316 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

(to line_genrou) Zevran was our companion, Krem was Iron Bull's companion so we do not get to know the latter as well as we do the former though Krem does tell something about both his backstory, family, how he met the Bull and such as well as the advetures they went on.

[phantomrachie]

Perhaps because we have read the same stories, played the same game and disagree?  It does happen.

 

Sure it could happen, but there is far more evidence for each part of the Qun having different personality traits than for them all being stoic giants.

 

Sten says you can't learn about the Qun from him because he is only one person and one person doesn't define a culture.

The Arishok says he is not equipped to teach the Qun.

There is a codex entry that talks about the 3 parts of the Qun.

 

We don't really know enough about the Qun for anyone to be right, which is why it can still be debated, I just find it odd that people are so quick to claim retcon, when it was clearly started in both DA:O & DA2 that you can't experience the whole of the Qun without experiencing the Mind, Body & Soul.

 

Also people get so hung up on one statement that Sten said in DA:O, when in the same game he tells Morrigan, that she can either be a fighter or a women, she can't be both and he is trying to work out which one she is.

 

If Morrigan or the Warden had an opportunity to tell Sten that they weren't a women, it seems to me like he would've been satisfied with that.

[Draining Dragon]

It doesn't matter whether the lore we have now is a retcon or just new lore. Either way, it makes the qunari far less unique and interesting.

[phantomrachie]

It doesn't matter whether the lore we have now is a retcon or just new lore. Either way, it makes the qunari far less unique and interesting.

 

How? They are less interesting because we know more about them now?

[Draining Dragon]

How? They are less interesting because we know more about them now?

The thing that made them interesting was that their values were so weird and alien compared to the modern values we're accustomed to. That's no longer the case. With the new lore, the rigid, oppressive society DAO and DA2 suggested has been replaced by a tolerant society that goes out of its way to accommodate its members, like a sort of idealized collectivist society. There was almost no conflict around Bull abandoning the Qun; his friend was like "lol whatever" and no real attempt was made to punish him for deserting.

[Shechinah]

(to Draining Dragon) What about the assassination attempt on Iron Bull's life that is seen by the Inquisitor?

[Draining Dragon]

(to Draining Dragon) What about the assassination attempt on Iron Bull's life that is seen by the Inquisitor?

Did you miss the dialogue that follows? Bull explicitly states that the assassination attempt was only a formality. And given how easily he dispatches the assassins, that's not hard to believe.

[Winged Silver]

Did you miss the dialogue that follows? Bull explicitly states that the assassination attempt was only a formality. And given how easily he dispatches the assassins, that's not hard to believe.

 

That's a good point. I still think they have an interesting society, but now I'm curious to see what 'heavy' action would look like, if someone they...valued(?) more left the Qun. I think there's still a lot of room to flesh out the Qun. Guess we'll see what the devs come up with whenever we head North.

[Shechinah]

(to Draining Dragon) Ah, I always just interpretated that as the Iron Bull saying it was formality informing him of his Tal-Vashoth status, a bit redundant given he'd probably already know but that it was just the first of many future attempts. I see your point, though.

[DomeWing333]

Did you miss the dialogue that follows? Bull explicitly states that the assassination attempt was only a formality. And given how easily he dispatches the assassins, that's not hard to believe.

And the fact that they sent 2 of their own people on a suicide mission as a "formality" doesn't strike you as weird and alien?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, if it was a genuine assassination attempt the Qun would have sent someone like this.

 

Spoiler

 

[Shechinah]

(to Hanako Ikezawa) "What, me an assassin? If I were an assassin, I think I'd be less conspicuous!"

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

All are slaves under the Qun. The fact that some of them are used for sex makes little difference.

They're no more enslaved than every other qunari (and arguably less than the saarebas), and the sexual role isn't viewed as tarnishing them in any way. "Sex slave" isn't entirely wrong, but it's far from a perfect description of how they and the rest of the Qun view their jobs. Besides which, for pragmatism's sake if nothing else, it seems like there'd be male practitioners for this particular bit of priest's work; maybe most priest work they could view a woman as better suited for, but this seems like neither gender could handle everyone.

The fact the Qun went from "We pair you off when you need to make baby" to "you will be for lack of a better word raped whenever a Qunari has an urge" is a big difference. 

And the Tamassran is the role that does this, and they are female-only. I guess there can be biologically male Qunari who are Aqun-athlok but then they would be considered female by the Qun. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

(to Hanako Ikezawa) "What, me an assassin? If I were an assassin, I think I'd be less conspicuous!"

Still be better than sending people they know wouldn't succeed. Just makes the Qun seem contradictory: say they waste nothing but waste agents and say they hate betrayal but don't really care if one does. 

[Zobert]

Sure it could happen, but there is far more evidence for each part of the Qun having different personality traits than for them all being stoic giants.

 

Sten says you can't learn about the Qun from him because he is only one person and one person doesn't define a culture.

The Arishok says he is not equipped to teach the Qun.

There is a codex entry that talks about the 3 parts of the Qun.

