316 réponses à ce sujet

[Zobert]

1. The Ten Commandments? Really, you think that is an example of clear guidelines? Fourth commandment in it is Honour thy Mother and Father. What does that mean? That you do everything they say, honor in spirit? Can you defy their word while still honouring them? Too abstract. Well, there is also the Fift Commandment Thou shalt not kill/murder, depending on the translation. That's clear, right? I mean it doesn't create any kind of complicated questions about self-defense, defense of others, the duty soldiers,,so forth. Besides, the period when the original commandments and the Testaments was culturally so vastly different from moden days that it is fools folly to expect their interpretations to be exactly the same in both times. It's funny, you could kind of think that the Qun culture is similarly vastly different from our culture.

 

And again, Sten's vision of the battlefield is utterly meaningless in this conversation based on the lore as it is not Sten's role to say what is and isn't within the Qun or to teach it to others. Tallis is not a warrior according to the Qun, yet she does engage in physical combat. So apparently to the Qun, being a warrior is something other than just swinging a weapon. Based on the same logic, it is quite feasible that according to the Qun being a woman means something differently than being born biologically a woman. And by the way, if you paid attention, I never claimed Iron Bull was a more trusted source than Sten, they both simply observe different facets of the Qun. If anything, Iron Bull just talks more about the Qun than Sten did. It was your insistance that Sten is the most truest source of all things the Qun because he was there first and said some things while refusing to provide any kind of context for the culture.

 

2.Of course words change meanings based on culture, that's a really weird statement to make. For example, the word husband is in several cultures, yet what it is expected from a husband is different not just across cultures, but also within a culture itself. I'm not writing that Sten didn't follow the Qun, I'm writing that there was little context given to any of those statements. For example, Sten says that he would be killed without the Qunari even listening to his report if returned without that one specific sword. Is that what the dominant culture of Ferelden expected of their soldiers? Sten's name is his position. Is that how the dominant culture views names? Yet all of this can be contributed to the Qunari being such a mystifying culture, but damn it, the terms woman and warrior mean exactly the same things to them. And yeah, Tallis can do stuff most cultures would view as warrior things because she is a spy-thing. Completely understandable.

 

And that Tal-Vashoth comment gave no context to the position. Again, it was something truly defined in DA2 as was almost all current aspects of the Qunari.

 

 

Is everyone forgetting their trip to the Qun compound in DA:2 or ...I dunno, pretty much anything the actual Arishok said or did?  Does all that experience fly out the window when we want to defend the game developers for retconning?

 

Look, it's their game.  They can change it if they want.  George Lucas got to change his Star Wars mythos because he ****** wrote the thing.  Let's just not pretend though that they didn't have one intention 5 years ago and a different one now.

 

The Qunari were the bad guys of DA2 because they forced roles on people and it was considered by Hawke a type of slavery.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

All this arguing over Krem and whether he's a retcon. It seems to be that if you like the change it isn't and if you don't, it is. It's all a bit irrelevantreally, because Krem isn't of the Qun.

 

I noticed a bigger retcon. Well, bigger to me. I don't know all the lore and haven't read the books and comics where this might have been laid out in greater detail, so it may very well be me just being ignorant of the lore. Please correct me if so.

 

In DAO we had Sten say the Qunari are governed by the Mind Soul and Body of the Ataam. (or words to that effect) It sounded cool and alien.

 

In DAI Bull says well we have the, um, military, the, ah, priesthood, and the matriarchy. He didn't seem to know the governing bodies that Sten referenced, but he was sure about that matriarchy!

 

It seems to me this matriarchy was invented for DAI, to make the Qun more inclusive. Am I wrong? Sten says women can be  artisans, farmers, merchants and whatever the other 2 were. Priests were one I think. Obviously this doesn't mean they can't be leaders of any of the factions within the Qun, but now we have a 'matriarchy' shoehorned in, unnecessarily. it comes across as political correctness being forced in with a sledgehammer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All this arguing over Krem and whether he's a retcon. It seems to be that if you like the change it isn't and if you don't, it is. It's all a bit irrelevantreally, because Krem isn't of the Qun.

