316 réponses à ce sujet

[Karai9]

And what evidence? I've interpreted Sten's statements to mean that one must fulfill their role. If they are a man, and do a man's role, then nothing is out of place. It is only when someone makes a point of saying they are a woman and a warrior that Sten brings up the Qun's issue with that. Krem says he is a man. Krem does a man's role. So the Qun is satisfied.

 

 

I think you are interpreting Sten's words to mean something they do not. Sten said that 'trying' would lead to frustration, but in Krem's case, he isn't trying. He is a man, despite what his biological beginnings were. He has embraced the role of being a man, and the social attachments that comes with it. 

 

This^ a thousand times over! If I could give you one million likes Winged Silver, I would.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Now I'm wondering why the Warden was singled out? What did she do that made Sten question her warrior/male status? He barely even knows her, for one. But the player could be living up to all kinds of "male" role criteria.. and he'll still call them out anyways.

What is she wearing? What pronouns do others use to refer to her?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Now I'm wondering why the Warden was singled out? What did she do that made Sten question her warrior/male status? He barely even knows her, for one. But the player could be living up to all kinds of "male" role criteria.. and he'll still call them out anyways.

Didn't Gaider admit they hadn't considered transsexuals when they wrote Origins? 

[AresKeith]

Now I'm wondering why the Warden was singled out? What did she do that made Sten question her warrior/male status? He barely even knows her, for one. But the player could be living up to all kinds of "male" role criteria.. and he'll still call them out anyways.

 

My guess is that the Female Warden was "acting like a woman" when they aren't fighting 

[BansheeOwnage]

Not really, older cultures have acknowledged the existence of transsexuals and third genders before and the evolution of culture isn't on a neat straight line in which you go through stages of becoming more enlightened. You can easily have cultures whose thinking falls more in line with what we regard as progressive in some ways but not in others. 

To add to this: Overall-Thedas is quite "evolved" when it comes to sexism, skin-colour racism, and homophobia, as others have said. That makes me wonder why people think that the Qun has do be "devolved" in every way. To me, that's unrealistic. In fact, I think the Qun is "evolved" regarding transgender people for entirely the wrong reasons, as they still maintain the sexism of the Qun. It also makes me confused as to why David Gaider thought same-sex marriage in DA would not fit, because Thedas has less of a problem with it than our world, yet it's legal in parts of ours. That's the disconnect for me. But he's not in charge anymore, so who knows what will happen now?

 

Also: I tend to avoid these kinds of threads for the headaches they cause, but people are making surprisingly good points. Good job!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

It also makes me confused as to why David Gaider thought same-sex marriage in DA would not fit, because Thedas has less of a problem with it than our world, yet it's legal in parts of ours. That's the disconnect for me. But he's not in charge anymore, so who knows what will happen now?

I hope under Patrick that marriage is allowed. 

 

Hello Banshee. Haven't seen you in a while.

[AresKeith]

Didn't Gaider admit they hadn't considered transsexuals when they wrote Origins? 

 

I don't remember Gaider mentioning that

[BansheeOwnage]

 

 

I hope under Patrick that marriage is allowed. 

 

Hello Banshee. Haven't seen you in a while.

 

I do too. Obviously some companions wouldn't want to get married, but that's fine, it's a different issue. And hello!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't remember Gaider mentioning that

Here:

 

Be careful how you picture the process of becoming aqun-athlok. If you picture someone announcing it, and suddenly the Tamassrans fall all over themselves to abide by that person's wishes, that's not really in keeping with what we've established about Qunari society...and neither is it something Iron Bull implies when he explains the existence of the term. From what you've said, I think the hitch is probably your perception of it as a choice.

 

Insofar as the Grey Warden in DAO went, Sten wouldn't have made that assumption because the female Warden neither presented herself as male nor claimed to be one. Granted, he doesn't know everything about human society, but by the time he brings the subject up he's known the Warden long enough to realize she's female...which makes no sense to him.

 

Of course, it's also fair to say that aqun-athlok was not even a concept to us at that time, which is absolutely true. Even so, when the writers discussed the concept as a group, we realized it did not contradict anything we'd already established. It made sense to us, after all, that a society which established so much emphasis on gender might also have a more nuanced understanding of it, and that this didn't contradict all the other ways in which their society is extremely rigid.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

And they use the Qunari to introduce it now. Great.

