316 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I like to think Iron Bull is just an idiot or idealistic when it comes to the Qun.

[Winged Silver]

And if she identified as an artisan instead of a mage, would the Qunari accept that as well?

 

The idea that the Qunari would accept Wynne as a male if she identified as such is just your opinion. There is no proof the Qunari would do this, just The Iron Bull's unsubstantiated and highly suspect claim.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence from The Sten that the Qunari would not accept Wynne if she claimed to be a man. The Qunari would re-educate her, as they do with all people who do not accept their assigned roles.

 

Being a mage is a different matter. Someone's gender identity doesn't dictate how susceptible they may be to possession by demons, which is a very real threat in Thedas. While I do not agree with the Qun's treatment of mages, I do believe that their choice in action stems from the possibility that one's mage status can affect others. Someone identifying as a man or woman is making a personal decision, and wouldn't negatively affect others in the society. 

 

Why would Sten's opinion matter more than the Iron Bull's? You may believe his claims are 'highly suspect' but that is your opinion, and currently not considered an in-game fact. Additionally, Krem wouldn't care about the Iron Bull's religious views on his identity. So if the Iron Bull states that the Qun is accepting of individuals who act as their identities, it's likely because that is actually what the Qun believes (and not just something he says to make Krem feel better, or whatever). 

 

And what evidence? I've interpreted Sten's statements to mean that one must fulfill their role. If they are a man, and do a man's role, then nothing is out of place. It is only when someone makes a point of saying they are a woman and a warrior that Sten brings up the Qun's issue with that. Krem says he is a man. Krem does a man's role. So the Qun is satisfied.

[Dai Grepher]

Because not listening to them would be like forming an opinion of the Chantry based on the understanding of Templars alone. Their role means they are only taught certain things, so without speaking to priests, lay people, Mages etc you won't gain a proper understanding of the Chantry.

 

It's the same with the Qun, only listening to 1 of the 3 parts of the Qun doesn't allow you to fully understand it. 

 

The Chant is left to interpretation. The Qun is not.
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gaider didn't write Sten or the qunari in da2, Mary Kirby did, he just retconned everything sten said and made up an explanation after the fact. His right, but they were more interesting as savage warriors who wanted you to join the Qun or die.

It was made fairly obvious even in DA:O that that wasn't all there was to them. Genitivi had been to Qunari lands and said that female qunari are nothing like you'd expect.

 

Another thing I was wondering: Krem is able to be a warrior without confusing the crap out of IB because he identifies as male and is (for any purpose relevant to anyone who isn't ****** him or telling him to grow his beard out) male. The thing is I know two transgender people who don't identify as either gender: one of them looks, sounds, and acts enough like the gender she was assigned at birth that the Qun would probably pigeonhole her there, but the other one answers to "they" and looks almost completely androgynous; I think they were designated male at birth but I honestly couldn't tell you. What the hell would the Qun do with them?

[AresKeith]

The Chant is left to interpretation. The Qun is not.
 

 

And we still don't have a full understanding of the Qun because haven't seen all there is to them yet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And we still don't have a full understanding of the Qun because haven't seen all there is to them yet

We have seen and heard enough to know it must be eliminated though. I mean the philosophy, not those who are under it's control. 

[AresKeith]

We have seen and heard enough to know it must be eliminated though. I mean the philosophy, not those who are under it's control. 

 

Eh, I'm fine with just keeping them on their own little Island and homeland 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think we'll have a choice. It'll be like purging a Borg cube.

We've been able to do similar things in previous Bioware games.

 

Eh, I'm fine with just keeping them on their own little Island and homeland 

I'm not. They still do terrible things to their own people. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I disagree. Gaider's post just confused the issue even more. Nothing of what he wrote makes The Sten's and The Iron Bull's accounts consistent in any way, shape, or form.

They don't contradict each other. Why is anyone confused?

