20 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

What's the difference?

 

NOTE: Not Mac Walters' Comics as he is just as devoid of personality in those as well.

[Quarian Master Race]

None

He is just as retardedly covered in over the top Rule of (un)Cool plot armor and lacking in personality in other media as in the game, with a bit of gratuitous shirtlessness thrown in.

example 

[Taki17]

Yeah, Lang had serious potential. He was okay in the books (except Deception. Cereal. Rly?), but there is no excuse for the botched-attempt-of-a-villain they made him in ME3.

[Linkenski]

Can we exclude Deception from this discussion? We all know it's non-canon material written by some hack who just wanted to cash in on a popular franchise.

[CronoDragoon]

The only difference I can think of is that in the books he doesn't have an inferiority complex regarding Shepard. All in all he isn't much different.

[Vazgen]

Quoting MegaIllusiveMan
 

Yes... Taken Directly From Mass Effect Retribution, about Kai Leng:
 
The scene before him was a masterpiece of brutally efficient mayhem. In addition to the turian shot by the guards, two more were already on the floor. One’s throat had been slashed from behind, the cut so deep it nearly severed the head. The back of the other’s head had been blown off, the result of someone’s firing a pistol jammed against the back of his skull so the kinetic barriers couldn’t protect him. The remaining three were engaged in close-quarters fighting with Kai Leng. Despite not wearing a combat suit—he wasn’t even wearing a shirt—Cerberus’s top wet-work operative made short work of the heavily armored turians.
 
 
At melee range the heavy turian assault rifles proved to be a disadvantage; they were too slow andcumbersome to be brought to bear on a target as lithe and mobile as the human butcher attacking them. Kai Leng’s weapons presented no such problems. He stabbed his knife in an upward thrust toward the head of his nearest opponent. The sharply ascending angle brought it in beneath the turian’s protective visor, impaling him through the underside of his chin. The blade penetrated up through tissue and bone and into the brain, resulting in instantaneous death.
 
The weapon was stuck fast in its victim, but Kai Leng had already released his grip on the hilt. One of the turians had thrown down his own ineffectual weapon and grabbed Kai Leng’s wrist with both hands in an attempt to break his arm, or at least wrench the pistol from his grasp. But his combat suit made his movements clumsy and awkward, and the thick gloves prevented him from getting a proper grip. Kai Leng slipped free and dropped to the ground, his leg sweeping out to knock the turian off his feet even as his partner fired a round from his assault rifle at the space where his human target had been standing upright an instant before.
 
Crouched low to the floor, Kai Leng shoved the nose of the pistol against the back of the still standing turian’s knee. The joints of the combat suits were less protected to maintain flexibility; the thin mesh material did nothing to absorb the projectile when he squeezed the trigger. With a scream the turian fell to the floor, the assault rifle slipping from his grasp.
 
It had all taken less than a second

He was made somewhat a bada**. That's why I was genuinely worried after meeting him the first time. Then Thane showed up and I worried for him, because of his illness. Thane kicked Leng back and I was relieved. Then Thane got stabbed and Shepard ran after Leng. After pursuing him for quite some time Shepard finally caught up to him and... ran straight to the elevator with 3 Phantoms and Leng! I was thinking "don't go there, stop!!!"

[Switish]

[Quarian Master Race]

Quoting MegaIllusiveMan
 

He was made somewhat a bada**. That's why I was genuinely worried after meeting him the first time. Then Thane showed up and I worried for him, because of his illness. Thane kicked Leng back and I was relieved. Then Thane got stabbed and Shepard ran after Leng. After pursuing him for quite some time Shepard finally caught up to him and... ran straight to the elevator with 3 Phantoms and Leng! I was thinking "don't go there, stop!!!"

sorry, but that all still sounds really stupid. If the turians had shot Kai Lame the moment he tried to bring a knife to a gunfight with no shirt on, then It would have been okay, though I still would have questioned how someone who makes such stupid decisions became an elite Cerberus operative. 

The situation still presents the same problem that plauges Kai Leng's character, namely the plot armor/ requirement that everyone in the room become an idiot for him to work. Assault rifles are not at a disadvantage against clearly visible blade wielding naked people at any range, especially when there are multiple armored dudes with assault rifles vs 1 blade wielding naked person.

Space ninjas really shouldn't be anywhere near something that considers itself even a little bit hard SciFi.

[Vazgen]

sorry, but that all still sounds really stupid. If the turians had shot Kai Lame the moment he tried to bring a knife to a gunfight with no shirt on, then It would have been okay, though I still would have questioned how someone who makes such stupid decisions became an elite Cerberus operative. 

