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[DomeWing333]

I did think it was weird that the Qun was suddenly all warm and fuzzy and accepting of diversity. Is this the same culture where someone kills you for losing your sword, mages have their eyes and mouths sewn shut, women aren't warriors, people can't choose their job or who they have children with, they can't keep their children, people are regularly brainwashed, you are not allowed to question, etc...I think it would have made for a much better story if it was just Iron Bull himself that was kind and accepting, then it would have been another point of internal conflict for him. As it was, all the harshness we'd seen and heard about previously was glossed over or not mentioned and from what we heard from Iron Bull the Qun seemed very laid back. Priests have sex with you whenever you're feeling frisky (but woe betide you if you choose a random person to have sex with for love?) people can now decide they want to live as a different gender and women who are good at fighting are just renamed to men even if they change nothing about their voice, behavior, or appearance (um what?). The Qun was interesting because it was alien, horrible, and oppressive you see elves converting to the Qun and think "their lives must have been truly horrible to make that decision."

I think the conflict was there, but was presented in a more nuanced way than what you''re talking about.

 

You have to keep in mind that despite how his personality clashes with it, Bull wants to stay with the Qun because he believes that the alternative for him is madness and becoming Tal-Vashoth. This is someone who voluntarily turned himself into the re-educators to be "fixed." 

 

So when he talks about the Qun with other people, of course he's going to do everything he can to make it seem like a good thing. This means glossing over the harsher and more restrictive aspects of the life while emphasizing the weird Qun practices that can be seen as more open or inclusive. It's classic cognitive dissonance.

[AresKeith]

I think the conflict was there, but was presented in a more nuanced way than what you''re talking about.

 

You have to keep in mind that despite how his personality clashes with it, Bull wants to stay with the Qun because he believes that the alternative for him is madness and becoming Tal-Vashoth. This is someone who voluntarily turned himself into the re-educators to be "fixed." 

 

So when he talks about the Qun with other people, of course he's going to do everything he can to make it seem like a good thing. This means glossing over the harsher and more restrictive aspects of the life while emphasizing the weird Qun practices that can be seen as more open or inclusive. It's classic cognitive dissonance.

 

And that honestly does make sense given that Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath

[Panda]

So none read my text how Iran is more accepting of transgenders than most of countries in the world. In other hand they are liberal and accepting towards other liberal things like sexual orientations.

 

Qun is like Iran in this, liberal in some aspects and conservative in some.

 

Thus, it's not retcon, it's just aspect that Qun has.

[Saphiron123]

You should be careful when making generalizations about the human race as a whole. There are many societies in the world (some of which are fairly undeveloped) that have long accepted certain types of gender non-conformity in various ways. You can see a list here. The albanian sworn virgins appear to be the closest approximation I can find for the Aqun-aathlok.

About 98% of human history would disagree. If that wasn't the case, inclusiveness wouldn't be such a ground breaking concept today, and the violence and suffering people have endured because they're different would have been far less.

Face it man, the human race is pretty F'ed up towards people who are different. And that's the issue, here, inclusiveness is awesome, but Bioware used to be a company that wrote about prejudice in all it's ugliness and addressed it head on. Elves in the denerim alienage for instance and the city elf origin. Gaider though just say "Nope, that's not what we meant. Everyone's cool and the quanri are super inclusive now". That's just bad rewriting. Seriously, listen to all Sten's dialogue with Wynne and the warden and the other women in origins, and tell me Gaider's explanation makes sense.

By all means have ferelden be an inclusive place, but the qunari are unique, they're savage and they're unaccepting of those who don't follow the qun (the Arishok literally says the people of the world will either follow the qun or die). They sew mages mouths shut and treat them like animals (10:1 this is gone in the next dragon age game as well) and they believe it's their role to purify the world. They were different and alien and compelling. Now not only has what they say changed, but even their looks.

