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[Wulfram]

Would Josephine and Cassandra really stand up for Leliana's right to ignore orders and murder defenseless people? Seems out of character for them.

The Divine said "the Left Hand should lay down her burden". Would Cassandra ignore Justinia's wishes? Would Josephine stand against the Inquisitor's last desperate attempt to save Leliana's soul from darkness?

edit: Of course, a simpler solution would be to have hardened Leliana still obey orders, thus removing the really compelling cause to fire her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 Or it means that writers of video games suck at writing assassins. Sure, people can fail the task at hand or be bested by someone in their own field, but first of all - one would assume some limit when it comes to screwing up (I did include the part about stabbing himself with poisoned dagger, didn't I?) and Leliana, as recounted by Boost32, makes a couple other a little less obvious but still glaring mistakes.
And then there's the fact that Leliana's actions seem to be supposed ruthless rather than irrational - it just doesn't work this way.

But, who am I even trying to talk to. Obviously when people randomly catch idiot ball it must be about those nasty writers having pets! And obviously they fully intend their pets to behave like maddened idiots and then they deliberately take away players' ability to respond appropriately. Because, obviously, their main reason for writing these characters is to show that no matter how stupid or incompetent they appear, we can't do anything to them!
By no means could it be simple lack of consideration for some aspects of NPC's behavior and how it might look to the player. That would be ridiculous, right?

Or you just have no idea what you are saying.Your example is ridiculous in first place (it is just stupidtity on completely different level) because it doesn't even compare to my example and prime example of leliana disobeying orders what absolutely don't have to do anything with with her being good at her job.Boost32 says she may not be all that good as she is painted by companions that praise her to havens (pretty much another clue she is writers pet).

Oh how do you know what leliana actions supposed to be are you her writer? In first place ruthless don't exclude irrational by any means.And again being good at something doesn't mean you can't made mistakes or even outright stupid things.  

 

And again completely don't know what i was talking about and yet try mock me and well it went as always badly.In first place that she is writer pet is far more complex and goes beyond that pretty much she have enormous plot armor and can do crap without consequences.That character screws up doesn't mean they can't be writers pet in first place because aizen was one and he had screws up. 

[KennethAFTopp]

this doesn't quite fit here, but I was kinda annoyed how you hired Vivienne, mostly with the others you had like four options two to say no, and one excited and positive t say yes and one a bit more suspicious but with Vivienne you say: "We would be delighted to have you vivenne." when I would rather have said; "Sure you can join, I don't like the cut of your jib, and if you step outta line I am gonna shank your snooty ass."

[FadelessRipley]

Look, even Morrigan is impressed by Leliana's spy network that she's built. 'Nuff said. 

 

I'm not interested in getting into a massive row - some people are determined to hate Leliana because of her "writer's pet status" (seriously, she's my favourite character in the series and even I think she needs better writing in places!), so we'll just go around in circles as has been done on countless other threads. Which floats some people's boats, so cool.   Others have valid criticisms, so let's focus on those.

 

I think the mechanics for softening her are very clumsy (as she is hardened by default). AFAIK if you don't talk her out of killing Butler, you're pretty much screwed. She might be pissed off, but she does obey. You can also convince her to spare Natalie, however I believe it requires 100% consistent "soft" dialogue choices. Which to my mind is daft. You may, in the interests of being a leader in wartime, have felt that your men at Haven were expendable, and I don't think that necessarily makes you a monster. However killing Natalie is nigh on impossible to justify, yet if you haven't made enough soft choices, she goes ahead and does so. That, IMO, is bad writing. 

 

I've said before I don't think Leliana's ruthless nature is completely nonsensical when you consider what the character has been doing for the last decade. She's slowly losing herself and becoming harder as a person. Considering that her mentor and dearest friend outside of the Warden (if you were friend/lover to her) just got blown up and the world is falling apart, I think you can understand her being a bit of an emotional wreck. I think the actual writing of that path of her arc is too extreme. A ruthless pragmatist is necessary and justifiable in a war situation. However, Leliana's actions are at times irrational, for sure. 

