

I totally get where you're coming from, OP, but I think the developers didn't let the player eject people from the Inquisition (Sera being the notable exception) for the same reason that the Murder Knife is effectively absent. If either option existed, half of the people in the Inquisition would be fired/brutally shanked to death by the time you reached Skyhold.

Well, maybe they shouldn't write so many characters that are annoying/useless... lol

 

Just don't recruit her.
 

Its a shame she was not at the Winter Palace if your didn't recruit her.  There could have been some great dialogue about not attending her party.

So you're saying that people shouldn't role-play characters? (agree on the party dialogue though, there'd be so claws out for sure lol)

[Fiery Phoenix]

Can I fire the inquisitor?

****

 

Choked on my pizza...

[Khione]

It all comes down to what kind of person you are. I personally think she does a great job as spymaster, she's ruthless and gets the job done. Does she have to split some hairs in the process? So be it.

 

Also the part with her personal quest and Natalie: Just because you are her superior doesn't mean she has to listen to you. I don't think you were even speaking as Inquisitor at that moment since you just came with her for a retrieval, but it was assumed there would be obstacles to deal with while doing so. If she wanted to slit some throats, I won't stop her as long as it isn't mine.

 

But this isn't even a Leliana thread.

 

Whether you should be able to press the big red button and eject whoever from the Inquisition, it's a interesting idea but likely wouldn't fit well. Again, it truly depends on how you want to play the game.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It all comes down to what kind of person you are. I personally think she does a great job as spymaster, she's ruthless and gets the job done. Does she have to split some hairs in the process? So be it.

 

Also the part with her personal quest and Natalie: Just because you are her superior doesn't mean she has to listen to you. I don't think you were even speaking as Inquisitor at that moment since you just came with her for a retrieval, but it was assumed there would be obstacles to deal with while doing so. If she wanted to slit some throats, I won't stop her as long as it isn't mine.

 

But this isn't even a Leliana thread.

 

Whether you should be able to press the big red button and eject whoever from the Inquisition, it's a interesting idea but likely wouldn't fit well. Again, it truly depends on how you want to play the game.

Eee yes it exactly means she has to listen to you...

[Eliastion]

And how do you know what a competent spymaster would or wouldn't do are you spymaster? She is shown not very mentally stable and pretty much she did it once before so cleary for writers that was in-character if they did it 3 times.

 

Eee no that have no connection here it is just bad writing and don't reinforce whether she is sane or not same for talis that you are forced to stay and watch as tallis goes away with list doesn't mean that it was right choice just it was badly written.

 

Nope you wouldn't even notice but using 1 word 2 times in 2 sentences done by me yes then you would notice even pretty much it said nothing. 

I take it you either consider killing someone against direct superior's order non-idiotic OR you think a good spymaster does idiotic things, then?

 

And sorry to burst your bubble, I don't have much love for Leliana. But biased self-important comments from some dolt who decides to slap on labels attributing to writer bias what can be completely sufficiently explained by writing being not thought-out enough? Yeah, that's something I hate.

 

Leliana is explicitly a great spymaster, but then come specific actions she takes - and they are... less then stellar. Boost32 recounted them pretty neatly - but Leliana is still considered a great spymaster - it's pretty much the same thing as with whole Loghain discussion. Loghain is a great strategist and tactician, but when you take battles we know something about, they can be "Hollywood tactics" at their worst. The intention isn't that he's incompetent though, just as Leliana isn't incompetent as Spymaster - which makes it sloppy writing as writers fail to support this informed competence when it comes to actual actions shown to us.

And I'm pretty sure that if Leliana was really as beloved by writers as you think she is, they would put a bit more effort into her story and she would actually look somewhat competent without squinting really hard.

[Khione]

Eee yes it exactly means she has to listen to you...

 

Uh, no. She doesn't have to listen to anybody in all honesty. You aren't her mother and even then she wouldn't have to listen to you. In regards to if she wants to stay on her boss' good side, maybe she should listen. Still doesn't mean she has to.

[Eliastion]

Uh, no. She doesn't have to listen to anybody in all honesty. You aren't her mother and even then she wouldn't have to listen to you. In regards to if she wants to stay on her boss' good side, maybe she should listen. Still doesn't mean she has to.