Let's face it though. The art style, the lore, hell magic itself has been retconned and rewritten to the point it's barely recognizable. Did every mage in thedas suddenly forget healing magic is a thing? Were paralysis spells to useful and so mages just decided they wouldn't bother with them anymore?

Gaider sadly never honored the writing or the mechanics or the style of past games. It didn't exactly shock me when he took the DA2 qunari and wrote them out of existence. Hopefully weekes will do better.

[Saphiron123]

So none read my text how Iran is more accepting of transgenders than most of countries in the world. In other hand they are liberal and accepting towards other liberal things like sexual orientations.

 

Qun is like Iran in this, liberal in some aspects and conservative in some.

 

Thus, it's not retcon, it's just aspect that Qun has.

Iran just upheld the law that allows homosexual behavior to be punished with stoning last year... 

It is a retcon though, seriously, play origins, take sten out with the women (especially wynne) and read gaider's comments on women warriors and qunari. He sort of changes whatever he wants whenever he wants.

[DomeWing333]

About 98% of human history would disagree. If that wasn't the case, inclusiveness wouldn't be such a ground breaking concept today, and the violence and suffering people have endured because they're different would have been far less.

"Inclusiveness" means different things to different groups. One culture might find believe a man with 6 fingers to be cursed and shun him, another might find believe him to be blessed and worship him, and still more might not treat him any differently than a man with 5 fingers. You can't assume that what real-life, western culture defines as "other" is what real-life, non-western cultures define as other or what fictional, western culture defines as other. And as a fictional, non-western society, that goes double for Qunari. 

By all means have ferelden be an inclusive place, but the qunari are unique, they're savage and they're unaccepting of those who don't follow the qun (the Arishok literally says the people of the world will either follow the qun or die). They sew mages mouths shut and treat them like animals (10:1 this is gone in the next dragon age game as well) and they believe it's their role to purify the world. They were different and alien and compelling. 

We know that in Fereldan and Orlais, skin color racism, homophobia, and sexism aren't really prevalent, but you can't honestly look at the way elves and mages are treated and not call that prejudice.

 

In the albanian sworn virgins case that I mentioned, does the practice of having sworn virgins make that culture seem more or less alien to you? To me, it makes them seem more alien and therefore more interesting. A patriarchal society where women are treated as property and at most half the worth of a man? Been there, done that. But that same society with a third gender in which women can be treated entirely as men if they just swear not to have sex? That's...bonkers to me. And makes the culture infinitely more interesting. Same with the Qunari.

[Panda]

Iran just upheld the law that allows homosexual behavior to be punished with stoning last year... 

It is a retcon though, seriously, play origins, take sten out with the women (especially wynne) and read gaider's comments on women warriors and qunari. He sort of changes whatever he wants whenever he wants.

 

And that just confirms what I said. Culture can be liberal about some things and some not.

 

I have played Origins 500+ hours, I don't think I want to play it anymore According Iron Bull Krem is seen as male in qunari's society so it doesn't matter what Qunari thinks of women in his case. I still think that this is just quirk that Qunari society has, since it doesn't argue with Sten's words that much. I think it means that transgenders are not what they want to be, but what they are (they aren't what they biologically are, but what they mentally are) so there is no retcon in my opinion.

[Saphiron123]

This.

Bioware's petty attempts to try to appear "liberal" and "politically correct" with the Qunari is quite frankly pathetic.

It actually goes to show you how people take a fictional world and fictional people way too seriously when mentally mature people are supposed to be capable of not doing that. Kinda like religion and deities really.

The Qunari portrayed by the Iron Bull and Qunari in DAI = / = Qunari portrayed by Sten and by Dragon Age 2.

Now I would not actually mind if this series of mental gymnastics performed by Hissrad was an attempt to cope with the colossal dissonance due to his PTSD that he suffers from serving under the Qun.

Damn, that arc about a soldier and a spy suffering from PTSD and suffering from the burden of having to choose between his indoctrinated home culture versus the world would have made for an incredible character arc and storyline. We do not always see portrayals of war veterans and intelligence agency veterans who have PTSD. That would have made for a properly mature and interesting content.