 

I noticed a bigger retcon. Well, bigger to me. I don't know all the lore and haven't read the books and comics where this might have been laid out in greater detail, so it may very well be me just being ignorant of the lore. Please correct me if so.

 

In DAO we had Sten say the Qunari are governed by the Mind Soul and Body of the Ataam. (or words to that effect) It sounded cool and alien.

 

In DAI Bull says well we have the, um, military, the, ah, priesthood, and the matriarchy. He didn't seem to know the governing bodies that Sten referenced, but he was sure about that matriarchy!

 

It seems to me this matriarchy was invented for DAI, to make the Qun more inclusive. Am I wrong? Sten says women can be  artisans, farmers, merchants and whatever the other 2 were. Priests were one I think. Obviously this doesn't mean they can't be leaders of any of the factions within the Qun, but now we have a 'matriarchy' shoehorned in, unnecessarily. it comes across as political correctness being forced in with a sledgehammer.

The matriarchy is the Arigena's domain, or the Mind of the Qun. The Iron Bull refers to it as the matriarchy because all members in that domain are female, just like all members in the military are men. It's been around as a concept for a while, since the Arishok references it in DA2. 

[DomeWing333]

Except if the males didn't like it in the old system, they could become Tal-Vashoth since their roles have them leave Qunandar so are able to. Tamassrans meanwhile never leave Qunandar so don't even have the option to run away. That's the difference. Both were terrible, but at least the former had an out for those Qunari who wouldn't want to be involved. 

 

According to The Iron Bull, whom you and others are holding his word as gospel, a Qunari can literally just walk in and do the deed. Doesn't sound like they have no choice. Or is what The Iron Bull saying wrong, and if so how can you trust anything else he says about the Qun? 

That applies only to the Antaam (which now we know does include some biological females). Other males who were weapons researchers or priests had about as many options as the Tamassrans.

 

Aside from which, you understand that "becoming Tal-Vashoth" isn't like quitting a job, right? It's being excommunicated from your church, banished from your society, and declared a traitor to be hunted down by everyone you used to know. The Qun is a cult. Entering it may be as simple as signing up and following orders, but leaving it is another matter entirely. Or don't you remember Ketojan?

[AresKeith]

Yeah, it was. "We of the Qun do not abandon our own."

*sigh* I miss that Qun.

That's the military branch of the Qun

[Hiemoth]

The Qun's popularity with gamers made them tweak it for inclusivity, removing some logical consistency but they'll keep tweaking. 

 

They will lose the Qun edge that made them something other than large people with horns and become horny socialists.  That's fine if it's what everyone wants.  People still bought Star Wars DVD's with Han no longer shooting first.

 

No, the reason the Qun was popular was because it was so complicated and well-constructed, much more than almost any culture created in video games. And as with all things complicated and multi-faceted, different members of that culture have different perceptions of it. Yet now, when it is being added depth that does not follow others headcanon based on historical perceptions of things, which was a weird thing to expect from a totally alien fictional culture.

 

Honestly, I do not why this is difficult to grasp. The Qun says a woman cannot be a warrior. The Qunari do not consider Krem to be a woman. Thus, Krem can be a warrior. There is no contradiction there. The Qunari is not being born as a grey horned being, by the way I love the argument that adding horns to them suddenly made them somehow mystically more hum, it is following the Qun. Being a warrior is not hacking things to pieces or engaging in combat, as evidenced by Tallis doing both and not being considered a warrior. A person's role is observed from their behaviour and abilities, not to whom they were born to. It is a culture that allows for such nuance within those strict roles, yet somehow is assumed to determine one's gender based on how they were born as.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

All this arguing over Krem and whether he's a retcon. It seems to be that if you like the change it isn't and if you don't, it is. It's all a bit irrelevantreally, because Krem isn't of the Qun.

