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[Winged Silver]

He also expands on what he says to the warden over several conversations with wynne. He considers her wanting to fight the blight to be a fantasy.

 

I've never heard this banter, but I'll assume it goes something along the lines of "Wynne, you fighting the Blight is actually you just fantasizing about being a man" - Sten (if you have a link to a vid, or remember the gist of the banter, please let me know). 

 

If Wynne were to say she identified as a man, Sten would have to decide between two truths:

 

1.) Wynne is a woman, and fighting the Blight. This contradicts what the Qun says.

 

2.) Wynne, who identifies as a man, does 'manly' actions to confirm her status. Therefore, under the Qun she must be a man, as she both embraces the identity and acts accordingly to it.

 

I would think that those who follow the Qun would just accept the second, as it fits their given view on the world around them. If a Qunari accepted what the first option said, then they would be rejecting ideas of the Qun. 

[Geth Supremacy]

Pre-Established Fact: There are no warriors that are female amongst Qun society.

Retcon by SJW Bioware: Krem would fit in prefectly in that society being a warrior according to Bull despite her being biologically female so she can't be a soldier!

Qunari are very liberal eh?

 

I'd like to know what and why they did the Qunari the way they did.  Unless its to "weaken" them up because in DA4 the storyline is "Vints vs Qun" until the "big baddie" comes along.  When you do that you take so much away from it.  I was bothered by it for a while...no  i'm just like "whatever"  I'd still like to know the real reason they watered it down so much....at this point its just for curiosity sake though.  And not just this particular thing, but all the things they went back on.  In 1 game the Qun went from amazing to.....   and you can tell by my name how much I loved it.  Not to mention my posts and stuff pre DAI

[Fredward]

Let's try this: sex is whether you have a penis and vagina yeah? Gender is the associated behaviours that go with having a penis or a vagina. These are learned  behaviours, they are not inherent, much. Now if we have a society, like the Qun that, in part, defines your place in the world based off your gender and your gender is defined by the kinds of actions you undertake and prefer aren't they just allowing the actions to shape your gender/identity instead of slapping a gender on you at birth and moulding you to better fit it? In a society that abhors waste this makes sense, utilize something optimally, use a tool's natural shape and refine it rather than making it something else. This makes sense right?

 

Sten's confusion does not stem from biology (he doesn't say "I saw you squatting to take a ******, you can't be a soldier") it rests on the identification of female while undertaking behaviours that a female is not supposed to. Is this SJW? I don't know? Maybe? Does it matter? It's not a retcon either way. Also it makes sense for a society that abhors waste, like I said. The idea that it's terribly 'progressive' to see gender and sex as separate is an artifact of OUR culture, there's no inherent reason for it to be.

[Wulfram]

The Wynne dialogue is

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Wynne: I beg your pardon?
• Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
• Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
• Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
• Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
• Sten: As you wish.

 

I think it is something of a retcon, but a good one.  The new Qunari doctrine expressed fits better with the general characterisation of the Qun.

 

I'd also say that it doesn't really make the Qunari more enlightened.  It works out for Krem the Warrior because his chosen profession fits with Qunari prejudice, it'd be no good for Krem the Accountant

[Panda]

I never wrote that either Gaider's or Weeks' opinions were canon. I personally believe they are NOT canon. What I wrote was that for people who considered Gaider's opinion to be canon while he was lead writer should now admit that it definitely isn't canon now that he has left. Again, not that it ever was canon (in my opinion).

 

There isn't anyone whose words are more canon than lead writers though, since they build the world and direct all other writers. If we don't follow their words I guess we all just have to live with our headcanons about the game and believe they are right no matter what canon says.

 

Idk, I just disagree ^^

[line_genrou]

The writers don't act in a vacuum. They work in the same room. They bounce ideas of each other and probably bounce each other off one another.

 

Not really, that's why we got the ME3 ending. Prevous lead writer left, someone took over and changed the already planned ending.

[phantomrachie]

I don't see it has a retcon, I see it has an expansion of the lore.

 

In game, most of what we know about the Qunari comes from four people, Sten, The Arishok, Tallis and The Iron Bull.

 

Each of these people have brought their own perspective to the Qun, each have added to our knowledge and through each we learn that the Qun is not as straightforward as we have been lead to believe. 

