217 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Eh, not really.  Inquisitor is 30ish, they've probably spent 10 years in their profession.  Leliana only started being a spymaster in 9:34 at the earliest - you can count her previous bardic experience if you like, but that's maybe 8 years and still wouldn't take you to "far more".  Cullen's barely done any proper soldiering, and anyway was a noob Templar 10 years ago.  Josephine is most likely younger than the Inquisitor.

 

You can say they're good at the job if you want, but they're not experienced.

Writer said that Josephine is 27-29 so i wouldn't say she was necessarily younger than inquisitor.And all of them save for cullen have some experience in their work but yeah probably less than 10 years.

[Raiil]

Advisors that were recruited from another organizations as i said nothing would stop me from doing that or just search among free like marjolene.Cullen left from what i remember when he joined inquisition before than he was still templar in kirkwall that was helping restore order in kirkwall.

 

Hardly briala is said to be very competent spymaster and lacks leliana issues when considering that marjolaine had contants in ferelden as well so yes she definitely had familiarity on that topic not mention there is plenty as i said other people like briala or marjolaine. 

 

As i said those aren't leliana spies those are inquisition spies and those spies are members of the inquisition that leliana commands them don't make them hers as soldiers that serve under orlesian commander don't belong to commander only to orlesian army that commander serves.

She don't have to hand me them over they already serve me as members of the inquisition where im leader of this organisation and leliana only oversees spynetwork as member of the inquisition.Also you wouldn't need wait for replacement as i said i doubt inquisition have no spies that couldn't handle this position also with knowing more or less what going on somone already mentioned one of such members.

 

Disobedience and threats from subordinates isn't something that leader by any way should tolerate or even is tolerated in fact pretty much leliana would end executed in most cases for doing such crap. 

 

And thus you are ignoring the point that in doing so, you are trying to prop them up when you have zero guarentee and little chance that they will know what Leliana's longterm goals for all her scouts and spies are. You cannot just swap spymasters, even if you could keep all their scouts and spies, and expect them to look at the current situation and reasonably expect them to understand what the long game is.

 

Oh, you want Briala? She's a damn murderer too, and she sides with the elves.  You want a freelancer like Marjolaine? The one who turned on her country? Explain how you're going to convince Briala and her spy ring to scatter across Thedas from Orlais in enough time to plant themselves in places like Tevinter and Nevarra. You think Briala is going to stay her hand when she happily murders ambassadors because what, you said so? 

 

Cullen left the Templars and pledged himself to the Inquisition, and stayed with it when it effectively split from Chantry. As did Josephine and Leliana. They proved their usefulness, loyalty and assistance before you ever rolled up on the scene.

 

And yeah, you keep saying that you're so sure there are spies in the Inquisition who could step into Leliana's shoes, but you give no names. Charter is a name mentioned, if Leliana becomes Divine, but even then she has to be eased into the position- Leliana doesn't just get up and go, but is going to spend weeks or months getting her caught up on everything because only Leliana has all the information.

 

 

No. They should do their best to preserve their hard work, rather than sabotaging it out of pure spite as you advocate. And they should respect the leader they chose
Also, they should remember that they're not immortal. If a single knife can cripple a major segment of the Inquisition, that's a big problem. Hence why a clear chain of command, and mechanisms to pass a spy network on to a successor, are necessary.


Heeding your advisors is good. So is replacing your advisers if they've gone crazy and started murdering people against your wishes. Or perhaps if they were previously complicit in the mass slaughter of men, women and children.

 

It's not a matter of spite. It's of trust, and the fact that in order to do a proper handoff, you'd need a few weeks at minimum in the case of Cullen, and more in the case of Leliana and Josephine, which come with the double problem that part of their usefulness is personal- Josephine is a noble and a natural diplomat and Leliana has been floating in and out of the game for years, and has a good working understanding of the Chantry, if not as personal as Mother Giselle's.

 

Also, for Leliana's quest? You're going as a favour to her. You're not there as her boss, but as a friend.

[ThePhoenixKing]

If a glorified prison guard like Cullen can do the job, I don't think the Inquisition forces commander needs all that much military experience.

 

Yeah, as much as I actually kinda liked Cullen this time around, Bioware's efforts to make him a high-fantasy version of Eisenhower came across as pretty laughable. Being the second-in-command of a glorified concentration camp doesn't make you a strategic military genius.