[Dai Grepher]

Being a mage is a different matter. Someone's gender identity doesn't dictate how susceptible they may be to possession by demons, which is a very real threat in Thedas. While I do not agree with the Qun's treatment of mages, I do believe that their choice in action stems from the possibility that one's mage status can affect others. Someone identifying as a man or woman is making a personal decision, and wouldn't negatively affect others in the society. 

 

Why would Sten's opinion matter more than the Iron Bull's? You may believe his claims are 'highly suspect' but that is your opinion, and currently not considered an in-game fact. Additionally, Krem wouldn't care about the Iron Bull's religious views on his identity. So if the Iron Bull states that the Qun is accepting of individuals who act as their identities, it's likely because that is actually what the Qun believes (and not just something he says to make Krem feel better, or whatever). 

 

And what evidence? I've interpreted Sten's statements to mean that one must fulfill their role. If they are a man, and do a man's role, then nothing is out of place. It is only when someone makes a point of saying they are a woman and a warrior that Sten brings up the Qun's issue with that. Krem says he is a man. Krem does a man's role. So the Qun is satisfied.

 

So you agree that claiming to be something does not make it so. The Qunari believe the same. You believe claiming to be the opposite gender would not affect anyone else in society negatively, just as you believe mages do not need to be treated as serrebas. But the Qunari would disagree with you, and that is the topic of this discussion, what the Qun instructs.

 

The Sten's testimony has more weight because he is devout in the Qun. The Iron Bull is conflicted about it and is under suspicion of being Tal-Vashoth. His title means "liar". That puts his credibility into question. The Iron Bull also had reason to lie about how the Qun perceives gender. His reason would be to put Krem's mind at ease. The Sten on the other hand had no reason to lie or misrepresent the Qun. In fact he had an obligation to portray the Qun as truthfully as possible, being among foreigners. He admitted his mistakes and owned them. He rebuked companions for perceived missteps without apology or care for how they would think of him for it. The Iron Bull however reveals himself almost immediately to those he has been sent to infiltrate secretly and speaks to others as if he is one of them. This is because infiltration is The Iron Bull's role. He is tasked with cozying up to others and acting as their friend. That necessarily involves telling them what they want to hear, and that MAY involve lying about things, including the Qun's true teachings.

 

You interpret The Sten's words to mean something they do not. That is the problem here. You are projecting your own thoughts and opinions onto the Qun, or at least The Sten's account of it. He said females cannot be warriors. He said females cannot be males. To try leads only to frustration.

[Dai Grepher]

They don't contradict each other. Why is anyone confused?

 

Women cannot be men. - The Sten

 

Women can be men. - The Iron Bull
 

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Women cannot be men. - The Sten

 

Women can be men. - The Iron Bull
 

 

Krem isn't a woman. That's the point you are missing.

[Winged Silver]

So you agree that claiming to be something does not make it so. The Qunari believe the same. You believe claiming to be the opposite gender would not affect anyone else in society negatively, just as you believe mages do not need to be treated as serrebas. But the Qunari would disagree with you, and that is the topic of this discussion, what the Qun instructs.

 

The Sten's testimony has more weight because he is devout in the Qun. The Iron Bull is conflicted about it and is under suspicion of being Tal-Vashoth. His title means "liar". That puts his credibility into question. The Iron Bull also had reason to lie about how the Qun perceives gender. His reason would be to put Krem's mind at ease. The Sten on the other hand had no reason to lie or misrepresent the Qun. In fact he had an obligation to portray the Qun as truthfully as possible, being among foreigners. He admitted his mistakes and owned them. He rebuked companions for perceived missteps without apology or care for how they would think of him for it. The Iron Bull however reveals himself almost immediately to those he has been sent to infiltrate secretly and speaks to others as if he is one of them. This is because infiltration is The Iron Bull's role. He is tasked with cozying up to others and acting as their friend. That necessarily involves telling them what they want to hear, and that MAY involve lying about things, including the Qun's true teachings.