 

I noticed a bigger retcon. Well, bigger to me. I don't know all the lore and haven't read the books and comics where this might have been laid out in greater detail, so it may very well be me just being ignorant of the lore. Please correct me if so.

 

In DAO we had Sten say the Qunari are governed by the Mind Soul and Body of the Ataam. (or words to that effect) It sounded cool and alien.

 

In DAI Bull says well we have the, um, military, the, ah, priesthood, and the matriarchy. He didn't seem to know the governing bodies that Sten referenced, but he was sure about that matriarchy!

 

It seems to me this matriarchy was invented for DAI, to make the Qun more inclusive. Am I wrong? Sten says women can be  artisans, farmers, merchants and whatever the other 2 were. Priests were one I think. Obviously this doesn't mean they can't be leaders of any of the factions within the Qun, but now we have a 'matriarchy' shoehorned in, unnecessarily. it comes across as political correctness being forced in with a sledgehammer.

 

Like I stated previously, Iron Bull is a religious spy. Even if he was being forthright about it, that does not mean he will not try to paint the Qun in a better light than it actually is to make himself and the Qun less scary to people. 

 

I mean, Hissrad makes the point that Ben-Hassrath is like the Seekers of Truth in many ways except the Seekers of Truth do not go as far as the Ben-Hassrath do. Have you seen the Seekers ? Most of them are devout religious Andrastians and tend to paint the faith in either a positive tone or an apologetic tone. Only if you confront a Seeker like Cassandra and press the issue she might say that the Chantry might have flaws but she will still defend them and try to take the "moderate" approach, if you will. 

 

Naturally, it would not be weird to assume that Iron Bull / Hissrad will do this to the Qun. With the example of Krem, he says people like Krem is accepted and that there is a label for them, Aqun-Athlok, but he does not say anything else. Perhaps the Aqun-Athlok undergo castration or chemical lobotomy to be properly women and/or men. Perhaps they will be leashed to someone like it they with the Saarebas. We also see Bull admit to the Qun's shortcomings or that is makes his team uncomfortable but he does it in whispers and he still defends the Qun. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

No, the reason the Qun was popular was because it was so complicated and well-constructed, much more than almost any culture created in video games. And as with all things complicated and multi-faceted, different members of that culture have different perceptions of it. Yet now, when it is being added depth that does not follow others headcanon based on historical perceptions of things, which was a weird thing to expect from a totally alien fictional culture.

 

Honestly, I do not why this is difficult to grasp. The Qun says a woman cannot be a warrior. The Qunari do not consider Krem to be a woman. Thus, Krem can be a warrior. There is no contradiction there. The Qunari is not being born as a grey horned being, by the way I love the argument that adding horns to them suddenly made them somehow mystically more hum, it is following the Qun. Being a warrior is not hacking things to pieces or engaging in combat, as evidenced by Tallis doing both and not being considered a warrior. A person's role is observed from their behaviour and abilities, not to whom they were born to. It is a culture that allows for such nuance within those strict roles, yet somehow is assumed to determine one's gender based on how they were born as.

 

The Qun is complicated in the same way religious dogma and cultist doctrine was complicated because all the information and dissemination lie solely with the priestly and the clerical class. 

 

Yes, that is what you get when you pigeonhole people into specific rigid roles and enforce it. You end up creating a monopoly in terms of resources, be it a monopoly of idea or monopoly of intellect or monopoly of might or monopoly of wealth instead of a free market of intellect, of ideas, etc. This leaves things open and vulnerable to corruption and eventual bankruptcy or demise. 

 

This situation is very much like the Catholic Church in Medieval Europe. I would not be surprised to learn that the Ariqun is hiding or hoarding some dark secrets or slowly becoming corrupt or what have you in the future games. 

 

Mass print the actual text and scriptures in languages that the common understand, mass publish it, devalue the priest interpretation of the texts, value the personal interpretation of the texts and the religion will lose its apparent complicated, complex and profound nature very quickly. 