 

And for what it's worth, I think Leliana did a pretty good job as Spymaster. At least she tries to do a good job, and a lot of her failings in the role (for example, not figuring out that Solas isn't who he said he was) can be written off as poor storytelling resulting from the liberal passes of the Idiot Ball the game needed in order to make the story function. And why the hell would you get rid of Leliana, when there are a plethora of other characters in the game who are far more useless/annoying? You'd think someone like Sera or Vivienne would be on the chopping block long before the woman who runs a continent-spanning intelligence network.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And thus you are ignoring the point that in doing so, you are trying to prop them up when you have zero guarentee and little chance that they will know what Leliana's longterm goals for all her scouts and spies are. You cannot just swap spymasters, even if you could keep all their scouts and spies, and expect them to look at the current situation and reasonably expect them to understand what the long game is.

 

Oh, you want Briala? She's a damn murderer too, and she sides with the elves.  You want a freelancer like Marjolaine? The one who turned on her country? Explain how you're going to convince Briala and her spy ring to scatter across Thedas from Orlais in enough time to plant themselves in places like Tevinter and Nevarra. You think Briala is going to stay her hand when she happily murders ambassadors because what, you said so? 

 

Cullen left the Templars and pledged himself to the Inquisition, and stayed with it when it effectively split from Chantry. As did Josephine and Leliana. They proved their usefulness, loyalty and assistance before you ever rolled up on the scene.

 

And yeah, you keep saying that you're so sure there are spies in the Inquisition who could step into Leliana's shoes, but you give no names. Charter is a name mentioned, if Leliana becomes Divine, but even then she has to be eased into the position- Leliana doesn't just get up and go, but is going to spend weeks or months getting her caught up on everything because only Leliana has all the information

 

As i said im pretty sure leliana isn't only person that have info on what is going on in inquisition not mention it isn't long-term conflict in first place conflict was rather short-term so no need for urge long-term plans just knowledge about spies and operations that are in reports like in war table. 

 

Well you know pretty much sure that spymaster in inquisition deals with assassinations so well lets say that my spymaster is murderer isn't problem for me.To be honest that isn't problem i would even buy her loyalty with that.And yes as i said she will listen to me if bought her loyalty. .Marjolaine is trickier i wouldn't rather trust her and in fact i wouldn't have hire her in first place but she was an example that there are people that have skills.How by simple fact briala would have access not only to her current spynetwork but also to inquisition spynetwork so well...

 

Yes cullen left templars when he was recruited as any person can? Josephine in first place wasn't tied to chantry and cullen was tied to templars and they didn't prove their loyalty in first place inquisition barely existed before inquistor came on the stage and only thing they did was serching for hawke and the warden and cullen was recruited after that possible josephine as well.

 

I gave you name well somone else did it but as i said leliana is hardly only one person that can be spymaster in fact it would take just talented spy pretty much that how leliana became spymaster in first place.Hardly as i said reports. 

[Raiil]

As i said im pretty sure leliana isn't only person that have info on what is going on in inquisition not mention it isn't long-term conflict in first place conflict was rather short-term so no need for urge long-term plans just knowledge about spies and operations that are in reports like in war table. 

 

Well you know pretty much sure that spymaster in inquisition deals with assassinations so well lets say that my spymaster is murderer isn't problem for me.To be honest that isn't problem i would even buy her loyalty with that.And yes as i said she will listen to me if bought her loyalty. .Marjolaine is trickier i wouldn't rather trust her and in fact i wouldn't have hire her in first place but she was an example that there are people that have skills.How by simple fact briala would have access not only to her current spynetwork but also to inquisition spynetwork so well...

 

Yes cullen left templars when he was recruited as any person can? Josephine in first place wasn't tied to chantry and cullen was tied to templars and they didn't prove their loyalty in first place inquisition barely existed before inquistor came on the stage and only thing they did was serching for hawke and the warden and cullen was recruited after that possible josephine as well.

 

I gave you name well somone else did it but as i said leliana is hardly only one person that can be spymaster in fact it would take just talented spy pretty much that how leliana became spymaster in first place.Hardly as i said reports. 

 

 

Uh... Leliana is the only person running the spy ring. The spies are participating, but no sane spymaster is going to tell every single spy what all the other ones are doing. That sort of crap is on a need to know basis, for what I hope are pretty obvious reasons.

 

And uh, what, no need for long term plans? That's a joke, right? That's part of what they do. Spymasters collect information and then help move the pieces into place. They're chessmasters, moving their pawns around. She's just not an information broker.

 

You say that you understand that spymasters also function as assassins, or at least order them... yet you're up in arms because Leliana kills someone that you don't want killed. You're mad because what, she's not respecting your authoritah? Fine, then how are you respecting the fact that she's way, way more versed in espionage and reading people than you are, yet you're insisting that Sister Natalie isn't a real threat and thus doesn't need to be neutralised. Can she move to have you removed based on  your bleeding heart?

