316 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

Either way, it's a lot spin just for including a minor NPC. 

 

It seems so unnecessary. I'd rather not jump through all of these linguistic hoops just to understand a small point. That in itself is sloppy. Expecting people to do that. Or if they're trying to be clever, like.. "Hey look at the Qunari! They're such mindf*ck in how they categorize things!" Then that isn't interesting either.

 

All it's accomplished is produce a bunch of threads where people can't even understand each other.

 

Assuming it is spin ofc. I have yet to see anything that shows me without a doubt that this is not how the qunari concept of men and women were intended from the start, just a lot of people with RL baggage assuming that that MUST have been the case. And then 'unnecessary' by what metric? Whatever you call the people who aren't SJWs? Is there a reason their concerns should be listened above those of the SJWs? Apart from the fact that they seem to think it's something to sneer at? Why are they right? Especially if the message is cogent with an already existing in game philosophy?

 

Just as an aside it should be considered that IB and Sten are both just singular members of their society at the end of the day. For all we know Sten could be the stuffy traditional uncle and IB could be the loopy liberal.

[Dai Grepher]

I have to summarize, because this is too long.

 

@Sylvius the Mad Physical reality would have everything to do with Krem's placement in the Qun.

 

Believe me, I always try to make a storyline make sense. You may have seen me do this in the Hawke/Bloodmagic thread, or the King vs. Prince Consort threads. The way I have this make sense is for The Iron Bull to be deceptive for Krem's sake. Either what he says contradicts The Sten directly, or he is giving a half truth, that aqun-athlok are recognized by the Qun, but mum's the word on what is done with them. He may be hiding the fact that aqun-athlok are reeducated, and instead responding to Krem's statement with his own opinion of what aqun-athlok are. A sly diversion that neither insults Krem nor misrepresents the Qun. "Yes, the Qun recognizes the existence of those who are one gender but live like the other, and I say they are the gender they think they are." That's basically what The Iron Bull is doing. He's making you think the Qun respects transgenderism, when in fact only he does because he disagrees with some parts of the Qun.

 

As stated by Training Dragon above, The Sten identifies the female Warden's biological sex based on her appearance, while at the same time being confounded by her behavior in carrying out a male role. He also clearly states that women should not wish to be men, it would only lead to frustration. In order to even identify a transgender one must necessarily recognize the biological sex of the person and then the gender the person wishes to be. Otherwise, all you would do is recognize the gender the person wishes to be and just assume that person is that gender, in which case you would not call the person transgender or aqun-athlok but rather simply call the person by that gender. In that case this discussion would not exist.

 

@DomeWing333 But it wouldn't just be a case of a stupid belief, the act of following it would also be stupid, as would having it at all. You're going to claim your Qun is truth and should be followed because it is "enlightenment", and yet you create ways to get around the Qun's rules rather than just strike out the rule? That would show the Qunari acting stupidly.

 

@Hiemoth 1. Was The Sten describing "the whole Qun" to us in Origins, or was he just describing one belief from the Qun? That would be like the Christian describing the one belief of thou shalt not steal. Now, if another Christian came along and told you the exact opposite, that thou shalt steal, would you not think to yourself that one of those two people is incorrect?

 

The Sten may have been of the military branch, but that is exactly the role we are discussing here, the warrior. Assuming The Sten is ignorant of the Qun, he still sees the battlefield. He knows what soldiers are. He knows there are no women fighting as soldiers. It is not done. That said, he clearly shows that he is a dedicated follower of the Qun. He is even willing to die for his mistakes rather than walk away from the Qun's teachings. And if The Sten is not a valid source because he is not a Tamassran or whatever, then the same standard would apply to The Iron Bull, in which case you can't say the Qun would accept Krem as is.

 

2. The culture does not define what those statements mean. Words define what those statements mean. And the Qun defines what The Sten thinks. The statement about how a woman cannot be a warrior does not show what a woman is defined as, but the statement about how a woman should not wish to be a man DOES define it. The Sten says a woman cannot be a man. It is not done. There is no more to it. Tallis is not classified as a warrior. She is a spy of sorts.

 

Armaas in the Silverite Mines. "The Qun is a lie! I am Tal-Vashoth, an outcast. My life belongs to me. I do not help darkspawn, I help myself."