 

I think that's caused more confusion than necessary.

 

I think that if everyone followed the "We are who we want to be" philosophy we wouldn't need to discuss if a woman can be a warrior, or if a man can be a teacher. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I do too. Obviously some companions wouldn't want to get married, but that's fine, it's a different issue. And hello!

Yeah, and others would. And it could lead to interesting stories. 

 

We should play games sometime, but maybe take that discussion to PMs.

[Namea]

1) Why would the Qunari care about what Krem thinks? If Krem joined the Qun or was enslaved they would think of Krem as being a women. Period. Why would they care about what he(she) thinks?

 

No, they wouldn't. He identifies as male, therefore they would see him as male, not female. Sten says those things to the warden because while the female warden fights, she is female. There is no option in origins to identify as male unless you make a male warden. Therefore with a female identifying person the statements he makes are correct. However, Krem is not female regardless of what is (or isn't) in his pants. Again, just because the Qun is backwards in some ways doesn't mean it is in all ways. Their interpretation of gender may not be as black and white as you think. 

 

Not to mention that anything other than what is presented in the official media and by the creators is nothing but headcanon and Gaider has already clarified this point. 

[DementedSheep]

In this case, it's not some ways. It's almost every way. Except one.

 

That's what I call ironic. I can't help but think the writers are just being smartasses. Not actually making intelligent sociological commentary.

Do you know all the nuisances of the Qunari culture to know its only in one way? The Qunari aren't primitive, in fact in some ways they seem more advanced than most (they have gunpowder) and their culture is not your typical regressive (for lack of a better term) society. They just don't have much in the way of personal freedom as they view everyone as having a wider duty to the society as whole and much of their beliefs are centred around that particular point. They have different gender roles but  don't seem to consider one superior to the other and they also don't give a **** about who you sleep with. They don't seem to see other races to the horned one that makes up the bulk of the Qunari as inferior and aren't making them slaves (at least not any-more than everyone else in the Qun) nor have I seen any suggestion there is a glass ceiling for them which would make them less racist than the rest of thedas. While the brainwashing is horrible Bull dose make the point that in Olais they would just chop your head off for the same thing.

 

Edited to be (hopefully) readable. 

[DementedSheep]

I'm comparing it to real life 21st century western culture. I said that earlier. It doesn't matter if they have gunpowder.

 

I just think the writers are being smartasses for using the Qunari of all things to "one up" our own modern world. You guys think it's cute and clever. I think it's insulting.

I think you're making an assumption about their motives and ignoring all the other reasons this could be the case just so you can be mad about it. Gunpowder was not the main point.

[Winged Silver]

This^ a thousand times over! If I could give you one million likes Winged Silver, I would.

 

That's very kind of you to say I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way XD

[Paul E Dangerously]

I call it this topic "giant can of worms" and just shrug my shoulders. Bioware's taken their stance and that's just fine, as clumsy and as oddly implemented as it may be.

 

It isn't the first retcon to fit it, and it won't be the last.

[PsychoBlonde]

Inclusion is great, but it is honestly a bit of a retcon. I mean, try and explain the idea to any medieval warrior society in all of history? 

 

Except that many primitive societies in RL actually had this sort of thing, although from what I've read males living as women was far more common.  But, also from what I've read, it's enormously more common for biological males to have different gender than for females, possibly due to hormones or womb immune system.

[DementedSheep]

I thought you were missing my point by mentioning gunpowder. Because I was comparing them to the real world. Not the rest of Thedas.

 

The Qunari have seemingly come about a very sophisticated view on gender and how people identify themselves (in general)... One that the modern world isn't close to yet. That's what I find a bit insulting. 

Why? As I said before in real life you have had old cultures with transexuals and third genders which is something not widely accepted now. We like to think that the modern word is completely superior in every way to everything that come before but that isn't the case and this is not an insult. Also I doubt every individual member of the Qun actually is accepting of them even if the official word from top in the Qun is that it's accepted.

 

I don't think Qun having a concept of transsexuals is suppose to come across as "look! even that evil group that brainwashes people is better than us!". The Qun are suppose to have a very different way of viewing the world which sometimes leads to good (depending on your opinion I suppose) things and sometimes leads to terrible things. They are still scary as **** and I wouldn't want them anywhere near me but things like this make sense with how they think and fleshes them out a bit more than them being that evil race.