316 réponses à ce sujet

[Dutch]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced with the Qunari accepting women as warriors because they identify as a man. The fact that the Qunari do what they do to mages and not care about what they think is enough to prove that they've been retconned.

DAI grapher is right; Krem would be re-educated in Qun society to identify as a women because that is what she ultimately is in the eyes of the Qun.

[Dai Grepher]

 I don't get your logic now at all. Gaider was in charge of DA series and builded Thedas during DAO that Sten was in. Patrick Weekes wrote Iron Bull and is charge of DA series at the moment and his words are now canon (in your logic), but Sten from DAO overrules Iron Bull's words? That doesn't make sense. What you are saying is that Patrick Weekes words are now canon and they are words of Iron Bull as well and thus can't be overruled by DAO character?

 

I never wrote that either Gaider's or Weeks' opinions were canon. I personally believe they are NOT canon. What I wrote was that for people who considered Gaider's opinion to be canon while he was lead writer should now admit that it definitely isn't canon now that he has left. Again, not that it ever was canon (in my opinion).

[Shechinah]

(to Dutch) I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how the way the Qun deals with mages are relatable to how they deal with gender as the two are very different from each other. The Qun sees mages as being in constant danger of possessions and do not believe that even the mages themselves can know if they are possessed or has been compromised in some way.

[Dai Grepher]

Also, what I consider canon is the established lore. The Sten said what he said in Origins. That is canon. The Iron Bull contradicts The Sten's words. The Iron Bull's credibility is highly suspect. The Sten is a devout follower of the Qun. He is also the first source we are given regarding Qunari beliefs. The Iron Bull struggles with the Qun. Therefore, The Iron Bull is likely living up to his title of Hissrad (liar). The Iron Bull also has reason to lie, that being to placate Krem.

[daveliam]

Also, what I consider canon is the established lore. The Sten said what he said in Origins. That is canon. The Iron Bull contradicts The Sten's words. The Iron Bull's credibility is highly suspect. The Sten is a devout follower of the Qun. He is also the first source we are given regarding Qunari beliefs. The Iron Bull struggles with the Qun. Therefore, The Iron Bull is likely living up to his title of Hissrad (liar). The Iron Bull also has reason to lie, that being to placate Krem.

 

Seems like a stretch.  There's literally nothing in the established lore that directly contradicts with what Iron Bull says.  There are some things that you could interpret as conflicts if you want, but nothing direct.  If you want to headcanon that he's lying, go for it.  But that's what it is, a headcanon.

[Shechinah]

(To Dai Grepher) It should be noted that Sten also says that you cannot sum a race or a society up in a few words such "elves exceed at poetry"

[daveliam]

(To Dai Grepher) It should be noted that Sten also says that you cannot sum a race or a society up in a few words such "elves exceed at poetry"

 

Poverty.  Although, I'm sure some of them are great at poetry too!  Not as good as the Poet Tree, but good, I'm sure.  Probably better at poetry about poverty!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Poverty.  Although, I'm sure some of them are great at poetry too!  Not as good as the Poet Tree, but good, I'm sure.  Probably better at poetry about poverty!

Must be posted.

[Fredward]

Do people consider the idea of a SJW devaluing? Is that why it's used as an insult?

[Dai Grepher]

It isn't headcanon. The Sten states that females cannot be warriors under the Qun. The Sten states that females cannot be males under the Qun. Period.

[9TailsFox]

Do people consider the idea of a SJW devaluing? Is that why it's used as an insult?

Yes and Yes.

[Dai Grepher]

(To Dai Grepher) It should be noted that Sten also says that you cannot sum a race or a society up in a few words such "elves exceed at poetry"

 

The Sten was not summarizing an entire race or people. He was stating Qunari belief on matters of gender and combat.

[Fredward]

Yes and Yes.

 

But why?

[daveliam]

It isn't headcanon. The Sten states that females cannot be warriors under the Qun. The Sten states that females cannot be males under the Qun. Period.

Again. No contradiction to what Bull says since an aqun-athlok warrior is a male.

[Namea]

Krem isn't female, he's male. 

No where in the official lore does it state that the Qun doesn't accept gender over sex. If Krem were just a woman who liked to fight and dress like a guy, the qun wouldn't see him as a warriour. However, because he fully identifies as a man and that is his actual gender (Remember, gender and sex are NOT the same.) the qun would accept him as a man and therefore be fine with his being a warriour. 

 

Just because the culture seems backwards in some senses doesn't mean that they can be completely summed up as backwards. There are tribes that still practice freakin' cannibalism and societies that don't believe in hygiene that accept the idea of gender not equalling sex or the idea of gender not being a strictly black and white male or female thing. 

[Winged Silver]

It isn't headcanon. The Sten states that females cannot be warriors under the Qun. The Sten states that females cannot be males under the Qun. Period.

 

 

This is a conversation that's been brought up a couple of times, if anyone is interested.

 

I didn't interpret Sten as saying women cannot be men. He doesn't understand why they would wish to be (if they wanted to fight). Krem wanting to fight is indicative that he isn't a woman, as far as the Qun is concerned. 

