Okay. Sure. My opinion. And potentially that of the Qun. Why would someone's decision to identify as man or woman affect society? I don't believe there's ever been a moment in game where someone of the Qun specifically states "You saying you're a man and acting like a man even though you were born a woman is tearing the fabric of society apart". And when you say "These are you beliefs, not the Qunari's" where are you getting that? Is the tome of the Ashkaari Koslun a rare codex we can pick up and read? Because if not, than all we can do is speculate to the best of our abilities given the limited nature of the evidence presented. That is primarily why I use the phrase "I believe", seeing as I have no way to confirm everything. And neither do you.
Krem is not Qunari, so your comparison of the baker isn't really applicable. However, on that note, the Qunari who is placed into the role of a baker (which is a woman's job in the Qun, implied by Solas discussing seeing a female Qunari baker put a pinch of sugar in the center of each loaf, as her own small rebellion (if you talk to him about his journeys into the Fade)) is placed there based on an evaluation of physical and mental traits. While this baker may wish to be a warrior, it has been determined that by said traits, this individual would not be suitable as a warrior. Thus, his being a warrior would be a detriment in that he would not be realizing his full potential in his contributions to his society. And this is just hypothetically going with the idea that a baker would be a male in Qunari society, to fit your argument. What must be remembered is that the Qun takes a different view on what harms a society. In our own society, we very much believe in letting a person self determine their fate. This does not appear to be the case in the Qunari society.
You are describing possibilities, and not facts. While these may be the case, I do not interpret his actions to equate your assertions. If the Iron Bull is describing what he thinks the Qun should be like, than that may play into something we do see in our own world very often - various degrees of religious fervor. It is not unthinkable that there would be different levels of devotion amongst the Qunari. And one simply being more devoted than another does not immediately equate 'bad religion'. I think if you made that argument, there would be many people of different faiths who would find fault with that line of thinking. And, as I said before, since Krem doesn't care much about the Qun, there would be little reason for the Iron Bull to lie/half truth about the Aqun-Athlok. Now if Krem had expressed an interest in game about joining the Qun, this might have more meaning. But he doesn't. So there's not really any reason for the Bull to pretend that his religion would accept Krem, if they didn't.
You keep calling the Iron Bull unreliable, but this is solely based on your interpretation of events. If he were truly uncertain of the Qun, he would not have submitted himself for re-education. His willingness to do so, even knowing what happened to those who underwent it, is indicative that he truly believed in the Qun. Additionally, we've only had close contact with two individuals of the Qunari faith, each of whom were quite different. But that difference does not immediately indicate that one is 'more correct' than the other. Until we've actually visited Par Vollen, this is something we will only be able to speculate about.
"A female cannot be a male" but Krem isn't a female under the Qun. Krem says he is a man. Krem does manly things. Therefore, he fulfills the role as set by the Qun. The Qun takes issues with women doing manly things. Krem isn't being a warrior woman. He is being a male warrior, which falls into the right category. If you watch the video I linked earlier, Sten says the female warden must either be lying about being a woman, or a warrior. In Krem's case, he isn't being a woman, he is being a male who fights.
Potentially that of the Qun, yes.
You are asking my personal opinion? Well, assuming the fabric of society is the reason the Qun dictates gender roles, and not just some arbitrary dictate of Koslun, then perhaps the rationale is that certain roles are filled better by certain sexes. Therefore they are defined by gender/sex. However, if a male were to claim to be female or even act female in order to fill a different role, or if a female were to pose as a male to fulfill those roles, it could conceivably create problems. First, the role would not be fulfilled adequately and the role would fail because of the faulty placement of the person posing as the opposite sex. Second, if such behavior were tolerated of some individuals, then others in society may attempt this as well in order to escape the responsibilities of their own roles rather than do as required and embrace their roles faithfully. This would of course lead to the complete collapse of the civilization and the "body" that is the Qun. Could you imagine Qunari soldiers claiming to be female in order to avoid battles for whatever reason? Intolerable.