[DomeWing333]

@DomeWing333 But it wouldn't just be a case of a stupid belief, the act of following it would also be stupid, as would having it at all. You're going to claim your Qun is truth and should be followed because it is "enlightenment", and yet you create ways to get around the Qun's rules rather than just strike out the rule? That would show the Qunari acting stupidly.

...Yeah? So what? What you're describing is how cults and religions have always dealt with contradictions to their scriptures. They never just openly admit that "Oh yeah, that line is completely wrong. Let's just take it out," because that would undermine the integrity of the whole thing. If the Qun can be wrong about differences between the roles males and females can have, people might start asking what else might it be wrong about. That breeds dissent and dissent is unacceptable. So they make excuses. Loopholes that allows the Qun to maintain the illusion of infallibility while still accounting for a clearly observable fact. 

[Saphiron123]

Here's the thing. Seen identifies the warden and wynne as women, he's confused by the fact they fight, but at NO point does he decide to identify then as men.

Therefore women warriors are not considered men by him, women simply aren't warriors.

Which means Gaider was more interested in his own personal politics then the narrative of past games.

It's his right, but arguing it's anything else is just silly. There's no evidence prior to inquisition that Qunari even consider gender to be a thing, and strong evidence against.

It's a retcon. Just admit it, accept that he changed it, and roll with it. Arguing that sten either desn't understand the Qun or didn't mean what he said the way he said it is just silly. He's a pretty literal dude, and the dialogue is there for everyone to hear.

[DomeWing333]

Here's the thing. Seen identifies the warden and wynne as women, he's confused by the fact they fight, but at NO point does he decide to identify then as men.

Therefore women warriors are not considered men by him, women simply aren't warriors.

Which means Gaider was more interested in his own personal politics then the narrative of past games.

It's his right, but arguing it's anything else is just silly. There's no evidence prior to inquisition that Qunari even consider gender to be a thing, and strong evidence against.

It's a retcon. Just admit it, accept that he changed it, and roll with it. Arguing that sten either desn't understand the Qun or didn't mean what he said the way he said it is just silly. He's a pretty literal dude, and the dialogue is there for everyone to hear.

Why would he identify them as men when they were very clearly women and identified themselves as such? He's confused because he's seeing these beings who appear to be warriors, but also appear to be women and that's an inherent contradiction to him. Literally the only warriors Sten had seen seen thus far in his life dressed like men, acted like men, and we treated by everyone as men. The fact that this wasn't the case is what baffles him.

 

Note that he isn't at all baffled by Shale and refers to Shale as a warrior without any hesitation whatsoever. That's because Shale, unlike the warden or Wynne or Leliana, displays no traces of femininity whatsoever and thus is for all intents and purposes, exactly like every other warrior Sten has met.

 

EDIT: Also, in regards to this:

There's no evidence prior to inquisition that Qunari even consider gender to be a thing, and strong evidence against.

Look at this conversation between Morrigan and Sten:

 

Sten: Why are you here?

Morrigan: Excuse me?

Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?

Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave.

Sten: It is not done.

Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool.

Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind.

Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.

Sten: That has yet to be proven.

Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?

Sten: Either.

Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.

 

Right there. Sten is questioning whether Morrigan and other female fighters are truly women, despite the fact that their biological sexes are clearly that of women. So is Sten blind or does the Qunari, in fact, consider "woman" to include something other than biological sex?

[daveliam]

I genuinely think that this is a situation where the games have left it vague enough that both the 'retcon' and 'not retcon' sides have points, but neither is obviously correct.  It's only a retcon if you choose to interpret it that way.  I don't see it as a retcon myself. 

[DomeWing333]

I genuinely think that this is a situation where the games have left it vague enough that both the 'retcon' and 'not retcon' sides have points, but neither is obviously correct.  It's only a retcon if you choose to interpret it that way.  I don't see it as a retcon myself.

I would say that it's a retcon of intention, but not a retcon of any actual dialogue. The writers obvious didn't intend for Sten to have the Aqun-athlok in mind when talking to his female companions since they themselves didn't have that concept in mind when writing him. But since his dialogue didn't necessarily preclude the possibility of him having a concept of the Aqun-athlok in mind, they decided that it was something they could write in and still maintain continuity. No actual in-game events or dialogue was changed. No contradiction took place. Sten still said all those things that he said, Bull still says all those things that he says. Neither of them were lying. All that's changed is how we're supposed to interpret it.
 