 

We don't really know enough about the Qun for anyone to be right, which is why it can still be debated, I just find it odd that people are so quick to claim retcon, when it was clearly started in both DA:O & DA2 that you can't experience the whole of the Qun without experiencing the Mind, Body & Soul.

 

Also people get so hung up on one statement that Sten said in DA:O, when in the same game he tells Morrigan, that she can either be a fighter or a women, she can't be both and he is trying to work out which one she is.

 

If Morrigan or the Warden had an opportunity to tell Sten that they weren't a women, it seems to me like he would've been satisfied with that.

 

I'm not seeing the evidence of the military branch not being stoic giants haven't played the entire game series, that is until now, hence why people are saying "retcon".  We've had Sten and the Arishok for years, as well as, other people's impressions of the Qun.

 

As the whole Mind, Body, and Soul...we don't have this interpretation for it since DA:O, but again just like it's George Lucas's privilege to make Greedo shoot first as a retcon, it's my option to say that it changes a lot for me and makes it cheesy.

 

 

The Qun are now just liberal socialists with horns which is "okay" and everything, they're just no longer someone I'm fearful over.  I guess that leaves Tevinter.

[Zobert]

The thing that made them interesting was that their values were so weird and alien compared to the modern values we're accustomed to. That's no longer the case. With the new lore, the rigid, oppressive society DAO and DA2 suggested has been replaced by a tolerant society that goes out of its way to accommodate its members, like a sort of idealized collectivist society. There was almost no conflict around Bull abandoning the Qun; his friend was like "lol whatever" and no real attempt was made to punish him for deserting.

 

I admit I was young when the Soviet Union collapsed so I saw the tail end of it (I was born in the USSR) but when I hear about my grandmothers USSR compared with my (Gorbachev-Yeltsin) childhood it seems so different.  I almost fantasize/idealize the 1950-60's USSR for being so stoic, strange, and manifestly different from everyone else.

[DomeWing333]

The fact the Qun went from "We pair you off when you need to make baby" to "you will be for lack of a better word raped whenever a Qunari has an urge" is a big difference. 

Not...really? Unless you're assuming that the pairing off process is somehow voluntary, "We pair you off when you need to make a baby" is pretty much just "We'll make you rape each other when we need more slaves."

[Zobert]

Yeah, if it was a genuine assassination attempt the Qun would have sent someone like this.

 

Spoiler

 

 

That was such a cool scene.

[Zobert]

Not...really? Unless you're assuming that the pairing off process is somehow voluntary, "We pair you off when you need to make a baby" is pretty much just "We'll make you rape each other when we need more slaves."

 

In the Soviet Union we were allowed to be homosexual until the population took a nosedive, then it became outlawed again.  In Battlestar Galactica abortion become outlawed when the population dwindled.

 

If you are a non-stop warring state which the Qun's 200 year war with Tevinter makes them out to be, you don't have the option to always be nice and fair to everyone.  You think about "the greater good" which was why so many people tried to escape the Soviet Union even though we were given places to live, clothing, jobs, and food.  Security and freedom don't usually go hand in hand.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not...really? Unless you're assuming that the pairing off process is somehow voluntary, "We pair you off when you need to make a baby" is pretty much just "We'll make you rape each other when we need more slaves."

The Tamassrans are in charge of the breeding program, so when the Qun only had sex for reproduction they got to choose the mates they would procreate with. That's a big difference to how it is set up now where one of their roles is to have no say and have sex with any Qunari that has a sexual urge. 

 

 

That was such a cool scene.

Yeah, it was. "We of the Qun do not abandon our own." 

 

*sigh* I miss that Qun. 

[DomeWing333]

The Tamassrans are in charge of the breeding program, so when the Qun only had sex for reproduction they got to choose the mates they would procreate with. That's a big difference to how it is set up now where one of their roles is to have no say and have sex with any Qunari that has a sexual urge. 

So the difference is that back when we only knew about the breeding program, we only knew that male Qunari were being raped (since they didn't have any say in whether or not they had sex or who they had sex with). But now that there's a "sexual healing" program, we know that male Qunari are raped for the purposes of breeding and female Qunari are raped for the purposes of "sexual healing."

 

But wait...the Tamassrans are also in charge of the "sexual healing" program. So, again, the males still don't get to choose who they have sex with, only the females do.

[Zobert]

Yeah, it was. "We of the Qun do not abandon our own." 

 

*sigh* I miss that Qun. 

 

I actually miss the Soviet Union a little.  Putin said, "We would have no soul if we didn't miss the USSR, but we would have no brain if we want to return."

 

That sums it up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So the difference is that back when we only knew about the breeding program, we only knew that male Qunari were being raped (since they didn't have any say in whether or not they had sex or who they had sex with). But now that there's a "sexual healing" program, we know that male Qunari are raped for the purposes of breeding and female Qunari are raped for the purposes of "sexual healing."

 

But wait...the Tamassrans are also in charge of the "sexual healing" program. So, again, the males still don't get to choose who they have sex with, only the females do.