The situation still presents the same problem that plauges Kai Leng's character, namely the plot armor/ requirement that everyone in the room become an idiot for him to work. Assault rifles are not at a disadvantage against clearly visible blade wielding naked people at any range, especially when there are multiple armored dudes with assault rifles vs 1 blade wielding naked person.

Space ninjas really shouldn't be anywhere near something that considers itself even a little bit hard SciFi.

I'll have to disagree. I do have problems hitting Phantoms at close range with a Saber. That's with Shepard not being constrained with armor and weapon weight and range being longer than the one Leng operates at in the book. If I were to aim a heavy assault rifle at a very nimble target in close quarters with the risk of friendly fire, I too would've been at a disadvantage. He also uses a pistol alongside the knife and has the element of surprise.

[wolfhowwl]

The character was never good and should have stayed in the books.

[Quarian Master Race]

I'll have to disagree. I do have problems hitting Phantoms at close range with a Saber. That's with Shepard not being constrained with armor and weapon weight and range being longer than the one Leng operates at in the book. If I were to aim a heavy assault rifle at a very nimble target in close quarters with the risk of friendly fire, I too would've been at a disadvantage. He also uses a pistol alongside the knife and has the element of surprise.

Sorry, but there is a reason that no modern military or espionage service training in any country on the planet Earth includes any versing in "shirtless katana" techniques. You can subjectively think it is cool, but it is stupid from any logical standpoint by our standards, let alone in the future when everyone has presumably more advanced firearms and is wearing head to toe magic space-material heavy armor (which I will remind you, blades have been next to useless against even Bronze plate since before Jesus was born).

"Element of suprise" lasts for about the tenth of a second that it takes one of the multiple guys (note, firefights never end well when you are grossly outnumbered even if you have a gun yourself due to fire superiority mechanics that actually take place) to process that some idiot is pinging blows off of their armor with a prehistoric weapon and stop laughing,  then make the moral decision as to whether or not they want to shoot a clearly mentally insane or retarded person. "Friendly fire" considerations would be even easier in the ME universe because of the existence of personal kinetic barriers.

It's something straight out of anime. If you want ME to be anime, that's fine, but I like it to tend at least somewhat toward hard Sci-Fi when it can.

[Vazgen]

Sorry, but there is a reason that no modern military or espionage service training in any country on the planet Earth includes any versing in "shirtless katana" techniques. You can subjectively think it is cool, but it is stupid from any logical standpoint by our standards, let alone in the future when everyone has presumably more advanced firearms and is wearing head to toe magic space-material heavy armor (which I will remind you, blades have been next to useless against even Bronze plate since before Jesus was born).

"Element of suprise" lasts for about the tenth of a second that it takes one of the multiple guys (note, firefights never end well when you are grossly outnumbered even if you have a gun yourself due to fire superiority mechanics that actually take place) to process that some idiot is pinging blows off of their armor with a prehistoric weapon and stop laughing,  then make the moral decision as to whether or not they want to shoot a clearly mentally insane or retarded person. "Friendly fire" considerations would be even easier in the ME universe because of the existence of personal kinetic barriers.

It's something straight out of anime. If you want ME to be anime, that's fine, but I like it to tend at least somewhat toward hard Sci-Fi when it can.

Melee weapons advance as well. I can totally see a knife in Mass Effect universe to be able to pierce armor, especially in certain weak spots which he does exploit. There is a reason why modern special forces practice melee and hand-to-hand combat. And you won't be filling the entire room with bullets when your friends stand next to you. Shields won't protect from close range barrage, they'll be very quickly depleted. 

I don't watch anime and I do think that his portrayal in ME3 was... weak, to say the least. I do think, however, that his book version is better in comparison and makes more sense. 

[Han Shot First]

Even in the modern era hand-to-hand combat is extremely rare. Troops are far more likely to use their bayonets to open rations than they are to kill enemy soldiers with them. That isn't to say that hand-to-hand doesn't happen occasionally (it does) or that troops don't need to train for that possibility, but among all the skills they must learn to make them competent in combat hand-to-hand training is very far down the list. If you were to introduce weapons with near limitless ammunition and the body armor & shields from the Mass Effect universe, that would likely make hand-to-hand combat an even rarer occurrence than it already is.

 

Even today, while the bayonet is still useful in rare occasions, the sword is completely obsolete. The technology of the Mass Effect universe would render the sword an even more obsolete weapon than it already is.

 

The only reason Kai Leng carries a sword is because someone thought it would work as Rule of Cool. Unfortunately I think that backfired, and helped to make him a cartoonish villain that people have trouble taking seriously. 