 

The backbone of the Inquisition existed when your future Inquisitor was trekking to the conclave for whatever reason. Josephine was already handling diplomatic matters, Leliana was already doing spy thing, Cullen was already working with the troops. The only difference is that Cassandra was effectively acting in your position because you didn't yet exist. They extended the courtesy of caring about your opinion and you were able to prove yourself.

 

 

The fact is, even a peaceful handover after Corypheus is killed takes a long while to do effectively. You want to do it by the seat of your pants because oh no, she made a decision you didn't agree with. I don't even like Leliana but I can recognise that she is needed in the role that she plays for the time being, the same way I recognise that Mother Giselle provides valuable insight even if I'm a heathen Dalish atheist who doesn't give two figs and a sovereign for the Chantry or the Maker.

[MisterJB]

This raises the valid point that we never deal with fallout caused by our troops.

What, our soldiers never pillage anything? Take a few liberties with "liberated" populations? When we crossed nearly all of Orlais with our army to fight the Wardens, there were no incidents?

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Uh... Leliana is the only person running the spy ring. The spies are participating, but no sane spymaster is going to tell every single spy what all the other ones are doing. That sort of crap is on a need to know basis, for what I hope are pretty obvious reasons.

 

And uh, what, no need for long term plans? That's a joke, right? That's part of what they do. Spymasters collect information and then help move the pieces into place. They're chessmasters, moving their pawns around. She's just not an information broker.

 

You say that you understand that spymasters also function as assassins, or at least order them... yet you're up in arms because Leliana kills someone that you don't want killed. You're mad because what, she's not respecting your authoritah? Fine, then how are you respecting the fact that she's way, way more versed in espionage and reading people than you are, yet you're insisting that Sister Natalie isn't a real threat and thus doesn't need to be neutralised. Can she move to have you removed based on  your bleeding heart?

 

The backbone of the Inquisition existed when your future Inquisitor was trekking to the conclave for whatever reason. Josephine was already handling diplomatic matters, Leliana was already doing spy thing, Cullen was already working with the troops. The only difference is that Cassandra was effectively acting in your position because you didn't yet exist. They extended the courtesy of caring about your opinion and you were able to prove yourself.

 

 

The fact is, even a peaceful handover after Corypheus is killed takes a long while to do effectively. You want to do it by the seat of your pants because oh no, she made a decision you didn't agree with. I don't even like Leliana but I can recognise that she is needed in the role that she plays for the time being, the same way I recognise that Mother Giselle provides valuable insight even if I'm a heathen Dalish atheist who doesn't give two figs and a sovereign for the Chantry or the Maker.

 

I didn't said she said what she is doing every single spy but im pretty much sure there are people responsible for doing certain operations and have insight not mention as i said reports that she and inquisitor gets.

 

Simple what i said there aren't any long-term plans that can't be replaced otherwise whole espionage in any organisation would fell apart once person responsible for managing it was gone even in unpredictable circumstances.As i said main conflict in inqusition is short-term not long-term and on long-term spymaster can keep up... 

 

"Leliana kills someone that you don't want killed" well you pretty much explained that to yourself but it is only part of the reason disobedience and threats toward superior are another.

 

I don't have to respect or like her she is my subordinate so she should follow orders because i don't need people who don't.To be honest i don't care about sister Natalie and i wouldn't care if she triped and broke her neck after lelianas missions what matters that leliana ignores our orders and no she wasn't threat for me she couldn't do anything against me.

 

Yes and nope as i said inqusition barely existed before inqusitor was involved and all before they did was search of hawke and grey warden cullen did pretty much nothing as he was recruited after cassandra visited kirkwall then they travel to ferelden to meet divine we have boom and inquisitor shows up.

 

No i want remove her because first she disobey orders from superior second she is in questionable mental state and third she threatens her superior what are in fact serious matters even among civil organisations.

[Raiil]

I didn't said she said what she is doing every single spy but im pretty much sure there are people responsible for doing certain operations and have insight not mention as i said reports that she and inquisitor gets.

 

Simple what i said there aren't any long-term plans that can't be replaced otherwise whole espionage in any organisation would fell apart once person responsible for managing it was gone even in unpredictable circumstances.As i said main conflict in inqusition is short-term not long-term and on long-term spymaster can keep up... 