We agree that those are your beliefs. There is no detailed source in the game explaining this issue. All we have to go on are the words of The Sten and The Iron Bull. My only point was that you were projecting your beliefs onto the Qun. While it is possible you are correct about the Qun, there is no evidence that you are correct. I on the other hand, do have evidence. The Sten's words are clear. His credibility, solid. The Iron Bull's words are sly. His credibility, in doubt. The most likely case is that The Sten is correct about the belief structure in which he has full confidence. It is unlikely The Iron Bull is correct about the belief structure he has strayed from in the past, questioned, wants to change, and does not want to see spread to Orlais or Ferelden.
I wasn't comparing Krem to the baker. I was citing an example of how the Qunari do not tolerate a baker claiming to be a warrior even if he is male. It is therefore less likely they would tolerate Krem claiming to be a male warrior. The point is about the Qunari belief system. Also, baker could be a gender-neutral role. I don't believe anything states it is female-only. The Qunari do not let them self-determine their fate. So it stands to reason they would not let someone like Krem determine that they are male warriors either.
They can find fault with my line of thinking all they want. In such a debate I would quote scripture to prove their religious fervor to be weak and their beliefs to be incorrect. It is the same case with the Qun. Take Gatt for example. He and The Iron Bull know each other and have a history. Gatt outright confesses that he struggles with some parts of the Qun, and that he remains loyal to the Qun because he believes that if he leaves then the parts he doesn't like will never change. This proves that Gatt believes the Qun can and should be changed. Does his friend The Iron Bull believe the same? I don't think that is ever confirmed outright, but there may have been a part of the game where The Iron Bull suggested it. So again, can Hissrad be trusted to portray the Qun accurately? Krem may or may not have asked about the Qun's position on transgenders, but The Iron Bull mentions it regardless. The reasons I stated are still possibilities, and Krem even voices that the Qunari might not be all bad based on what The Iron Bull said about the matter. Also keep in mind that The Iron Bull mentions this in response to the Inquisitor asking about it. So that could have been his reason for talking about it, to smooth things over before any feelings got hurt. The Iron Bull is quite protective of Krem. Questioning him about this later proves this. The Iron Bull insists that Krem is a man...
And this reminds me of something else The Iron Bull says. In my mage playthrough he says that he has horns, my mage can shoot fireballs out of his butt, and that because of this they aren't in a position to go around deciding what is normal. But isn't this exactly what the Qun does? Decide what is truth?
His reason for submitting to reeducation could have been that he was desperate to find purpose and place in the world, or to alleviate his guilt. Also, he underwent reeducation years before the events of Inquisition. He could have changed since then, and it is his statements in the game that we are questioning here. Perhaps at the time of reeducation The Iron Bull would not have seen Krem as a man. Also, if he truly believed in the Qun during the events of Inquisition, then there would be no choice to save The Chargers or let them die. The Iron Bull would always choose to let them die. I agree that the difference between The Sten and The Iron Bull does not indicate one is correct while the other is not. My claim was that what each one said contradict, and thus one must be correct and the other incorrect. Based on their character traits, I believe The Sten is the more likely Qunari to accurately represent the Qun.
"But Krem isn't a female under the Qun." Your opinion, not the Qun's. As I pointed out, merely claiming to be something and filling the roles is not enough. Roles are determined by those in charge, not the individuals who fill them. If The Sten says the Warden must be lying about being a woman, he is referring to her biological sex. He is basically saying the Warden is either a biological male, or not a warrior. This is because biological females cannot be warriors under the Qun.
Also, as I wrote in another post, if a female can become a warrior simply by claiming to be a male and living as such, then the rule banning females from being warriors is completely worthless and unnecessary. There is no reason to have it, and thus no reason for females to pretend to be males. Now, personally, I know that the Qun is a lie, but the Qunari don't believe that it is. Either they uphold their rules in full, or they dance around their rules in order to achieve what the rules are designed to prevent. They violate the spirit of the rule.
It's like having a rule that says only mules can carry packages for delivery, but we will allow the Qunari who want to deliver packages themselves to do so by merely recognizing them as mules first. Also, this requires them to sleep in the stables in order to consistently fill the role of a mule.
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