EDIT: The appropriate term for this seems to be an "addition retcon."

[Zobert]

Couple of things:

 

Not just Sten--The Arishok also describes roles within the Qun and your ability to choose those roles (you can't, you're placed in them as children).  You can also look around the Qunari compound and note that none of the warriors were anything other than Qunari and Qunari males.  We know this because they're naked from the top up.

 

I am a Paul or Firestone feminist and believe that "gender" does not exist and that sex-difference is a by-product of dialectical materialism and adaptation to physical characteristics that led to the delineation of labor, therefore Sten's original comment (and that of the Arishok) makes sense that they would align people into categories because they lack equalizing technology that we have (mostly) today.

 

We will become less reliant on gender terms as technology advances.

 

If people choose to pretend that in the world of Thedas there are no sex-differences and that female physiology without the enhancement of male hormones would lead Krem to be a warrior such as that produced by Qunari/Qun that's your game.  There are dragons, after all.

 

If, however, we believe this is the society of the original Dragon Age then it makes zero sense.

 

I think it is a retcon to increase inclusivity and solidify a fanbase that is highly supportive of trans-issues, but individual people play this game and therefore individual people can think what they want about the game and play it how they choose.  There is still an element of fiction within all our heads.

 

As far as the Qun and their earlier portrayal versus now...are they "gray" instead of being baddies...

 

Generally speaking, the removal of choice and limitations on freedom have been seen as negative in books, games, etc.  Being assigned a role in life was something that made Hawke frown and not very happy in DA2.  She didn't want them to convert Kirkwall.  Their presence was a threat to the way of life.  They were "good" villains because of the ambiguity of it.  They had a code that some feel is admirable but limiting, which makes them they type of bad guy that you enjoy because while you resist you still have admiration for them.

 

However, they were about conformity.  They were clearly shown as a group of people that "we" did not want to join, a people that would have taken Krem and shoved him into a world of priestly duties or breeding whether he liked it or not.  That's not a "good" characteristic to our modern thinking.

 

It is what Dorian fought against with his family (forced roles), it is why the Tal-Vashoth rebelled.

 

We "like" the Qunari and would rather make them more likeable anti-heroes than keep them as they were.  It is why Bull is such a neutered character in a way.  He has horns but he's just nowhere near as cool as the Arishok.  Why?  He's not ominous.  He's funny, giddy and replace his body with that of someone who looks like Sera or Blackwall and you can't tell he's Qun.

 

 

This is clearly a "Greedo shot first" out of Bioware.

[Shechinah]

(to Zobert) You could argue that to be a charismatic spy, Bull would need to be very unlike how people outside of Tevinter and Qun territories see the Qunari as. By being this way, he has a larger chance of keeping himself endeared to his comrades while still keeping himself intimidating towards his enemies. If he acted the way of the other Qunari we have seen, met and encountered, he'd likely unnerve people.

 

If you see the Qunari as silent and stiff people, you'd be a lot less likely to suspect that the keg-drinking and jolly mercenary is actually a Qunari spy and not everything the Qunari despises.

[Uccio]

What I think is that it was just made to make the Imperium look more evil, even the "no personality" qun is now transgender friendly. But not the Imperium.

[Shechinah]

(to Ukki) Both societies had something added to them in Inquisition with Tevinter having Dorian and some of the War Table missions show that Tevinter is not a society of evil hats as individuals within it wants to change aspects of it but it is difficult because of the methods used by the people who do not want it changed and so assassinates those who do to maintain status quo.

[Draining Dragon]

The Qunari were so much more interesting in DAO and DA2.

In fact, everything about the Qunari in DA2 was great. They were probably the only good thing about DA2.

[Zobert]

What I think is that it was just made to make the Imperium look more evil, even the "no personality" qun is now transgender friendly. But not the Imperium.

 

That could be the case, setting it up for the next game but I don't think that's it.

 

I still think it is a reaction to the fans.  It's like how Spike was loved unprecedentedly in Buffy so the writers de-fanged him, so to speak, to make him a member of the Scooby Gang.  Eventually people wanted the old Spike back.

 

People like it now, but once all the Qun are like Bull or the Tevinter storyline is used up...there is no good "bad guy".  I mean, Corphyeus sucked.  Meredith SUCKED.  Seriously, Act III was a huge letdown from the Qun taking over the city. 