 

If one were to mass print and mass publicize the Tome of Koslun in simple common tongue as well as disregard what the Tamassrans says and focus on personal interpretation, the Qun would lose its mysterious and complex nature. 

 

The Qun obtains this complex, complicated and seemingly mysterious and profound feel because the rigid structure that make it so. Its like a maze, in this case a maze built by and overseen by three coalitions.

 

Break away from that maze, give the finger to it and the maze no longer becomes complicated or profound or mysterious.

[phantomrachie]

I'm not seeing the evidence of the military branch not being stoic giants haven't played the entire game series, that is until now, hence why people are saying "retcon".  We've had Sten and the Arishok for years, as well as, other people's impressions of the Qun.

 

As the whole Mind, Body, and Soul...we don't have this interpretation for it since DA:O, but again just like it's George Lucas's privilege to make Greedo shoot first as a retcon, it's my option to say that it changes a lot for me and makes it cheesy.

 

 

The Qun are now just liberal socialists with horns which is "okay" and everything, they're just no longer someone I'm fearful over.  I guess that leaves Tevinter.

 

So one conversation that Sten has in DA:O sets up the fact that Iron Bull seeing Krem has a man is retcon, but the mind,body & soul reference also from DA:O doesn't set up the fact that the Qunari have 3 distinct areas in the Qun.

 

You realise how little sense that makes.

 

Besides it is mentioned several time that the Qunari are ruled by a Triumvirate, that each role requires different personality traits and that you can't know the Qun by just looking at one part of it.

 

The other impressions we have of the Qun are from people who've only encountered the Warriors, so their impression of the Qun is coloured by that. 

[o Ventus]

(to Draining Dragon) Ah, I always just interpretated that as the Iron Bull saying it was formality informing him of his Tal-Vashoth status, a bit redundant given he'd probably already know but that it was just the first of many future attempts. I see your point, though.

That's how I took it. It isn't *literally* a formality.

[Dutch]

No, they wouldn't. He identifies as male, therefore they would see him as male, not female. Sten says those things to the warden because while the female warden fights, she is female. There is no option in origins to identify as male unless you make a male warden. Therefore with a female identifying person the statements he makes are correct. However, Krem is not female regardless of what is (or isn't) in his pants. Again, just because the Qun is backwards in some ways doesn't mean it is in all ways. Their interpretation of gender may not be as black and white as you think. 

 

Not to mention that anything other than what is presented in the official media and by the creators is nothing but headcanon and Gaider has already clarified this point. 

 

so all of a sudden the Qunari care what others think of themselves and not the other way around? They respect what people think? Ya sure they do....

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

The matriarchy is the Arigena's domain, or the Mind of the Qun. The Iron Bull refers to it as the matriarchy because all members in that domain are female, just like all members in the military are men. It's been around as a concept for a while, since the Arishok references it in DA2. 

 

Thanks for the reply. I've never heard of Arigena. I don't remember the Arishock mentioning it. What did he say about it?

 

In any case, it seems Bioware dropped the 'mind body and soul' thing in favour of Bulls simplistic terminology, which disappoints me.

[Zobert]

No, the reason the Qun was popular was because it was so complicated and well-constructed, much more than almost any culture created in video games. And as with all things complicated and multi-faceted, different members of that culture have different perceptions of it. Yet now, when it is being added depth that does not follow others headcanon based on historical perceptions of things, which was a weird thing to expect from a totally alien fictional culture.

 

Honestly, I do not why this is difficult to grasp. The Qun says a woman cannot be a warrior. The Qunari do not consider Krem to be a woman. Thus, Krem can be a warrior. There is no contradiction there. The Qunari is not being born as a grey horned being, by the way I love the argument that adding horns to them suddenly made them somehow mystically more hum, it is following the Qun. Being a warrior is not hacking things to pieces or engaging in combat, as evidenced by Tallis doing both and not being considered a warrior. A person's role is observed from their behaviour and abilities, not to whom they were born to. It is a culture that allows for such nuance within those strict roles, yet somehow is assumed to determine one's gender based on how they were born as.