Having a superior pretty much means that you have to listen to him. And this was explicitly Inquisition business. You know, the one run by the Inquisitor.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I take it you either consider killing someone against direct superior's order non-idiotic OR you think a good spymaster does idiotic things, then?

 

And sorry to burst your bubble, I don't have much love for Leliana. But biased self-important comments from some dolt who decides to slap on labels attributing to writer bias what can be completely sufficiently explained by writing being not thought-out enough? Yeah, that's something I hate.

 

Leliana is explicitly a great spymaster, but then come specific actions she takes - and they are... less then stellar. Boost32 recounted them pretty neatly - but Leliana is still considered a great spymaster - it's pretty much the same thing as with whole Loghain discussion. Loghain is a great strategist and tactician, but when you take battles we know something about, they can be "Hollywood tactics" at their worst. The intention isn't that he's incompetent though, just as Leliana isn't incompetent as Spymaster - which makes it sloppy writing as writers fail to support this informed competence when it comes to actual actions shown to us.

And I'm pretty sure that if Leliana was really as beloved by writers as you think she is, they would put a bit more effort into her story and she would actually look somewhat competent without squinting really hard.

Nope but being good with computers or something doesn't mean you won't do idiotic things or it is out-off character.

 

It is writers bias they pretty much have admited it seems nothing much but rage on your part i used 1 word in 2 sentences what is nothing more but ridiculous to be upset over using same word 2 times.  

 

So what i can be great assassin doesn't mean i can't do stupid things just because im good at killing others.We never see Loghain as strategist only time in Ostagar he is silenced by Cailan and his who needs strategy.So yes there is nothing that says that leliana disobedience is out off character.

 

 

Uh, no. She doesn't have to listen to anybody in all honesty. You aren't her mother and even then she wouldn't have to listen to you. In regards to if she wants to stay on her boss' good side, maybe she should listen. Still doesn't mean she has to.

practically you are right yes every person can refuse to follow orders but as subordinate she should and has to follow superior orders otherwise pretty much any respectable superior would punish and most likely fire such person.So no one complains about her disobeying orders rather than simple lack of proper response on her disobedience.  

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Hmm, the only person that I can think of that I'm annoyed that I couldn't get rid of is Fiona. Though she doesn't really play an important role in the Inquistion, it annoys we that she gets to loiter around my library doing **** all after I saved her ass.

She is 0% useful after the fiasco in Redcliffe. Hell, at least you get to send Barris off on war table missions and make him useful when turning to the Templars for help but Fiona? Nope, she just stands there and blabbers on about her past never even offering any useful information. GTFO Fiona!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I feel a lot better now.

[Dracon525]

Uh, no. She doesn't have to listen to anybody in all honesty. You aren't her mother and even then she wouldn't have to listen to you. In regards to if she wants to stay on her boss' good side, maybe she should listen. Still doesn't mean she has to.

Try doing this in real life and see how well that goes for you.

[Khione]

[...]

 

practically you are right yes every person can refuse to follow orders but as subordinate she should and has to follow superior orders otherwise pretty much any respectable superior would punish and most likely fire such person.So no one complains about her disobeying orders rather than simple lack of proper response on her disobedience.  

 

Ah well if that's the main issue then I do agree for those that felt it was out of line should have a better response and not just shrugging it off as "That's just Leliana." If I had a different reaction to the Natalie kill, I'd be a bit annoyed too, barely giving her a slap on the wrist.

 

Try doing this in real life and see how well that goes for you.

 

I never said it was a good idea, now did I. I'm not Leliana, I know to listen to my superior if they're being reasonable. Still, I only said she doesn't have to listen to anyone as a person, not just as an agent.

I'm sure she realizes there is a risk of being imprisoned for disobeying orders or outright killed but she probably feels the end justifies the means and will do it anyways. That my Inquisitor and I can respect and let her be.

 

 

Having a superior pretty much means that you have to listen to him. And this was explicitly Inquisition business. You know, the one run by the Inquisitor.

 

I don't recall her personal advisor quest having any benefit towards the Inquisition, though my memory might be rusty. She receives a letter from her former employer stating she left something behind for her. They aren't treaty papers, important schematics, or even useful relics that can aid the Inquisition; just an empty box with a note from one friend to another. If anything the Inquisitor was just there for support not on official business. Leliana could've gone on her own and you wouldn't even know there was one less Chantry Sister in the world.