 

According to the Qun each member works together for the greater good, each part of the Qun is like a different part of a persons body and we can't understand the whole thing by looking at the small pieces we have been given. 

 

Iron Bull's attitude and description of the Qun follows on very much from what Tallis told Hawke. The Arishok's attitude and description of the Qun follows on from what Sten told the Warden. 

 

Notice how the people with similar roles, seem to have the same understanding of the Qun.

 

This is the nature of how the Qun is taught. 

[Saphiron123]

How do you know he was referring to gender and not sex?  Did he say the word "gender"?  I'll have to look it up.

 

Also, many of us "cis" women who are stuck with periods, menopause, and lovely things like that understand "woman" to be "us" and all that goes with "us"...don't assume we're fine with being excluded from the female gender.

 

I'm not.  "Woman" is all that I am.  When you say "woman" that's "me".  It's not "maybe" me.  It is "me".  Woman = vagina laden people.  It could also mean people who wish to identify as "woman" but it does not negate us.

 

That's why MTF woman to be called "women" not transwomen or transfemales...they want the whole kit and kaboodle of "woman".

 

Say "woman" as Sten did and you mean "woman" and quite frankly to say otherwise is offensive to a great many of us.  No one asked me if I wanted to become a ciswoman, or ask me if I wanted my gender detached from my sex.

 

I have to deal with periods, period pains, the chance of getting cervical or ovarian cancer, breast cancer, etc. whether I **** women or men in my life.  Lesbian, bi, and straight women are women.

 

So when Sten says "but how since you are a woman?"  He means me, the chick next to me, the one two cubes over, etc.

He did not. Interesting and refreshing comment though.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I would really like to meet someone under the Arigena's domain. We have heard the Qun from people under the Arishok's domain(Sten, Arishok) and from people under the Ariqun's domain(Tallis, The Iron Bull) but not a single source from the Arigena's domain. We have an idea of how the Body and the Soul see the Qun, but not the Mind. 

[Dai Grepher]

I've never heard this banter, but I'll assume it goes something along the lines of "Wynne, you fighting the Blight is actually you just fantasizing about being a man" - Sten (if you have a link to a vid, or remember the gist of the banter, please let me know). 

 

If Wynne were to say she identified as a man, Sten would have to decide between two truths:

 

1.) Wynne is a woman, and fighting the Blight. This contradicts what the Qun says.

 

2.) Wynne, who identifies as a man, does 'manly' actions to confirm her status. Therefore, under the Qun she must be a man, as she both embraces the identity and acts accordingly to it.

 

I would think that those who follow the Qun would just accept the second, as it fits their given view on the world around them. If a Qunari accepted what the first option said, then they would be rejecting ideas of the Qun. 

 

3.) Wynne needs to be re-educated to fulfill a female role.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We do in the comic at least. 

Who? The only Qunari from the comics I remember is Sten as the new Arishok, thus under the Arishok's domain, and Rasaan who is a Tamassran, which is under the Ariqun's domain.

[phantomrachie]

Of those 4, only Sten and Arishok seemed like Qunari to me in the usual sense.

 

Tallis and Iron Bull are uncertain where they stand... which is the antithesis of the Qun.

 

In addition to that, we briefly met Salit. Who was also troubled with the Qun. Also a Ben Hassarath like Tallis and Bull. I kind of wonder if their position makes them that way. They're all crappy Qunari.

 

Why arbitrarily decide that Sten and Arishok are the proper Qunai and the others are crappy?

 

We've 4 main contributors to our knowledge of the Qun and the are from different parts of the Qun. If anything that would lead us to conclude that the traits needed to be a Warrior in the Qun are those that Sten and the Arishok have, and the traits needed to be Ben Hassarath are different.

 

As Iron Bull said, when they found out he could lie AND fight, he was put into the Ben Hassarath.

 

All we can say from this, is that different areas of the Qun need different personality traits. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why arbitrarily decide that Sten and Arishok are the proper Qunai and the others are crappy?

Well to be fair the Arishok is part of the Triumvirate, the Qun's leaders. So his explanations hold more credibility than others. That said, he flat out states he isn't properly equipped to teach the Qun. 

[Winged Silver]

3.) Wynne needs to be re-educated to fulfill a female role.
 