[Zobert]

(to Zobert) You could argue that to be a charismatic spy, Bull would need to be very unlike how people outside of Tevinter and Qun territories see the Qunari as. By being this way, he has a larger chance of keeping himself endeared to his comrades while still keeping himself intimidating towards his enemies. If he acted the way of the other Qunari we have seen, met and encountered, he'd likely unnerve people.

 

If you see the Qunari as silent and stiff people, you'd be a lot less likely to suspect that the keg-drinking and jolly mercenary is actually a Qunari spy and not everything the Qunari despises.

 

Maybe, but in the dialogue with Sera she calls him out on it and lets him and you know that Bull really is into those things.

[Shechinah]

(to Zobert) I had the dialogue bug and haven't gotten around to hear all of the dialogue on youtube yet so could you post it or direct me to a video along with the time for when the dialogue bit occurs? I'd appreciate it.

[Draining Dragon]

That could be the case, setting it up for the next game but I don't think that's it.
 
I still think it is a reaction to the fans.  It's like how Spike was loved unprecedentedly in Buffy so the writers de-fanged him, so to speak, to make him a member of the Scooby Gang.  Eventually people wanted the old Spike back.
 
People like it now, but once all the Qun are like Bull or the Tevinter storyline is used up...there is no good "bad guy".  I mean, Corphyeus sucked.  Meredith SUCKED.  Seriously, Act III was a huge letdown from the Qun taking over the city.

I agree, but I think they could have and should have spread the evil around a bit.

With the changes, Qunari have lost their intrigue and Tevinter has become so evil it's ridiculous.

My biggest complaint about Tevinter comes from the Dorian quest. The writers were like "oh, you know that country that believes in slavery, human sacrifice, and demonic rituals? The one that's responsible for the two greatest threats Thedas has ever known? Yeah, they're also homophobic."

I mean, really? Was Tevinter not evil enough to begin with?

[Zobert]

Assuming it is spin ofc. I have yet to see anything that shows me without a doubt that this is not how the qunari concept of men and women were intended from the start, just a lot of people with RL baggage assuming that that MUST have been the case. And then 'unnecessary' by what metric? Whatever you call the people who aren't SJWs? Is there a reason their concerns should be listened above those of the SJWs? Apart from the fact that they seem to think it's something to sneer at? Why are they right? Especially if the message is cogent with an already existing in game philosophy?

 

Just as an aside it should be considered that IB and Sten are both just singular members of their society at the end of the day. For all we know Sten could be the stuffy traditional uncle and IB could be the loopy liberal.

 

 

What about the Arishok's explanation of the Qun?  How many ****** did you see on the warriors in the compound since that was the army?

 

Sten's being mystified by a woman being a warrior said it all.

 

I really hate to bring this up because as a female I am somewhat conflicted but women do not have the physical strength of men and it's hard to admit that sometimes because it's always used against you later, but anyway. 

 

People are put in Qun roles, they don't choose the roles.  It makes sense that you'd shove a huge male in that role.  If I want a guard dog not a burglar alarm but a serious guard dog, I'm not picking a beagle if I have the option of a Rottweiler.  It makes no sense to do so.

 

FTM trans now take hormones that change their bone density, etc. MTF do the same. 

 

There is a reason Rhonda Rousey refuses to fight the Cyborg or Fallon Fox.

[phantomrachie]

The Qunari were so much more interesting in DAO and DA2.

In fact, everything about the Qunari in DA2 was great. They were probably the only good thing about DA2.

 

How were they more interesting? Because Sten and the Arishok were stoic? 

 

DA lore always said that Qunari culture came in three parts, the mind, body & soul and that trying to understand the culture by looking at one part wouldn't work.

 

The body is stoic  (Sten and the Arishok)

The mind is more emotional  (Tallis & Iron Bull)

 

Who knows what the soul is like.

 

You have made assumptions of what the Qun is like based on 2 characters, even when the lore argued against it, and now, when BioWare show you another side to the Qun, you claim it is retcon.

 

Expanding the lore is not retcon. Your annoyance comes from your own assumptions of the Qun, not BioWare.

[Zobert]

I agree, but I think they could have and should have spread the evil around a bit.

With the changes, Qunari have lost their intrigue and Tevinter has become so evil it's ridiculous.