[Eliastion]

Nope but being good with computers or something doesn't mean you won't do idiotic things or it is out-off character.

 

It is writers bias they pretty much have admited it seems nothing much but rage on your part i used 1 word in 2 sentences what is nothing more but ridiculous to be upset over using same word 2 times.

 

So what i can be great assassin doesn't mean i can't do stupid things just because im good at killing others.We never see Loghain as strategist only time in Ostagar he is silenced by Cailan and his who needs strategy.So yes there is nothing that says that leliana disobedience is out off character.

(...)

You wrote two sentences in your comment, each including "writers pet" (that's two words, btw); add that to the fact that you literally can't pass a leliana-related (even loosely related) thread to not come and whine about her being writers' favourite allegedly conferring various boons... 

 

And if you can't distinguish computer guy from assassin from spymaster, that's your problem. I personally, however, don't judge computer guy based on his ability to kill people, assassin based on his proficiency in intrigue and ability lead a continent-spanning spy network nor do I expect a spymaster in fantasy setting to have outstanding computer-programming skills.

Going by your specific example - a great assassin is definitely capable of doing stupid things, but he generally won't jump screaming on his victim and then proceed to stab his own feet with his poisoned dagger.

 

 

(...)

practically you are right yes every person can refuse to follow orders but as subordinate she should and has to follow superior orders otherwise pretty much any respectable superior would punish and most likely fire such person.So no one complains about her disobeying orders rather than simple lack of proper response on her disobedience.  

I do. It's breaking my immersion since I KNOW she's competent and then I need to deal with her doing blatantly incompetent (and stupid) things right in front of me with no proper explanation WHY she would make a blunder of this magnitude.

[Eliastion]

(...)

I don't recall her personal advisor quest having any benefit towards the Inquisition, though my memory might be rusty. She receives a letter from her former employer stating she left something behind for her. They aren't treaty papers, important schematics, or even useful relics that can aid the Inquisition; just an empty box with a note from one friend to another. If anything the Inquisitor was just there for support not on official business. Leliana could've gone on her own and you wouldn't even know there was one less Chantry Sister in the world.

Leliana explicitly killed that sister because she was supposedly a threat to Inquisition (working/spying for a revered mother opposing Inquisition).

If she was alone, it would be her call (she's the one to deal with issues like enemy spies). If Inquisitor had not intervened, it would be her call. But she does respond to Inquisitor so if he IS present and DOES intervene, the decision is no longer hers.

Having autonomy of not needing to consult every decision with superior doesn't equal prerogative to ignore orders.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You wrote two sentences in your comment, each including "writers pet" (that's two words, btw); add that to the fact that you literally can't pass a leliana-related (even loosely related) thread to not come and whine about her being writers' favourite allegedly conferring various boons... 

 

And if you can't distinguish computer guy from assassin from spymaster, that's your problem. I personally, however, don't judge computer guy based on his ability to kill people, assassin based on his proficiency in intrigue and ability lead a continent-spanning spy network nor do I expect a spymaster in fantasy setting to have outstanding computer-programming skills.

Going by your specific example - a great assassin is definitely capable of doing stupid things, but he generally won't jump screaming on his victim and then proceed to stab his own feet with his poisoned dagger.

 

 

Oh no i used 1 word 2 times in 2 different sentences tragedy just tragedy.   who is biased and whining here?

 

That is just ridiculous (well but pretty much not first time i say that talking to you...) you practically have no idea what im saying and try pass this as me comparing computer guy to spymaster or assassin while message was totally different (that being good at something doesn't mean you can't do stupid things) and probably deliberately ignored by you again.

Altair master assassin and great assassin failed his task because he decided to take his enemies in open combat.So yes being good at something doesn't mean you can't do stupid things even in that thing you are good. So i fail to see how leliana can't do something stupid and irrational just because she is good at gathering information.

 

In fact she was a bard and yet was screwd by marjolaine in epic way.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I understand why we can't fire advisors. They are too vital to the main plot, and appear in many optional cutscenes to boot, and it means redoing all their War Table text. 

 

But I think more companions than Sera should have had an option to kick them out, all of them in fact apart from Cassandra and Solas who are more plot essential. 