 

"Leliana kills someone that you don't want killed" well you pretty much explained that to yourself but it is only part of the reason disobedience and threats toward superior are another.

 

I don't have to respect or like her she is my subordinate so she should follow orders because i don't need people who don't.To be honest i don't care about sister Natalie and i wouldn't care if she triped and broke her neck after lelianas missions what matters that leliana ignores our orders and no she wasn't threat for me she couldn't do anything against me.

 

Yes and nope as i said inqusition barely existed before inqusitor was involved and all before they did was search of hawke and grey warden cullen did pretty much nothing as he was recruited after cassandra visited kirkwall then they travel to ferelden to meet divine we have boom and inquisitor shows up.

 

No i want remove her because first she disobey orders from superior second she is in questionable mental state and third she threatens her superior what are in fact serious matters even among civil organisations.

 

 

And therein lies the problem with your philosophy- you're acting like just anyone with a decent amount of competence can step into their shoes and everything will be hunky dory so long as they listen to the Inquisitor who doesn't share their talents, foresight or experience. 

 

That doesn't strike you as a problem at all?

 

You are not a dictator. No Inquisitor is. All Inquisitors are equipped with enough foresight to understand that they are unable to do Cullen/Josephine/Leliana's shoes, just as they can't fill hers. You can still make bad choices... just not that one, in the same way you can't not be the Inquisitor.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And therein lies the problem with your philosophy- you're acting like just anyone with a decent amount of competence can step into their shoes and everything will be hunky dory so long as they listen to the Inquisitor who doesn't share their talents, foresight or experience. 

 

That doesn't strike you as a problem at all?

 

You are not a dictator. No Inquisitor is. All Inquisitors are equipped with enough foresight to understand that they are unable to do Cullen/Josephine/Leliana's shoes, just as they can't fill hers. You can still make bad choices... just not that one, in the same way you can't not be the Inquisitor.

Indeed here lies problem because im leader and leliana is subordinate and as i said i don't want disobedient subordinates very few people wants so.Not mention Leliana decision making is questionable at best because of her mental status.

 

Of course i can make bad choices doesn't mean i should by any mean allow my subordinates to be disobedient or even go so far to threaten me this is just ridiculous and stupid even in simple shop you would be fired at best for such behavior not to mention military organization.

 

And yes my inquisitor have sufficient knowledge to pretty much make main decisions i make decision who leliana kills or if she kills at all not leliana leliana just carries order.

[ThePhoenixKing]

And therein lies the problem with your philosophy- you're acting like just anyone with a decent amount of competence can step into their shoes and everything will be hunky dory so long as they listen to the Inquisitor who doesn't share their talents, foresight or experience. 

 

That doesn't strike you as a problem at all?

 

You are not a dictator. No Inquisitor is. All Inquisitors are equipped with enough foresight to understand that they are unable to do Cullen/Josephine/Leliana's shoes, just as they can't fill hers. You can still make bad choices... just not that one, in the same way you can't not be the Inquisitor.

 

Don't mind him, he just has Leliana Derangement Syndrome.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Don't mind him, he just has Leliana Derangement Syndrome.

If this is how you call allergy on writers pets then yes.

[Draining Dragon]

Meaningful choices? Of course not! What is this, an RPG with branching decisions?

[Raiil]

Don't mind him, he just has Leliana Derangement Syndrome.

 

 

Dude, I dislike Leliana so much she's not even recruited in my canon Warden playthrough and I still don't get this argument...

[Qun00]

The hardened and softened system should have never existed in the first place.

A character that can go full psychopath if someone makes a bad choice of words around her comes off as mentally unstable and easily suggestible.

[Killdren88]

Yes. I have long desired to boot Cullen to the curb. He has no place in my Inquisition.

[Wulfram]

I'm not sure the mark of a dictatorship is wanting an accountable intelligence service.

[Zobert]

Yeah, as much as I actually kinda liked Cullen this time around, Bioware's efforts to make him a high-fantasy version of Eisenhower came across as pretty laughable. Being the second-in-command of a glorified concentration camp doesn't make you a strategic military genius.

 

And for what it's worth, I think Leliana did a pretty good job as Spymaster. At least she tries to do a good job, and a lot of her failings in the role (for example, not figuring out that Solas isn't who he said he was) can be written off as poor storytelling resulting from the liberal passes of the Idiot Ball the game needed in order to make the story function. And why the hell would you get rid of Leliana, when there are a plethora of other characters in the game who are far more useless/annoying? You'd think someone like Sera or Vivienne would be on the chopping block long before the woman who runs a continent-spanning intelligence network.