Seriously, who here would prefer a Qunari follower with a character arc about suffering from severe psychological trauma and having to deal with his experience vs indoctrinated world views as opposed to a Qunari is that surprising open minded that f**ks everything ?

I mean, Iron Bull could have been like Batman from The Dark Knight Returns. In that comic, Batman is depicted as someone who suffering from dual personality of sorts, one is Bruce Wayne and the other is Batman. Imagine how cool it would be to have Iron Bull as someone, whom after all this shite he has seen and has been put through, develops some form of dual personality like that where one is Hissrad and the other is the Iron Bull.

That would have been really good, really deep, dark, gritty and mature.

But nope. That part is pretty much glossed over except for a few lines here and there. There is little mention of it at all. Instead its all about "liberalism ftw !" and BDSM sex.

I guess the motto for the Bioware writing team would be :- Decline In Quality With Each Game.

Iron Bull and the Qunari had tremendous potential but got ruined by the need to appeal to mainstream and the need to appeal to fanservice.

*Disgusted noise*

Yeah I agree. The changes to the Qunari feel forced, it wasn't about the story, it was about shoehorning in politics.

It wasn't necessary though because bioware has already done an excellent job of being inclusive, instead they took the most intersting foreign culture in the game, made the Qunari look like big doe-eyed humans with horns, and made their culture the same as everyone else.

Stuff like the Sarabass and the violent nature of Qunari expansionism seems to have been written out in favor of modern day politics, which is their right, but they're writing the same politics on every front, so ironically making the Qunari super inclusive just makes them the same as everyone else.

They had a distinct and alien culture, and unless weekes makes yet more changes, that's hardly the case. Making up words doesn't make Qunari culture unique, it was unique becuase it was written completely differently.

And like everything in dragon age, they changed it.

[Saphiron123]

A lot of things about the Qunari are wobbly. Three games in, and I don't even know who they are, as a faction/race/etc. This is only one issue. It's probably getting more attention than it deserves.

This. I kind of prefer the way they did it in mass effect, gay or straight, everything was just okay. It was simple, it didn't change the story to make political statements and it didn't have to.

Dragon age now is getting so concerned with the politics now that they adjust the story to fit the statement they want to make, rather then telling a great story that makes a statement on it's own.

Men could be with men and women could be with women and it just was. That's how to write inclusiveness in a game, or create a prejudicial system and take it head on.

Making up a bunch of Qunari words and making it the entire purpose of a character and modifying existing lore around it is forced and doesn't have any sort of impact, aside to retcon the history of the game.

Considering dragon age is a game that builds itself on it's own history through our decisions, I think past writing means very little to Gaider.

It's kind of like the new fantastic four movie - people scream racism that people are annoyed the human torch is suddenly an adopted kid kf a different race, but that isn't it. The fantastic four is what? 60 or 70 years old? The human torch and invisible woman have been biological brothers and sisters for longer then the director has been alive. Some people are bigots, absolutely, but I think most people are just annoyed some guy comes along as says "screw 70 years of history, I'm retconning this and making it better".

Krem's a solid character, if a little underused. Dorian was a great addition, he might be my favourite party member. The altering of the Qunari in both style and philosophy though from da2 to DAI, seriously weak. They were already something special, they didn't need to be made "better" by Gaider.

[sandalisthemaker]

In my opinion, the Qunari and the Qun have gone steeply downhill ever since Sten.

 

Sten and the idea of the qunari as a whole impressed me. Here was a fresh alien race, made alien by their habits and culture and ways of speech, not by basically taking a human and slapping exotic looks on him/her and calling it a day. Then they grew horns. And now we have the Iron Bull, a character who often acts and talks like a human but looks wildly exotic - the 180 degree turn from Sten. Meh.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I like the Bull and would love to share some drinks with the guy, I just don't like what the qunari have become by now. 