[KaiserShep]

It'd be funny to be able to fire advisers, and have the Inquisition deteriorate because there's no way to properly substitute these people. You can't just quickly hire a new spymaster, or just replace the commander of the Inquisition's forces, and Josephine is pretty much the one every important Joe and Jane correspond with, not the Inquisitor. I also doubt that Cassandra would just go along with this nonsense. It would probably spiral into its own time-consuming subplot, and it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

I understand why we can't fire advisors. They are too vital to the main plot, and appear in many optional cutscenes to boot, and it means redoing all their War Table text. 

 

But I think more companions than Sera should have had an option to kick them out, all of them in fact apart from Cassandra and Solas who are more plot essential. 

 

Honestly, Solas is only really crucial to the plot to the point of helping the Inquisitor find Skyhold. I don't really recall anything after that that makes him vital to keep around. He can just as well reappear at the end when Corypheus is beaten, and just have some alternate dialogue if he left or you kicked him out.

[Eliastion]

Oh no i used 1 word 2 times in 2 different sentences tragedy just tragedy.   who is biased and whining here?
 
That is just ridiculous (well but pretty much not first time i say that talking to you...) you practically have no idea what im saying(...)

That makes the two of us, then.
 
 

(...)and try pass this as me comparing computer guy to spymaster or assassin while message was totally different (that being good at something doesn't mean you can't do stupid things) and probably deliberately ignored by you again.

Altair master assassin and great assassin failed his task because he decided to take his enemies in open combat.So yes being good at something doesn't mean you can't do stupid things even in that thing you are good.(...)

Or it means that writers of video games suck at writing assassins. Sure, people can fail the task at hand or be bested by someone in their own field, but first of all - one would assume some limit when it comes to screwing up (I did include the part about stabbing himself with poisoned dagger, didn't I?) and Leliana, as recounted by Boost32, makes a couple other a little less obvious but still glaring mistakes.
And then there's the fact that Leliana's actions seem to be supposed ruthless rather than irrational - it just doesn't work this way.

But, who am I even trying to talk to. Obviously when people randomly catch idiot ball it must be about those nasty writers having pets! And obviously they fully intend their pets to behave like maddened idiots and then they deliberately take away players' ability to respond appropriately. Because, obviously, their main reason for writing these characters is to show that no matter how stupid or incompetent they appear, we can't do anything to them!
By no means could it be simple lack of consideration for some aspects of NPC's behavior and how it might look to the player. That would be ridiculous, right?

[Wulfram]

It'd be funny to be able to fire advisers, and have the Inquisition deteriorate because there's no way to properly substitute these people. You can't just quickly hire a new spymaster, or just replace the commander of the Inquisition's forces, and Josephine is pretty much the one every important Joe and Jane correspond with, not the Inquisitor. I also doubt that Cassandra would just go along with this nonsense. It would probably spiral into its own time-consuming subplot, and it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

 
The Inquisition doesn't really need a spymaster after Leliana's quest, though. We've done all the plotting. And moving the scouts under Cullen's command would just make the Inquisition's command structure a bit more sane.
 

Honestly, Solas is only really crucial to the plot to the point of helping the Inquisitor find Skyhold. I don't really recall anything after that that makes him vital to keep around. He can just as well reappear at the end when Corypheus is beaten, and just have some alternate dialogue if he left or you kicked him out.

Even Cassandra seems to fade from plot relevance after reaching Skyhold. Aside from the election, anyway.

[KaiserShep]

 
The Inquisition doesn't really need a spymaster after Leliana's quest, though. We've done all the plotting. And moving the scouts under Cullen's command would just make the Inquisition's command structure a bit more sane.

 

Point is, kicking out advisers is an infeasible option. There's just no way that the Inquisitor should have the power to get rid of any of the founding members of the Inquisition without some serious consequences. It seems to me that the only way an attempt to get rid of Leliana would be to kill her, since she has every reason to refuse. Getting rid of Leliana should automatically result in Josephine's departure, and possibly Cassandra's as well. Regardless of what the Inquisitor may think of this lot, they got the ball rolling before they even knew who this joker out of the Fade was. Would Cullen stick around now that the people he started the organization with are gone? Who knows? But beyond the gameplay aspect of it, the Inquisition itself would be up ****'s creek. It just seems like it would be something that should make the story go off the rails, rather than just have every NPC be doormats that just take whatever you dish to them.