 

Because you can choose to never play Sera or Vivienne.  You can never even add them to your party.

 

But...I'd fire a lot of people, not just Leliana. 

[Zobert]

If this is how you call allergy on writers pets then yes.

 

She's the "Lana Lang" of Dragon Age.  I liked her okay in DA:O because I didn't realize that they were going to do this to me with her...now I'd like to walk her to the edge of the battlements point out a nice bird and when she looks kick her off.

[DuskWanderer]

After playing last night and re-dealing with Leliana's desire to murder the hell out of people, I realized that what we're missing is a "Shape yo ass, up or gtfo" option or even a "You're fired" option for these people we have on staff--especially after we're lead Inquisitor.

 

In DA:2 I would have liked the option to not kill Anders (because you need his spirit healer for the battle) but to throw him down and pummel him until he cries for that Chantry business that he HIDES FROM YOU the entire third act.

 

In DA:I I would have fired Leliana right after

Spoiler

She first tried to murder someone

and I would have wanted the option to pimp slap her after she

Spoiler

murders Felix so that we have to fight Alexius and waste MORE time

.

 

Its frustrating that you're in charge but you can't fire your staff or promote others to it.  I would have fired Leliana after that mess and hired Sera right in front of her.  This is a military campaign and her personal angst and drama needs to be her own personal angst and drama.

 

I'd be all "Don't let the door hit you on the way out".

 

FIring somebody for what they did in the Future would prove you to be unworthy of being the leader. Sorry, but that's just grand incompetence.

[DuskWanderer]

If this is how you call allergy on writers pets then yes.

 

Leliana isn't a Writer's Pet, Mary Sue, or any of those other terms. The people who say such things don't base their decisions on facts. If you want a Writer's Pet from BioWARE, look to Liara T'Soni.

[FadelessRipley]

Leliana isn't a Writer's Pet, Mary Sue, or any of those other terms. The people who say such things don't base their decisions on facts. If you want a Writer's Pet from BioWARE, look to Liara T'Soni.

Hey hey now, some of us love both Leliana AND Liara, y'know. But yes, I'd have to say she's more deserving of the accusation tbh. I'll regret asking this, but I've never understood WHY Leliana is labeled as such? The only reason I can think of is people who hated her in Origins and chose to kill her having their decision apparently retconned with her role in Inquisition. Which I actually can understand, tbh. You can forgive BioWare for not knowing at the time his big they wanted her role to be and making an oversight. But they needed a good explanation for it. And the defence of "you can kill Morrigan, too" isn't really accurate as Morrigan's "death" is pretty ambiguous. I've seen playthroughs of defiling the ashes, and Leliana certainly looks dead.

Outside of this, though, I don't get it. Yeah she has a bigger role in the franchise as a whole outside of Origins. So...? So does Morrigan. Maybe they had her arc planned from the start, maybe they liked her character and decided she fit the overall arc well. After Leliana's Song, she fits in to the Divine/Chantry story pretty well. Which is featured in the novels, and influenced Inquisition greatly. I'm not saying everyone has to like her. The fact that I do adds to my enjoyment of the franchise, so conversely those with a strong dislike of her probably suffer. I feel for y'all, genuinely. But it's luck of the draw in that regard. Can you label a character as writer's pet or Mary Sue JUST because you hate them...?

And as a final point regarding writer's pets: erm, it's the writer's story? They do what they want with it. They're never going to poll the fandom to see who's most loved and hated!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Leliana isn't a Writer's Pet, Mary Sue, or any of those other terms. The people who say such things don't base their decisions on facts. If you want a Writer's Pet from BioWARE, look to Liara T'Soni.

She is i can give you 100 reasons why she is and even one of devs pretty much admited it...

[FadelessRipley]

She is i can give you 100 reasons why she is and even one of devs pretty much admited it...

One possible response to that... So what? It's the writers' story at the end of the day. We're just the audience. We don't necessarily get to say what happens. If Vivienne ends up featuring in the next sixteen games, not to mention novels and comics, I'm not going to start screaming about it. I'll enjoy the rest of the story and suck it up.

[Raiil]

Leliana isn't a Writer's Pet, Mary Sue, or any of those other terms. The people who say such things don't base their decisions on facts. If you want a Writer's Pet from BioWARE, look to Liara T'Soni.

 

 

She is. BioWare loves their sweetheart characters (and then breaking them over, and over, and over....) But they have insane plot armour and are sort of pushed into the scene constantly.

[o Ventus]

She is i can give you 100 reasons why she is and even one of devs pretty much admited it...

What a compelling argument.