 

What really grates me though is the portrayal of the Qun in DA:I. The existence of re-educators who apparently also work with qunari who were born in and grew up within the Qun baffles me. Why does this even happen? It's like the Qun as a whole is aware of being unnatural and forced, a way of life that a normal qunari (as in the race, I don't use the K-word) would not choose for themselves if they had a choice in it. DA:I gave me the feeling that qunari are just humans with horns, who would act like humans if they weren't forced under the Qun... as opposed to being a race whose evolution gave them a natural strong sense and preference for collectivism, unity and efficiency over personal freedom.

 

Meh, again.

 

 

Actually, it's been implied that the Qunari need the Qun (and perhaps that's why the Qun was established in the first place) in order to maintain some semblance of order in their society.  Without it, they degenerate quickly into chaotic savagery and lawlessness (perhaps due to their dragon blood).  

[Nefla]

I think the conflict was there, but was presented in a more nuanced way than what you''re talking about.

 

You have to keep in mind that despite how his personality clashes with it, Bull wants to stay with the Qun because he believes that the alternative for him is madness and becoming Tal-Vashoth. This is someone who voluntarily turned himself into the re-educators to be "fixed." 

 

So when he talks about the Qun with other people, of course he's going to do everything he can to make it seem like a good thing. This means glossing over the harsher and more restrictive aspects of the life while emphasizing the weird Qun practices that can be seen as more open or inclusive. It's classic cognitive dissonance.

I actually really like the idea that Bull is either lying about the Qun or in flat out denial about it but that doesn't seem to be the case based on David Gaider's angry reactions to people saying the Qun was retconned. It wasn't clarified as "Bull is just trying to show the Qun in the best possible light" but rather "Sten was wrong and didn't know everything about Qunari culture and his words could technically be reinterpreted to fit this new version we put in."

 

A big part of why it didn't work for me is that Bull is the only Qunari in the entire game. We don't see any others with a different perspective. No rigid militants like the DA2 Qunari and Sten, no disillusioned and rebellious Tal Vashoth that would paint a darker picture and leave us wondering which is true, etc...

[calvinien]

Sigh. It works fine. Sten wasn't flummoxed that the fwarden had lady bits. He was flummoxed that she identified as a woman.

 

Iron bull even comments on that. He considers cassandra to be male, at least when she's in armour.

[Lumix19]

I think the real issue here is that most people have taken scraps of information from Sten and the Arishok and built a whole headcanon on what the Qun "definitively is". And now the writers are actually showing different sides of the Qun they're suddenly "changing it".

[AresKeith]

I actually really like the idea that Bull is either lying about the Qun or in flat out denial about it but that doesn't seem to be the case based on David Gaider's angry reactions to people saying the Qun was retconned. It wasn't clarified as "Bull is just trying to show the Qun in the best possible light" but rather "Sten was wrong and didn't know everything about Qunari culture and his words could technically be reinterpreted to fit this new version we put in."

A big part of why it didn't work for me is that Bull is the only Qunari in the entire game. We don't see any others with a different perspective. No rigid militants like the DA2 Qunari and Sten, no disillusioned and rebellious Tal Vashoth that would paint a darker picture and leave us wondering which is true, etc...

He wasn't saying Sten was wrong, Sten looks at it from a different perspective given his role in the Qun

[Nefla]

He wasn't saying Sten was wrong, Sten looks at it from a different perspective given his role in the Qun

Sten didn't just accept the female warden as aqun athlok, he didn't mention it and argued that she couldn't be female and a warrior. This makes sense because they didn't have that concept back then and "you must unwillingly become transgender in order to be a warrior" was clearly not what they had intended with the Qunari at that time.

[daveliam]

I think the real issue here is that most people have taken scraps of information from Sten and the Arishok and built a whole headcanon on what the Qun "definitively is". And now the writers are actually showing different sides of the Qun they're suddenly "changing it".