 

Practically speaking, based on the characters we know of in the actual DA universe, she's the best Spymaster option you have. Of course there may be some mystery person out there that is ten times better, but there isn't much point in those vague hypotheticals. Also, as co-founder of the Inquisition, she likely can't be kicked out. I couldn't see Cassandra standing for that either. 

[Boost32]

Practically speaking, based on the characters we know of in the actual DA universe, she's the best Spymaster option you have. Of course there may be some mystery person out there that is ten times better, but there isn't much point in those vague hypotheticals. Also, as co-founder of the Inquisition, she likely can't be kicked out. I couldn't see Cassandra standing for that either.

She might be a good spymaster, but the game doesn't show it. Spies and assassins roam Skyhold unchecked, solas and Blackwall fooled her, her actions led to Haven being destroyed, etc.
I dont remember a single time that the game showed me she was a good spymaster.

[Eliastion]

Or you just have no idea what you are saying.Your example is ridiculous in first place (it is just stupidtity on completely different level) because it doesn't even compare to my example and prime example of leliana disobeying orders what absolutely don't have to do anything with with her being good at her job.

It has everything to do with her being good at her job. Your inability to see that is what's ridiculous.
 

Boost32 says she may not be all that good as she is painted by companions that praise her to havens (pretty much another clue she is writers pet).

 

And Loghain is writers' pet because he's said to be a great strategist and tactician despite his tactics, when presented, making no sense. Sure.
 

Oh how do you know what leliana actions supposed to be are you her writer?

 

I know that because she's consistently described in-world as competent and while some people question her methods, they never question her competence. Oh, sorry, I forgot it's a "proof" of her being writers pet, right.
 

In first place ruthless don't exclude irrational by any means.And again being good at something doesn't mean you can't made mistakes or even outright stupid things.

 

Go play through this one more time, rage for another 5 minutes at how you can't kick her out or even kill on the spot - and then ask yourself whether it was a mistake that could happen to competent spymaster.
 

And again completely don't know what i was talking about and yet try mock me and well it went as always badly.In first place that she is writer pet is far more complex and goes beyond that pretty much she have enormous plot armor and can do crap without consequences.That character screws up doesn't mean they can't be writers pet in first place because aizen was one and he had screws up.

 

I don't try to mock you, to the contrary: I try to stop myself but it's kinda difficult reading all that nonsense that appears with your nick attached to it.

Like using another fictional videogame character from another game as "proof" that stupid things Leliana does are in fact intended to be as ridiculously stupid as they came out to be. I didn't play AC, so I won't judge that character. Perhaps he had as sloppy writing as Leliana in her personal quest.

Though unless he stabbed himself at least once, I doubt it.

[ctd757]

She does not have to be hard. Yiu can make her sift without murder. I do wonder why we can let go Sera pretty much anytime.

[FadelessRipley]

She does not have to be hard. Yiu can make her sift without murder. I do wonder why we can let go Sera pretty much anytime.

 

Yes, you can of course, and I always do. The point is IMO that they should allow for one or two different choices without it completely switching track. AFAIK the only way to spare Natalie is 100% consistent "soft" choices. It should be more like, say, Hawke's personality in DA2 for example, although on smaller scale obviously as Leliana is an NPC here. Your very first dialogue choice sets the default of the three, and subsequent choices stack after that. So if you have a humorous Hawke like I did for example, having one or two diplomatic or aggressive choices won't flip her (or his) overall personality on its head.

[Akkos]

They shouldn't have made the Inquisitor, leader of the Inquisition from the beginning.

[ctd757]

I see your point. It does seem like she either goes hard ir soft no in between. But I personally think she likes being hard. From Origins sge said she liked the Game and being a spy so I knew she was going to get harder

[TheKomandorShepard]

First fix that because it is mess.

Second No it doesn't being good at killing people , gathering information or as i said computers doesn't mean you have to be obedient and can't be disobedient if something is ridiculous it is that you can't comprehend simple truth.

 

And again with your bs that even don't refer to what i have said just to small fraction of it to make what i have said look stupid.First of all loghain is pretty much stated to be brilliant strategist and that is all we don't have every character telling us how loghain is genius , sexy or terrifying every time his person is brought up , second as i said we never see loghain as strategist nor he failed as strategist.