 

Why? Besides being a waste of resources, Wynne, if she identified as a man, wouldn't be breaking any taboos of Qunari society. Their primary issue is with women acting in roles perceived to be under the male domain. If Wynne identifies as a man, and acts like one, then Wynne would be meeting all requirements. The issues only arise when someone declares themselves a woman, as well as some masculine role. Krem is maintaining his identity as a man, as well as acting out the role of a man.

[Dai Grepher]

There isn't anyone whose words are more canon than lead writers though, since they build the world and direct all other writers. If we don't follow their words I guess we all just have to live with our headcanons about the game and believe they are right no matter what canon says.

 

Idk, I just disagree ^^

 

We go by the words that actually make it into the games and the lore. The Sten's words were first, therefore his words are the established lore. The Iron Bull's words came later and contradicted the established lore. So one of these two characters is incorrect. The likelihood is that The Iron Bull is incorrect because he specializes in lies, is conflicted about the Qun's teachings, and is suspected of being Tal-Vashoth already by his superiors. The Sten on the other hand is devout, and was eventually promoted to Arishok.

 

If Weeks makes a statement that contradicts the established lore, then he is incorrect, not the lore. If a new storyline contradicts the established lore, then the new story is incorrect, unless it provides proof that the established lore was incorrect for valid reasons. In that case it is a rewrite and the new story becomes established lore.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wynne and Morrigan would be turned into a Saarebas, which isn't seen as a person but merely a thing. Saarebas literally means "dangerous thing". So I don't think Wynne or Morrigan seeing themselves as women should be their biggest issue about the Qun. 

[Dai Grepher]

Why? Besides being a waste of resources, Wynne, if she identified as a man, wouldn't be breaking any taboos of Qunari society. Their primary issue is with women acting in roles perceived to be under the male domain. If Wynne identifies as a man, and acts like one, then Wynne would be meeting all requirements. The issues only arise when someone declares themselves a woman, as well as some masculine role. Krem is maintaining his identity as a man, as well as acting out the role of a man.

 

And if she identified as an artisan instead of a mage, would the Qunari accept that as well?

 

The idea that the Qunari would accept Wynne as a male if she identified as such is just your opinion. There is no proof the Qunari would do this, just The Iron Bull's unsubstantiated and highly suspect claim.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence from The Sten that the Qunari would not accept Wynne if she claimed to be a man. The Qunari would re-educate her, as they do with all people who do not accept their assigned roles.

 

I agree with Hanako that Wynne is a bad example. She would be mutilated and placed in chains. So we should probably stick with Krem as the example.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No.

And for those talking about Gaider, he is no longer part of Dragon Age. His opinion is not canon, even if you thought it was before.

Yes, The Sten and The Iron Bull have different perspectives on the Qun. The Sten's is correct. The Iron Bull's is not.

We're not citing Gaider's opinion. He just happened to be the guy who offered an explanation that made all of this stuff work together.

There's no need for a retcon. There's no need for creative interpretation. In fact, I would argue that creative interpretation is what caused the problem in the first place.

We have to be careful, when interpreting the remarks of both Sten and Bull to do so strictly from a Qunari perspective.

[phantomrachie]

Because of their certainty. Or Certainty with a capital C. That's what their whole philosophy revolves around.

 

Why listen to the people who are no more certain than Sarcastic Hawke?

 

Because not listening to them would be like forming an opinion of the Chantry based on the understanding of Templars alone. Their role means they are only taught certain things, so without speaking to priests, lay people, Mages etc you won't gain a proper understanding of the Chantry.

 

It's the same with the Qun, only listening to 1 of the 3 parts of the Qun doesn't allow you to fully understand it. 

[Dai Grepher]

We're not citing Gaider's opinion. He just happened to be the guy who offered an explanation that made all of this stuff work together.

There's no need for a retcon. There's no need for creative interpretation. In fact, I would argue that creative interpretation is what caused the problem in the first place.

We have to be careful, when interpreting the remarks of both Sten and Bull to do so strictly from a Qunari perspective.

 

I disagree. Gaider's post just confused the issue even more. Nothing of what he wrote makes The Sten's and The Iron Bull's accounts consistent in any way, shape, or form.