 

Realistically Kai Leng bringing a sword to a gun fight would have ended like this:

 

[Vazgen]

Realistically Kai Leng bringing a sword to a gun fight would have ended like this:

Well, it does end up like this. At least on Cronos 

[themikefest]

"You ran on the Citadel. You ran on Thessia."

 

"SHUTUP."

[Quarian Master Race]

Melee weapons advance as well. I can totally see a knife in Mass Effect universe to be able to pierce armor, especially in certain weak spots which he does exploit. There is a reason why modern special forces practice melee and hand-to-hand combat. And you won't be filling the entire room with bullets when your friends stand next to you. Shields won't protect from close range barrage, they'll be very quickly depleted. 

I don't watch anime and I do think that his portrayal in ME3 was... weak, to say the least. I do think, however, that his book version is better in comparison and makes more sense. 

The combat knife is more like a multitool in modern armies. Yes, specialized combat arms guys and gals will have training in it in some (though not many) circumstances, but there is no one who trains in its use as a primary or even secondary weapon. You don't use it in any circumstances unless you literally have no better options than being unarmed for more than the dozens of seconds to multiple minutes it usually takes to disable or kill someone with a knife. (real people don't instantly drop dead from anything less than the brainstem being severed) 

While Kai-Lame is searching for that elusive "weak point" (usually joints in armor not protecting anything that is vital or would result in rapid collapse and thus ending the threat) on a moving target that is attacking back and defending back, all said target or any one of his expertly trained marksman buddies have to do is bring the muzzle to bear and lob a bullet in the general direction of Kai-Lame's "weak point" (in this case his entire shirtless body), which would take much, much less time than executing any blade attack with damaging force behind it would. Even adding shields or armor to argument just brings up the same reason that plate armor died because of primitive firearms in the 15th century, namely anything you can do with a sword you can do much faster and from much greater range with a loaded firearm. Why isn't Kai-Lame just using a pistol and aiming at said "weak points" instead of a sword? What disadvantage would there be to justify foregoing all of the obvious advantages?

I'm not trying to patronize, but military and firefight tactics is a science. Everyone didn't just decide to abandon swords for all non ceremonial uses back in the 19th century for no apparent reason. There is no logical advantage to Kai Lame running around encumbered with an at best extremely situational weapon and at worst a paperweight, let along training in its use as a primary weapon.

[Vazgen]

Are we still discussing the book or the game? I can't tell from your reply. He's not shirtless in the game but uses a sword. He is shirtless in the book but doesn't use a sword. In the book he uses those weapons situationally, not because they are the main weapons he trained with. That changes in the game (for the worst). In the book he doesn't really have a better option. He uses both the pistol and the knife to take down the turians, not one or the other. The book implies that he has prior knowledge of aforementioned "weak spots" and how to exploit them, not that he notices one in the battle and goes for it.

[Pasquale1234]

You don't need armor when you can put on a galactic gold medal performance in triple-axel ninja ballet.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If Thane and Miranda were dead....

 

Shepard: "Plot armor doesn't help you now, does it?"

 

Kai Lame: (dies)

[Reorte]

The big difference between now and Mass Effect are barriers and shields, which means that it takes longer to take someone down. Having a gun fired at you simply isn't quite as serious in the ME universe as it is in reality, and for decent lore reasons as well as gameplay ones (health, on the other hand...)  Tactics change as the balance between offensive and defensive cababilities switch. Take for example the brief period in the 19th century when battleship armour outstripped the capability of guns and the ram became the main weapon, probably for the first time since Roman times.

 

I don't really want to defend Kai Leng at all, but the idea isn't 100% stupid. Just about 80-90%, since I'd imagine a knife or bayonet would still be a much better overall choice. There might be situations where the sword works, more so than now, but that hardly makes it the choice weapon considering its size (phantoms wouldn't be particularly worrying enemies without their palm blasters after all).

[aoibhealfae]

I like Leng Chai in ME3 because it felt more satisfying nailing him with my black widow. I wish we could have proper melee sword for ME3. Then again, there's Dragon Age.

 

I actually like him more as a cameo in Foundation. He's far annoying in Retribution and the bulk of the book was his dull narrative. I know that he's written like he's a cool slick badass assassin but he is plain terrible (his brightest moment was

Spoiler

killing Aria's daughter but this was left unresolved

I like Drew Karpyshyn but he can't write a proper brooding space ninja.  

 

(Leng Chai/Zai means 'handsome boy' in cantonese but can be used in sarcastic way too.. and the game pronounce Leng as in canto instead of mandarin.. its still correct but its a tonal language. Leng and Lĕng have different meanings. And Hoi Leng seems more apt...)