 

 

Oh god you don't know what you are saying and don't even listen... just because person is good at something as i said doesn't mean they can't do stupid things or make mistakes.This is comical that i have to even explain that.

 

 

And no there is no something as perefect person that don't make mistakes people do stupid crap for a many reasons she pulled out scouts because she was concered about them stupid decision sure but she let emotions take over her and pretty much fits she isn't very mentally stable.Would i excuse that no does that mean leliana woudln't do it just because she is good at handling network of spies no it doesn't. Same as threatening your superior is stupid doesn't mean she wouldn't do that just because she is good at handling spy network.

So yes she does a lot of crap that should get her kicked doesn't mean she wouldn't do that just because she is good at something...

So yes (again) that she knows how to handle spynetwork doesn't mean she don't have mental problems.

 

I won't even comment on that.

[FadelessRipley]

I see your point. It does seem like she either goes hard ir soft no in between. But I personally think she likes being hard. From Origins sge said she liked the Game and being a spy so I knew she was going to get harder

Yes. She's always had a very grey personality, or perhaps I should say morality despite being ultimately a good person IMO. Choosing to try and guide her to lean more towards one side than the other makes sense. It's just the hard part feels clunky at times, and a bit too extreme to me. 

[Wulfram]

She might be a good spymaster, but the game doesn't show it. Spies and assassins roam Skyhold unchecked, solas and Blackwall fooled her, her actions led to Haven being destroyed, etc.
I dont remember a single time that the game showed me she was a good spymaster.

Well, she manages to infiltrate forces into Redcliffe castle and into the Winter Palace. That's pretty snazzy.

[Eliastion]

First fix that because it is mess.
Second No it doesn't being good at killing people , gathering information or as i said computers doesn't mean you have to be obedient and can't be disobedient if something is ridiculous it is that you can't comprehend simple truth.

How difficult is it to grasp a difference between an assassin and head of intelligence agency?
 

And again with your bs that even don't refer to what i have said just to small fraction of it to make what i have said look stupid

No, that part you do all on your own.

First of all loghain is pretty much stated to be brilliant strategist

as is Leliana stated to be great spymaster.

(...)and that is all we don't have every character telling us how loghain is genius , sexy or terrifying every time his person is brought up , second as i said we never see loghain as strategist nor he failed as strategist.

Yes we do, yes he did and I'm starting to think we played two different DA:O and two different DA:I.
 

Oh god you don't know what you are saying and don't even listen... just because person is good at something as i said doesn't mean they can't do stupid things or make mistakes.This is comical that i have to even explain that.

Part of being good at something is not doing dumb enough mistakes related directly to your supposed field of expertise.
 

And no there is no something as perefect person that don't make mistakes people do stupid crap for a many reasons she pulled out scouts because she was concered about them stupid decision sure but she let emotions take over her and pretty much fits she isn't very mentally stable. Would i excuse that no does that mean leliana woudln't do it just because she is good at handling network of spies no it doesn't. Same as threatening your superior is stupid doesn't mean she wouldn't do that just because she is good at handling spy network.
So yes she does a lot of crap that should get her kicked doesn't mean she wouldn't do that just because she is good at something...
So yes (again) that she knows how to handle spynetwork doesn't mean she don't have mental problems.

Read what you wrote again and be amazed by how stupid it is. Hint: leading an intelligence agency along with being a professional spy yourself isn't something you can do if you openly disregard orders in a way that should cost you your position right on the spot.

Either way, that's another thread derailed because I got into discussion, if it can be even called that, with you. So I think I'll just end this here, seeing as you're apparently incapable of understanding reasoning following the (in my opinion pretty simple) pattern:
she's portrayed as competent spymaster AND appears glaringly incompetent which is not acknowledged in any way => there are problems with her writing and she was not, in fact, supposed to appear incompetent
So, have a nice day, I won't respond to any additional nonsense you're likely to respond with.

[TheKomandorShepard]

How difficult is it to grasp a difference between an assassin and head of intelligence agency?
 
No, that part you do all on your own.

as is Leliana stated to be great spymaster.