 

Exactly, it would be like asking someone who grew up in a fundamentalist compound about what "Christians" think and then meeting someone who is a "holidays only" Catholic what "Christians" think.  They are going to be different because those people will have different takes on it. 

[9TailsFox]

Actually, it's been implied that the Qunari need the Qun (and perhaps that's why the Qun was established in the first place) in order to maintain some semblance of order in their society.  Without it, they degenerate quickly into chaotic savagery and lawlessness (perhaps due to their dragon blood).  

You right. And If I understand correctly. Qunari is not humans with horns, but elf's with horns. Some magical experiment involving dragon blood. Some speculate Qunari was created in elf's "gods" war. To simply fight war.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Considering this is a concept that most of the human race is still learning to accept, would a violent race of grey Giants who follow the strictest religion in thedas really get that concept?

Inclusion is great, but it is honestly a bit of a retcon. I mean, try and explain the idea to any medieval warrior society in all of history? Probably wouldn't be greeted with kindness and understanding... I just don't see sten getting that. Hell, forget what he said about the warden, put him in a party with wynne and he's super clear about the fact he thinks she's wasting her life in a fantasy. He even says you can't choose to be anything but what you are.

That's Sten's opinion as written by bioware, I guess it's their right to retcon the qunari and make them happy inclusive types,mbut I kind of liked them as religious fanatics... Understanding? No, but certainly unique. Next thing you know the darkspawn will be making speeches about accepting everyone instead of eating them.

I'm kind of with OP, everyone deserves to be included, but this feels forced. I think it's awesome that ferelden is so open minded, but if corypheus comes back and starts preaching about tolerance my suspension of disbelief will be long gone.


Gaider didn't write Sten or the qunari in da2, Mary Kirby did, he just retconned everything sten said and made up an explanation after the fact. His right, but they were more interesting as savage warriors who wanted you to join the Qun or die.

How are they savage? By what standard are you judging savagery?

They're rigid, but they're rigid in a very specific way, and one that doesn't conform to human ideas about identity.

If you are a Qunari warrior, then you are male. All other activities available to you are those of a male. Any female behaviour in combination with male behaviour is unacceptable. But for the Qunari, it's always about behaviour, not biology.

That's why they're the least racist Thedosian culture, as well.

[9TailsFox]

Exactly, it would be like asking someone who grew up in a fundamentalist compound about what "Christians" think and then meeting someone who is a "holidays only" Catholic what "Christians" think.  They are going to be different because those people will have different takes on it. 

Sten. Confused how female warden is warrior. If iron bull is right. Sten wouldn't be confused he just call female warden man.

[daveliam]

Sten. Confused how female warden is warrior. If iron bull is right. Sten wouldn't be confused he just call female warden man.

 

Not necessarily.  He's confused that she still considers herself a she.  He says something like, "You're a warrior?  But you are also a woman?  You can't be both."  Or something to that effect. 

 

I agree that back in DA: O, the writers had no intention of creating the aqun-athlok.  I'm just saying that I'm not seeing any direct conflict with what Sten says versus what Bull says.  I see it as an expansion of lore, not a retcon. 

[AresKeith]

Not necessarily.  He's confused that she still considers herself a she.  He says something like, "You're a warrior?  But you are also a woman?  You can't be both."  Or something to that effect. 

 

I agree that back in DA: O, the writers had no intention of creating the aqun-athlok.  I'm just saying that I'm not seeing any direct conflict with what Sten says versus what Bull says.  I see it as an expansion of lore, not a retcon. 

 

The problem here is that half of BSN likes to make that look like a bad thing all the time

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sten. Confused how female warden is warrior. If iron bull is right. Sten wouldn't be confused he just call female warden man.

Sten has seen her be a woman. She wears women's clothing. She might have flirted with Alistair. Or giggled with Leliana talking about shoes. She hasn't corrected any NPCs who treat her as a woman. People use female pronouns to describe her.

The thing I like about the Qunari is that they force us to think about complex issues complexly, something people rarely do.