 

You interpret The Sten's words to mean something they do not. That is the problem here. You are projecting your own thoughts and opinions onto the Qun, or at least The Sten's account of it. He said females cannot be warriors. He said females cannot be males. To try leads only to frustration.

 

I said that being a mage is different than being a man or woman. Being a man/woman has no effect on society outside of one's own personal sphere. Being a mage, however, has the potential to have a negative impact on others. I believe that the Qunari take action against those who are born mages, regardless of how they identify, because being a mage has the potential to harm others, regardless of one's own personal feelings on it. However, I do not believe the Qunari would take issue with someone identifying as a man or woman, provided they fit into the role the Qun has slated for each gender. 

 

The Iron Bull has no real need of Krem, so I don't see why he would lie about the Qun accepting transgender people. Additionally, the Iron Bull is someone who has voluntarily submitted to re-education. While others may perceive the Bull's action as those of a Tal-Vashoth, I would argue that the Iron Bull believes whole-heartedly in the Qun, and wouldn't voluntarily compromise its set of morals. Now if Krem were someone in a position of power, or a keeper of secrets, than your argument that the Iron Bull is lying to Krem might hold more weight, but as it is, Krem is little more than a swordsman. 

 

I think you are interpreting Sten's words to mean something they do not. Sten said that 'trying' would lead to frustration, but in Krem's case, he isn't trying. He is a man, despite what his biological beginnings were. He has embraced the role of being a man, and the social attachments that comes with it. 

[o Ventus]

They don't contradict each other. Why is anyone confused?

 

Because people are dumb and don't know any better.

[Winged Silver]

But the point people are countering with is that Qunari are such sticklers for strict categories and the "true nature" of every person and object. That's the essence of the Qun.

 

So it annoys people that this has changed. It's saying that the Qunari allow for self-definition/self-discovery more than what was said before. Where are the limits now? All the rules are thrown out, just from the implications of this.

 

It seems more like the Qunari are sticklers for set categories. If one fulfills a role within the category, in all aspects, than there is no issue. So Krem, identifying as a man, and doing manly things, fits into the category of a man. A female warden, however, has a foot in two different categories (as perceived by the Qun). That is where the issue arises I think. 

 

I think it's less about self discovery and more about maintaining a role that follows the rules of the Qun. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Women cannot be men. - The Sten

Women can be men. - The Iron Bull

You've paraphrased both, and understood neither.

[DementedSheep]

But the point people are countering with is that Qunari are such sticklers for strict categories and the "true nature" of every person and object. That's the essence of the Qun.

 

So it annoys people that this has changed. It's saying that the Qunari allow for self-definition/self-discovery more than what was said before. Where are the limits now? All the rules are thrown out, just from the implications of this.

Only if they actually consider being transexual  self-definition which from the sounds of it they don't. It's the difference between thinking its a women choosing to be a man and thinking its a man born into the wrong body. 

[DementedSheep]

In that case, it makes the Qunari more evolved than 21st century western culture. That bothers people too. Because they're falling way behind elsewhere.

 

Maybe it's supposed to be ironic. 

Not really, older cultures have acknowledged the existence of transsexuals and third genders before and the evolution of culture isn't on a neat straight line in which you go through stages of becoming more enlightened. You can easily have cultures whose thinking falls more in line with what we regard as progressive in some ways but not in others. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

In every respect that matters to the Qun, Krem is male. No one ever claims otherwise.

The Qun simply demands consistency. If you do one male thing, then you may only do male things. If you do one female things, then you may only do female things.

People who find this confusing are making the mistake of assuming that biological sex is a relevant criterion. It isn't. Perhaps it would be easier to understand like this:

Imagine a society wherein all roles are tied to gender. Some roles are male-only and all other roles are female only. There are no roles that allow both or either - each role is assigned to one gender only.

Define 10 people and assign them to roles on this way, but don't assign them biological sex. Leave that undetermined. Understand how the gender roles still make sense.

Now assign them biological sex, but do it randomly (actually randomly - flip a coin for each). Understand how the gender roles still make sense.