Yes we do, yes he did and I'm starting to think we played two different DA:O and two different DA:I.
 
Part of being good at something is not doing dumb enough mistakes related directly to your supposed field of expertise.
 
Read what you wrote again and be amazed by how stupid it is. Hint: leading an intelligence agency along with being a professional spy yourself isn't something you can do if you openly disregard orders in a way that should cost you your position right on the spot.

Either way, that's another thread derailed because I got into discussion, if it can be even called that, with you. So I think I'll just end this here, seeing as you're apparently incapable of understanding reasoning following the (in my opinion pretty simple) pattern:
she's portrayed as competent spymaster AND appears glaringly incompetent which is not acknowledged in any way => there are problems with her writing and she was not, in fact, supposed to appear incompetent
So, have a nice day, I won't respond to any additional nonsense you're likely to respond with.

 

Not very but considering that you fail over and over and over again comprehend the simplest concept that im not comparing assassin to computer guy or computer guy to spymaster but state simple fact that being good at something doesn't mean you can't make stupid or bad decisions whether you are plumber or president.What is hilarious and well at the same time tragic that i pretty pointed and explained that already and yet you go with that crap again what also shows that you can't be reasoned with.

 

Nice try to provoke me and shows you rage at this point.

 

And you have +1 point to again taking small part of argument and responding on it instead on whole

 

No we don't loghain in fact is rarely complimented in dao but again i argue with you , and no he didn't fail from what i remember he left ostagar.

 

Being good at something means that you are capable of doing something and you have knowledge on that topic so yes as i said you can be good with computers but you still can do something stupid like punch your boss in the face because <put reason here>.

 

Haha you say as if spies including talented ones never turned against their employers because if they were hired as spies they would be fired in first place.As i said being good at managing network of spies doesn't mean that you are obedient or loyal and i have to say leliana knows what she is doing in term of handling spynetwork but she is horrible subordinate for reason i have mentioned.   

 

She is portrayed as competent spymaster so what as i said she does know how use her spynetwork doesn't mean as i said she can't take stupid decision for example while being under the influence of emotions or that she can't be brazen to her boss and yet handle spynetwork.

[Raiil]

Companions, yes. Advisors, no.

 

You are the 'head' of the Inquisition, you are not the only leader of it. And to be frank no Inquisitor is realistically in the position to take over Leliana, Cullen or Josephine's positions. No advisor has the background or the experience to do their jobs. A human warrior/rogue or a dwarf may have some practical knowledge, but nothing on the lines of working for the Divine. They predate you and finding someone to do their jobs is problematic. No one else in the Inquisition can step up and in Leliana's case, that's her spy network and she can take a great deal of it with her. That network was hers before the game started.

[FadelessRipley]

Companions, yes. Advisors, no.

 

You are the 'head' of the Inquisition, you are not the only leader of it. And to be frank no Inquisitor is realistically in the position to take over Leliana, Cullen or Josephine's positions. No advisor has the background or the experience to do their jobs. A human warrior/rogue or a dwarf may have some practical knowledge, but nothing on the lines of working for the Divine. They predate you and finding someone to do their jobs is problematic. No one else in the Inquisition can step up and in Leliana's case, that's her spy network and she can take a great deal of it with her. That network was hers before the game started.

Such sense, many valid. WOW. (absolutely not sarcasm, +1 Raiil. )

[Khione]

 

Leliana explicitly killed that sister because she was supposedly a threat to Inquisition (working/spying for a revered mother opposing Inquisition).

If she was alone, it would be her call (she's the one to deal with issues like enemy spies). If Inquisitor had not intervened, it would be her call. But she does respond to Inquisitor so if he IS present and DOES intervene, the decision is no longer hers.

Having autonomy of not needing to consult every decision with superior doesn't equal prerogative to ignore orders.

 

Again, the main issue here for the majority seems to be her ability to disobey your orders of "Don't kill her" which I admit is bad writing on BW's end. I feel the better options would've been "Kill Natalie" or "Imprison Natalie" and considering the way they wrote Leliana, she could've sufficed with the latter as well as Murder Knifing her.