 

I don't think the Qunari of 5-6 years ago would have considered Krem a man.

[Zobert]

So one conversation that Sten has in DA:O sets up the fact that Iron Bull seeing Krem has a man is retcon, but the mind,body & soul reference also from DA:O doesn't set up the fact that the Qunari have 3 distinct areas in the Qun.

 

 

Did I say that? Nope.  You can ask me a question, you know--such as, do you disagree that the Qun had mind, body, & soul references (?) before you tell me what I think.

 

I don't believe that I've done that to you yet, tell you what you think, that is.

 

Anyway, I don't see how that makes the argument that women can be men under the Qun when pretty much it was established that your role was given to you at birth or a child.

 

 

You realise how little sense that makes.

 

Besides it is mentioned several time that the Qunari are ruled by a Triumvirate, that each role requires different personality traits and that you can't know the Qun by just looking at one part of it.

 

The other impressions we have of the Qun are from people who've only encountered the Warriors, so their impression of the Qun is coloured by that. 

 

Aren't we talking about warriors (Krem)?

[AresKeith]

I don't think the Qunari of 5-6 years ago would have considered Krem a man.

 

They would consider Krem a warrior

[Zobert]

They would consider Krem a warrior

 

And be confused like they were with my warden.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't think the Qunari of 5-6 years ago would have considered Krem a man.

 

Not  a peep from Bull about the female Inquisitor or companions fighting either. I think Bull is just more worldly that Sten was.

[phantomrachie]

And be confused like they were with my warden.

 

No they wouldn't because Krem looks like and acts like a man.

 

A female Warden looks like women and sometimes acts like a man and sometimes acts like a women.

 

There would be no confusion if a female Warden could've been like Krem and said that they were a man.

[Zobert]

People do realize no one thinks this is a good thing about the Qunari, correct?

 

My point, as is the point of others, is that the Qun were set up to be figures of fear and alien to the other races of Thedas. They are not "nice".  Long ago they were bred with dragons and were terrifying so they had to develop a strict system.

 

Regardless, the rules have changed over the years and now they're different so that's that.  No use crying over who shot first.

[AresKeith]

And be confused like they were with my warden.

 

The Female warden "acted like a woman" outside of combat which is what confused Sten

[Zobert]

No they wouldn't because Krem looks like and acts like a man.

 

A female Warden looks like women and sometimes acts like a man and sometimes acts like a women.

 

There would be no confusion if a female Warden could've been like Krem and said that they were a man.

 

What does a man look and act like?  Seriously.  What does a "woman" look and act like?  Are you telling me that "women" act and look like Joesphine only?

[Zobert]

The Female warden "acted like a woman" outside of combat which is what confused Sten

 

What does a woman act like?  How do I act that is different from a man?

[AresKeith]

People do realize no one thinks this is a good thing about the Qunari, correct?

 

My point, as is the point of others, is that the Qun were set up to be figures of fear and alien to the other races of Thedas. They are not "nice".  Long ago they were bred with dragons and were terrifying so they had to develop a strict system.

 

Regardless, the rules have changed over the years and now they're different so that's that.  No use crying over who shot first.

 

Literally no one is saying they are "nice"

[Zobert]

Oh I know!  I got this one.  I love shoes, makeup, and hate sports...right?  Or I wear pink and lots of lipstick...right? 

 

How do I act?

[phantomrachie]

What does a man look and act like?  Seriously.  What does a "woman" look and act like?  Are you telling me that "women" act and look like Joesphine only?

 

I'm talking about in terms of the Qun, since that is what we are talking about.

 

In terms of the Qun, Krem looks like how the Qun expects a man to look & acts like how it expects a man to act.

 

The Warden didn't act like how the Qun expects a women to act because she was a frontline fighter.