Except if the males didn't like it in the old system, they could become Tal-Vashoth since their roles have them leave Qunandar so are able to. Tamassrans meanwhile never leave Qunandar so don't even have the option to run away. That's the difference. Both were terrible, but at least the former had an out for those Qunari who wouldn't want to be involved. 

 

According to The Iron Bull, whom you and others are holding his word as gospel, a Qunari can literally just walk in and do the deed. Doesn't sound like they have no choice. Or is what The Iron Bull saying wrong, and if so how can you trust anything else he says about the Qun? 

[Hiemoth]

@Hiemoth 1. Was The Sten describing "the whole Qun" to us in Origins, or was he just describing one belief from the Qun? That would be like the Christian describing the one belief of thou shalt not steal. Now, if another Christian came along and told you the exact opposite, that thou shalt steal, would you not think to yourself that one of those two people is incorrect?

 

The Sten may have been of the military branch, but that is exactly the role we are discussing here, the warrior. Assuming The Sten is ignorant of the Qun, he still sees the battlefield. He knows what soldiers are. He knows there are no women fighting as soldiers. It is not done. That said, he clearly shows that he is a dedicated follower of the Qun. He is even willing to die for his mistakes rather than walk away from the Qun's teachings. And if The Sten is not a valid source because he is not a Tamassran or whatever, then the same standard would apply to The Iron Bull, in which case you can't say the Qun would accept Krem as is.

 

2. The culture does not define what those statements mean. Words define what those statements mean. And the Qun defines what The Sten thinks. The statement about how a woman cannot be a warrior does not show what a woman is defined as, but the statement about how a woman should not wish to be a man DOES define it. The Sten says a woman cannot be a man. It is not done. There is no more to it. Tallis is not classified as a warrior. She is a spy of sorts.

 

Armaas in the Silverite Mines. "The Qun is a lie! I am Tal-Vashoth, an outcast. My life belongs to me. I do not help darkspawn, I help myself."

 

1. The Ten Commandments? Really, you think that is an example of clear guidelines? Fourth commandment in it is Honour thy Mother and Father. What does that mean? That you do everything they say, honor in spirit? Can you defy their word while still honouring them? Too abstract. Well, there is also the Fift Commandment Thou shalt not kill/murder, depending on the translation. That's clear, right? I mean it doesn't create any kind of complicated questions about self-defense, defense of others, the duty soldiers,,so forth. Besides, the period when the original commandments and the Testaments was culturally so vastly different from moden days that it is fools folly to expect their interpretations to be exactly the same in both times. It's funny, you could kind of think that the Qun culture is similarly vastly different from our culture.

 

And again, Sten's vision of the battlefield is utterly meaningless in this conversation based on the lore as it is not Sten's role to say what is and isn't within the Qun or to teach it to others. Tallis is not a warrior according to the Qun, yet she does engage in physical combat. So apparently to the Qun, being a warrior is something other than just swinging a weapon. Based on the same logic, it is quite feasible that according to the Qun being a woman means something differently than being born biologically a woman. And by the way, if you paid attention, I never claimed Iron Bull was a more trusted source than Sten, they both simply observe different facets of the Qun. If anything, Iron Bull just talks more about the Qun than Sten did. It was your insistance that Sten is the most truest source of all things the Qun because he was there first and said some things while refusing to provide any kind of context for the culture.

 

2.Of course words change meanings based on culture, that's a really weird statement to make. For example, the word husband is in several cultures, yet what it is expected from a husband is different not just across cultures, but also within a culture itself. I'm not writing that Sten didn't follow the Qun, I'm writing that there was little context given to any of those statements. For example, Sten says that he would be killed without the Qunari even listening to his report if returned without that one specific sword. Is that what the dominant culture of Ferelden expected of their soldiers? Sten's name is his position. Is that how the dominant culture views names? Yet all of this can be contributed to the Qunari being such a mystifying culture, but damn it, the terms woman and warrior mean exactly the same things to them. And yeah, Tallis can do stuff most cultures would view as warrior things because she is a spy-thing. Completely understandable.

 

And that Tal-Vashoth comment gave no context to the position. Again, it was something truly defined in DA2 as was almost all current aspects of the Qunari.

[Zobert]

Except if the males didn't like it in the old system, they could become Tal-Vashoth since their roles have them leave Qunandar so are able to. Tamassrans meanwhile never leave Qunandar so don't even have the option to run away. That's the difference. Both were terrible, but at least the former had an out for those Qunari who wouldn't want to be involved. 

 

According to The Iron Bull, whom you and others are holding his word as gospel, a Qunari can literally just walk in and do the deed. Doesn't sound like they have no choice. Or is what The Iron Bull saying wrong, and if so how can you trust anything else he says about the Qun? 

 

The Qun's popularity with gamers made them tweak it for inclusivity, removing some logical consistency but they'll keep tweaking. 

 

They will lose the Qun edge that made them something other than large people with horns and become horny socialists.  That's fine if it's what everyone wants.  People still bought Star Wars DVD's with Han no longer shooting first.