My biggest complaint about Tevinter comes from the Dorian quest. The writers were like "oh, you know that country that believes in slavery, human sacrifice, and demonic rituals? The one that's responsible for the two greatest threats Thedas has ever known? Yeah, they're also homophobic."

I mean, really? Was Tevinter not evil enough to begin with?

 

LOL, true.

 

At the same time, this is a game that recognizes and supports its fan base so I can't blame them.  That's good business and a good customer-company relationship.  Gay people play video games and it is nice to see these things "fought" in games.

 

It's also why I'm sour because there is real life sexism and now I don't get to fight it within the game now that the Qun has been softened.  No "Patriarchy" to fight against...except Tevinter, I'm sure we'll find out that the female mages are oppressed.

 

They'll probably make everyone in Tevinter white blondes and Republican by the next game...

[Zobert]

How were they more interesting? Because Sten and the Arishok were stoic? 

 

DA lore always said that Qunari culture came in three parts, the mind, body & soul and that trying to understand the culture by looking at one part wouldn't work.

 

The body is stoic  (Sten and the Arishok)

The mind is more emotional  (Tallis & Iron Bull)

 

Who knows what the soul is like.

 

You have made assumptions of what the Qun is like based on 2 characters, even when the lore argued against it, and now, when BioWare show you another side to the Qun, you claim it is retcon.

 

Expanding the lore is not retcon. Your annoyance comes from your own assumptions of the Qun, not BioWare.

 

Perhaps because we have read the same stories, played the same game and disagree?  It does happen.

[line_genrou]

With time it seems the writers are making the story more and more shallow, as opposed to how it was before

It used to be mysterious, and even grey when it came to being good or evil

Now it's like

liberal = good guys

conservative = bad guys

 

Everyone is accepting of each other now and it's all rainbows and sunshine. Seriously. This is supposed to be gritty dark world, at least to me that's what it felt like in DAO

It really seems like they're trying to push a mindset on us

I just want to play the game and escape my present reality, I don't want to deal with all these issues we already have to deal with every day all the time.

[Shechinah]

(to Draining Dragon) I'd say it is more about the Tevinter families' legacy and with Dorian, it was about how he was refusing what was expected of him: producing a heir. His homosexuality played a part in it but it ultimately came up to Dorian refusing to marry and produce a heir to continue the legacy. I just wish they'd put a bit more emphasis on that part because the quest's execution, in my opinion, emphasises his homosexuality when it was "not willing to play pretend for the rest of his life" that was the problem.  

[phantomrachie]

I agree, but I think they could have and should have spread the evil around a bit.

With the changes, Qunari have lost their intrigue and Tevinter has become so evil it's ridiculous.

My biggest complaint about Tevinter comes from the Dorian quest. The writers were like "oh, you know that country that believes in slavery, human sacrifice, and demonic rituals? The one that's responsible for the two greatest threats Thedas has ever known? Yeah, they're also homophobic."

I mean, really? Was Tevinter not evil enough to begin with?

 

If you think Tevinter is homophobic then you missed the point of Dorian's quest.

 

In Tevinter Mages must breed to keep the Magic Bloodlines strong. Dorian's Father wouldn't have cared if he was gay, IF he had just gotten married and had a child. Dorian could've taken male lovers and no one would've cared.

 

It was his refusal to marry because that was the big deal. Dorian could've been straight and his refusal to marry still would've been a big deal.

 

Dorian being gay made the quest more impactful, but it wasn't the point. 

[line_genrou]

Also, Krem is such a badly written character I can't get over

Mainly what we know of him is that he's a transgender, that's it. That's his role in the game, be the transgender person of the group. Is that really the smart way to "make" people more accepting? Forgive me for expecting more of people aside from the sexual orientation or with which gender they identify with.

 

In DAO we had Zevran who had a very interesting background, he was bisexual, but the first thing that come to our minds when we think of him is not that he was the bisexual guy in the party, he was Zevran with his history along with him.

And when we think of Krem? The transgender in IB's gang. That's not our fault, that's how badly written and shallow this character feels like.

[AresKeith]

Also, Krem is such a badly written character I can't get over

Mainly what we know of him is that he's a transgender, that's it. That's his role in the game, be the transgender person of the group. Is that really the smart way to "make" people more accepting? Forgive me for expecting more of people aside from the sexual orientation or with which gender they identify with.

 

If that's it, then you really didn't talk to Krem all that much