 

 

Bringing it back around I can only reiterate what most have said already but firing your advisors is too much power to give the player. Inquisition would easily fall apart despite how capable you think your Inquisitor is. Companions could easily be given the boot but probably would prevent you getting rid of your first 3 (Solas, Cassandra, Varric) so you don't break the game.

[Raiil]

Such sense, many valid. WOW. (absolutely not sarcasm, +1 Raiil. )

 

 

Aw, shucks, thanks.

 

Trust me, I had to dig deep for validation, because as a person while I agree with a lot of her views, I don't like Leliana. Bu I acknowledge that she's there for a reason, and you have to figure she's good at it, because in my world state she got the job despite the fact that my Warden refused to bring her along. Obviously she has something going for her if Doreatha found her competent enough to make her left hand without her being a companion of the Warden.

 

Also, as an aside to everyone looking for fainting couches over the Sister Natalie situation, do you really think that Leliana asks for your advice on every matter? Most of her actual job is due to stuff you'll never deal with, and there is nothing that states that she needs your approval for anything. Most of the time she's merely offering a solution (ala wartables) where several are available. The spymaster doesn't look for your nod any more than Cullen does in how he trains his troops or how Josie deals with nobles, they simply offer options in certain elements.

[FadelessRipley]

Aw, shucks, thanks.

 

Trust me, I had to dig deep for validation, because as a person while I agree with a lot of her views, I don't like Leliana. Bu I acknowledge that she's there for a reason, and you have to figure she's good at it, because in my world state she got the job despite the fact that my Warden refused to bring her along. Obviously she has something going for her if Doreatha found her competent enough to make her left hand without her being a companion of the Warden.

Well the reason Dorothea picked her is apparent if you've played Leliana's Song, I should think. I'm the opposite - Leliana is my favourite character but I disagree with a lot of her intentions/actions in Inquisition. Stop breaking my heart, Leli!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Companions, yes. Advisors, no.

 

You are the 'head' of the Inquisition, you are not the only leader of it. And to be frank no Inquisitor is realistically in the position to take over Leliana, Cullen or Josephine's positions. No advisor has the background or the experience to do their jobs. A human warrior/rogue or a dwarf may have some practical knowledge, but nothing on the lines of working for the Divine. They predate you and finding someone to do their jobs is problematic. No one else in the Inquisition can step up and in Leliana's case, that's her spy network and she can take a great deal of it with her. That network was hers before the game started.

Eee yes you are after all you are head and main leader of inquisition when leliana , cullen and josephine handle certain branches of the inquisition you are leader of that all and they are your subordinates so they could be removed.

[Raiil]

Eee yes you are after all you are head and main leader of inquisition when leliana , cullen and josephine handle certain branches of the inquisition you are leader of that all and they are your subordinates so they could be removed.

 

 

Eee, no. You are the figurehead and head errand boy/girl for the Inquisition. You are also not the person who made them Inquisitor, your advisors did.

 

They predate you and they actually run the bulk of the Inquisition, with or without your approval.

 

You are not the only leader of the Inquisition, and you don't have ultimate job security. Your mark is important, but you yourself are bolstered by the love of the people and that love can disappear quickly when you make incompetent choices and damage the Inquisition because ermaged I'm wearing the big boy boss pants now.

 

The Inquisition would not last without them and so the game presumes you're intelligent enough not to shoot yourself in the foot.

[FadelessRipley]

Eee yes you are after all you are head and main leader of inquisition when leliana , cullen and josephine handle certain branches of the inquisition you are leader of that all and they are your subordinates so they could be removed.

That would be a coup of sorts, no? The Inquisition is a Chantry Institution, given validation by Justinia's writ. As her Left & Right Hands, Leliana and Cassandra had the authority to launch it. Given that the Chantry is in such disarray that they're looking to these two for a candidate for next Divine, they're pretty much the highest functioning Chantry authority at the moment. 

 

Yes they chose the Inquisitor to lead the Inquisition because of all that Herald of Andraste business. So I suppose you technically could. One would want to be RPing some seriously confident and egotistical IQ to do so, though. Which hey, is fine!