[daveliam]

It isn't headcanon. The Sten states that females cannot be warriors under the Qun. The Sten states that females cannot be males under the Qun. Period.

Also, saying Sten is correct so therefore Bull must be lying because Sten came first IS headcanon.

[Saphiron123]

[quote name="Dutch" post="18829831" timestamp="1426873898"]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced with the Qunari accepting women as warriors because they identify as a man. The fact that the Qunari do what they do to mages and not care about what they think is enough to prove that they've been retconned.

DAI grapher is right; Krem would be re-educated in Qun society to identify as a women because that is what she ultimately is in the eyes of the Qun.[/quote

I agree totally. It doesn't make sense in the narrative.

[Saphiron123]

[quote name="Dutch" post="18829831" timestamp="1426873898"]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced with the Qunari accepting women as warriors because they identify as a man. The fact that the Qunari do what they do to mages and not care about what they think is enough to prove that they've been retconned.

DAI grapher is right; Krem would be re-educated in Qun society to identify as a women because that is what she ultimately is in the eyes of the Qun.[/quote

I agree totally. It doesn't make sense in the narrative.

[Saphiron123]

This is a conversation that's been brought up a couple of times, if anyone is interested.

I didn't interpret Sten as saying women cannot be men. He doesn't understand why they would wish to be (if they wanted to fight). Krem wanting to fight is indicative that he isn't a woman, as far as the Qun is concerned.

He also expands on what he says to the warden over several conversations with wynne. He considers her wanting to fight the blight to be a fantasy.

[Dai Grepher]

@daveliam Assuming aqun-athlok actually exist outside The Iron Bull's mind, this would only mean that the Qun recognizes the existence of those who live like the opposite gender. We have a similar term, "transgender". What is done with them is another matter entirely. According to the Qun of Origins, these people would be re-educated to free them of their "frustration" as The Sten calls it. The only alternative I see coming anywhere close to what The Iron Bull claims is that the aqun-athlok are not considered male or female, and are thus allowed to fight as warriors, as only females are disallowed from being warriors.

 

The Sten coming first means that his words are the established lore. The Iron Bull is the new addition, and thus the one making the contradictory statements.

 

@Namea That is your opinion of Krem. The Qunari may or may not share it. That is what this topic is about.

[Saphiron123]

I never wrote that either Gaider's or Weeks' opinions were canon. I personally believe they are NOT canon. What I wrote was that for people who considered Gaider's opinion to be canon while he was lead writer should now admit that it definitely isn't canon now that he has left. Again, not that it ever was canon (in my opinion).

DAO established the world. Gaider altered it as he saw fit, but he still shows very little respect for the original lore.

Which is a pity because Sten was far more interesting then Bull, whose personality could belong to any human warrior in a tavern and just happens to be Qunari.

[Dutch]

Krem isn't female, he's male.
No where in the official lore does it state that the Qun doesn't accept gender over sex. If Krem were just a woman who liked to fight and dress like a guy, the qun wouldn't see him as a warriour. However, because he fully identifies as a man and that is his actual gender (Remember, gender and sex are NOT the same.) the qun would accept him as a man and therefore be fine with his being a warriour.

Just because the culture seems backwards in some senses doesn't mean that they can be completely summed up as backwards. There are tribes that still practice freakin' cannibalism and societies that don't believe in hygiene that accept the idea of gender not equalling sex or the idea of gender not being a strictly black and white male or female thing.

1) Why would the Qunari care about what Krem thinks? If Krem joined the Qun or was enslaved they would think of Krem as being a women. Period. Why would they care about what he(she) thinks?

[daveliam]

Let me ask you this: Where in the lore does it say that a male who was born a female and wishes to be a warrior would be reeducated because of frustrations? Because I haven't seen that anywhere. I've seen things that touch on aspects of that tangentially but nothing that says it specifically. That's why I don't think it's a retcon I think it's an deepening of the lore.

[Zobert]

The Sten was not summarizing an entire race or people. He was stating Qunari belief on matters of gender and combat.

 

How do you know he was referring to gender and not sex?  Did he say the word "gender"?  I'll have to look it up.

 

Also, many of us "cis" women who are stuck with periods, menopause, and lovely things like that understand "woman" to be "us" and all that goes with "us"...don't assume we're fine with being excluded from the female gender.

 

I'm not.  "Woman" is all that I am.  When you say "woman" that's "me".  It's not "maybe" me.  It is "me".  Woman = vagina laden people.  It could also mean people who wish to identify as "woman" but it does not negate us.

 

That's why MTF woman to be called "women" not transwomen or transfemales...they want the whole kit and kaboodle of "woman".

 

Say "woman" as Sten did and you mean "woman" and quite frankly to say otherwise is offensive to a great many of us.  No one asked me if I wanted to become a ciswoman, or ask me if I wanted my gender detached from my sex.

 

I have to deal with periods, period pains, the chance of getting cervical or ovarian cancer, breast cancer, etc. whether I **** women or men in my life.  Lesbian, bi, and straight women are women.

 

So when Sten says "but how since you are a woman?"  He means me, the chick next to me, the one two cubes over, etc.