 

I genuinely don't see any viable replacement for the three advisors with the characters we have, with the exception of Cassandra perhaps being able to take over from Cullen. Leliana doesn't have a viable replacement, and perhaps if you never make use of her on the War Table missions coupled with hating her in-game choices, I guess maybe she is redundant. For my playthrough I strike a fine balance between the three on the War ops, and I see her as being a fine spymaster overall. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Eee, no. You are the figurehead and head errand boy/girl for the Inquisition. You are also not the person who made them Inquisitor, your advisors did.

 

They predate you and they actually run the bulk of the Inquisition, with or without your approval.

 

You are not the only leader of the Inquisition, and you don't have ultimate job security. Your mark is important, but you yourself are bolstered by the love of the people and that love can disappear quickly when you make incompetent choices and damage the Inquisition because ermaged I'm wearing the big boy boss pants now.

 

The Inquisition would not last without them and so the game presumes you're intelligent enough not to shoot yourself in the foot.

Not rly unless we speak about time until haven destruction ,after that you are leader of the inquisition and person that people follow before that you were pretty much figurehead.

 

Nope while they run it whole inquisition responds to the inquisitor.

 

You have ultimate job security so does solas and morrigan if she used well not only you have only mean to save the day but also you are seen as messiah in the end people in inquisition respond and are loyal to herald that they are following.

 

Inquisition would last without them they aren't irreplaceable unless they are only people that are diplomats ,soldiers or spies what is doubtful.

 

 

That would be a coup of sorts, no? The Inquisition is a Chantry Institution, given validation by Justinia's writ. As her Left & Right Hands, Leliana and Cassandra had the authority to launch it. Given that the Chantry is in such disarray that they're looking to these two for a candidate for next Divine, they're pretty much the highest functioning Chantry authority at the moment. 

 

Yes they chose the Inquisitor to lead the Inquisition because of all that Herald of Andraste business. So I suppose you technically could. One would want to be RPing some seriously confident and egotistical IQ to do so, though. Which hey, is fine!

 

I genuinely don't see any viable replacement for the three advisors with the characters we have, with the exception of Cassandra perhaps being able to take over from Cullen. Leliana doesn't have a viable replacement, and perhaps if you never make use of her on the War Table missions coupled with hating her in-game choices, I guess maybe she is redundant. For my playthrough I strike a fine balance between the three on the War ops, and I see her as being a fine spymaster overall. 

Inquisition isn't chantry instution and in fact never was chantry even condemned inquisition , inquisition was started that way then you become leader of it and people follow you not chantry or Justinia.

 

Every of them can be replaced as i said i doubt they are only people in thedas that have knowledge in that matters.

[FadelessRipley]

Not rly unless we speak about time until haven destruction ,after that you are leader of the inquisition and person that people follow before that you were pretty much figurehead.

 

Nope while they run it whole inquisition responds to the inquisitor.

 

You have ultimate job security so does solas and morrigan if she used well not only you have only mean to save the day but also you are seen as messiah in the end people in inquisition respond and are loyal to herald that they are following.

 

Inquisition would last without them they aren't irreplaceable unless they are only people that are diplomats ,soldiers or spies what is doubtful.

 

 

Inquisition isn't chantry instution and in fact never was chantry even condemned inquisition , inquisition was started that way then you become leader of it and people follow you not chantry or Justinia.

 

Every of them can be replaced as i said i doubt they are only people in thedas that have knowledge in that matters.

I meant the ability to start a new Inquisition - the fact Roderick wasn't willing to accept Justinia's writ posthumously and the Chantry is currently in chaos is why there was opposition. 

 

"Every of them can be replaced as i said i doubt they are only people in thedas that have knowledge in that matters."

 

No character is irreplaceable. But in the context of the characters we have and know of, who could have replaced any of them? It's constrained by story as much as anything. Let's say you could sack Leliana, or even kill her as I'm sure many wanted to. Who would replace her? Bringing some random master spymaster that we've never even met wouldn't be a good narrative fit, IMO. What if you sacked all three? You'd have three new advisors that we have no connection to and that haven't been established, but so-and-so somewhere says they're an excellent spymaster/tactical genius/amazing diplomat! That just wouldn't work for the story.